Thoughts and Prayers

[.NJ]

Please keep the victims and their family members of the school shooting incident today in your thoughts.

This is truly an unimaginable tragedy.

 

[Kenny]

Two things have been tossing around my head all day.
First:
When RR emptied out the mental health budgets to fund "Star Wars" and other military buildups, he created a system with no help for the innocent victims of mental disease, and we have been paying a dear price ever since.

Second:
Somebody posted this in the comments section of a Y! news article about the state of mind of the shooter.

Morgan Freeman's brilliant take on what happened yesterday :

"You want to know why. This may sound cynical, but here's why.


It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names, but do you know the name of a single *victim* of Columbine? Disturbed
people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody.

CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next.

You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem. You can help by turning off the news.

I wonder how much of what he is saying hits home.

Lets keep these names in our hearts:
Charlotte Bacon, 6
Daniel Barden, 7
Rachel Davino, 29
Olivia Engel, 6
Josephine Gay, 7
Ana M. Marquez-Greene, 6
Dylan Hockley, 6
Dawn Hocksprung, 47
Madeline F. Hsu, 6
Catherine V. Hubbard, 6
Chase Kowalski, 7
Jesse Lewis, 6
James Mattioli, 6,
Grace McDonnell, 7
Anne Marie Murphy, 52
Emile Parker, 6
Jack Pinto, 6
Noah Pozner, 6
Caroline Previdi, 6
Jessica Rekos, 6
Avielle Richman, 6
Lauren Russeau, 30
Mary Sherlach, 56
Benjamin Wheeler, 6
Allison N. Wyatt, 6

And his mother, Nancy, 52


Peace,
Cy

 

[enlytend]

So why is this study correct when there are dozens of studies out there that say the opposite.

Which study is right and which is wrong? What does your common sense tell you?

I'd need to see detailed data about the studies in question to tell you that. Organizations/companies often sponsor "studies" which are heavily weighted to back up a view they support. Same thing for "polls" - structure, wording and choice of answers can make the results unreliable.

Enlytend says: "Fear of god or prayer in schools doesn't ward off mental illness." That may be true but it's a much better idea than arming teachers with guns or putting armed guards inside schools as some are advocating.

Putting prayer in the schools is innocuous and useless. Arming teachers and posting armed guards is potentially harmful and just as useless.

Pressuring the media to act responsibly - play down details on the shooter and don't wallow in these tragedies for weeks on end - that would be helpful.

As for "Guns don't kill people ..." Of course you could kill someone with a vehicle or a heavy blunt object, etc., the difference is guns are a tool designed to kill. I have no problem with people owning guns to hunt or for sport, but there's no plausible reason someone like this kid's mother should have the types of weapons used in the crime lying around their house.

How ARE the gun laws structured in Europe? Just curious.

 

[GILSAN]

I'm glad to see people blasting the Media's behavior in regard to this and other similar tragedies. As some of you know I'm probably the biggest critic of the Media in this forum. I criticized them heavily for ther biased handling of the Presidential Elections, but unfortunately I was blasted on so many occasions for criticizing the media.. still trying to figure that out

But no one's talking about that very taboo subject called GUN CONTROL, which leads me to believe that the majority are NOT in favor of changing some of the Gun Laws.

I know it won't be easy to have some really meaningful gun control, since half if not more of Congress has been bought or paid for by the NRA. The other half of Congress has been bought by Wall Street so the Status Quo will remain until a truly massive killing spree happens or another massive Financial collapse happens again. Then all those 270 million arms will come in really handy to start a civil war.

How ARE the gun laws structured in Europe? Just curious.

Like I said before, it's a cultural thing. In the US it's really easy and legal to carry a firearm, while in Europe it is generally against the law to carry or possess a gun, and most people feel uneasy about having arms. As an example I personally have never owned or used any kind of gun in my life and the last time I physically saw one was about 35 years ago, when I lived in California in the 70's.

Here's part of an article that explains gun laws in Western Europe:

European countries have come together to set a legal framework that strictly defines gun ownership. As a result, the European Council Directive of June 18th, 1991 provides the key legal information regarding gun control in the EU. It prohibits the private possession of fully automatic weapons, and regulates the possession of semi-automatic ones and handguns.

This regulation relies on a system of license. People who want to acquire a weapon need to obtain a gun owner’s license. This license is only delivered after a background check has been led and legitimate reasons have been provided. Only licensed people can legally acquire a firearm or ammunition.

Let’s take the example of France. To obtain such a license, people have to practice shooting during at least six months in a club of the official French Federation of Shooting. After the Federation has given its favorable opinion, the police investigate on criminal or mental records. If the police do not find anything, they give an authorization valid for five years.

The owner must then buy his gun in a limited period of three months if he doesn’t want his authorization to expire. There is also a limitation regarding the number: a maximum of twelve guns can be detained, while in Norway, such restriction does not exist. Since the French law of 1995, it is nowadays compulsory to keep guns into a locked safe.

In France, Norway and the UK, the right to private gun ownership is not guaranteed by the Constitution. Moreover, in each country, sale of guns and firearms must be registered and recorded.

In case of illicit possession of firearms, the maximum penalty will be seven years prison and a fine in France while in Norway the maximum penalty would only be 3 months.

In Portugal few people have arms. Hunter can get shotguns and rifles but they must belong to a Hunting Club and need a special license from the Police, plus a certificate from a doctor and a whole bunch of other restrictions.

Semi-automatic and automatic weapons are illegal here. Only the Police and Armed Forces can use them.

Any American gun lover who came to live in Portugal would freak out at how difficult it is to legally get a firearm, in comparison to the laws that are so lax in the US.

 

[enlytend]

Most of those restrictions sound very reasonable to me. Especially the parts about automatic and semi-automatic weapons. And keeping guns in a locked safe.

Illicitly obtaining them is another problem - it's easy to regulate the law-abiding, the criminals not so much. However if certain types of weapons become unavailable on the legal market, it could affect supply all around.

Mental health care and awareness are closely related issues that also need to be addressed. That system is pretty badly broken.

 

[Archangel]

Heads-up about the Morgan Freeman statement: It's likely fake http://www.inquisitr.com/440462/morgan-freemans-newtown-statement-almost-definitely-a-hoax/

 

[GILSAN]

Most of those restrictions sound very reasonable to me. Especially the parts about automatic and semi-automatic weapons. And keeping guns in a locked safe.

Yes... so easy to implement in Europe, but so complicated in the US. What a shame... it could save you at least 10.000 lives per year.

Mental health care and awareness are closely related issues that also need to be addressed. That system is pretty badly broken.

Because most European countries have Universal Health Care that includes Mental Health care, we don't have the same situation as the US.

But this is an even better reason to restrict gun sales to many people including those with mental problems. From what I understand many of these famous cases were done by young people who had been bullied so badly that one day they just snapped and went berserk. Would you classify these youngsters as mentally unstable or just victims of a society that has created a generation that has little respect for life and very few morals.

Actually, from looking at his picture it wouldn't surprise me that this skinny 20 year old killer was a victim of bullying. His mother apparently removed him from school and game him home schooling.

I may be wrong, but my common sense makes me believe strongly that all the violence in Hollywood movies, TV and Video Games has a negative influence on these youngsters.

When you have some time do the following experiment; Watch TV for a few hours 8at night) and count how many acts of violence you see and also count how many acts of love or kindness. You many be very surprised at the results.

 

[DU]

Because most European countries have Universal Health Care that includes Mental Health care, we don't have the same situation as the US.

That area of health has seen significant cut backs. It's not much better than the US in the UK.

"Care in the Community" - essentially dressed up as improving lives by getting rid of Victorian type asylums etc. but ended up being "go take care of yourself".

Although this was started in the UK in the 50s it's no surprise that Thatcher wanted to take credit for the reforms.

 

[GILSAN]

That area of health has seen significant cut backs. It's not much better than the US in the UK.

"Care in the Community" - essentially dressed up as improving lives by getting rid of Victorian type asylums etc. but ended up being "go take care of yourself".

Although this was started in the UK in the 50s it's no surprise that Thatcher wanted to take credit for the reforms.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the British National Health Service has been milked by foreigners for years. All you need is to be living in the UK for 1 year and you get free hospital care. No wonder the UK has been invaded by millions of immigrants.

Now you even have Health tourists who get treated in Britain for free:

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...reatment-cost-taxpayer-40m.html#ixzz2FGHjvYoD

No wonder there are so many cut backs now

 

[enlytend]

Because most European countries have Universal Health Care that includes Mental Health care, we don't have the same situation as the US.

Would be nice if we had it. IMO.

Lots of people were bullied. Most of them don't snap. We're all exposed to the same violence in media/entertainment. Most of us don't snap. To put it in perspective, people have been amused by violent games for centuries.

Would you classify these youngsters as mentally unstable

I would. Or suffering from some form of mental illness, diagnosed or not. Depression, dissocial personality disorder (aka sociopath), intermittent explosive disorder, borderline personality, bipolar, schizophrenic, oppositional defiant ... and someone suffering from a condition where they have trouble distinguishing reality from fantasy could easily cross over from violence in games to violence in real life.

"Care in the Community" - essentially dressed up as improving lives by getting rid of Victorian type asylums etc. but ended up being "go take care of yourself".

More or less what happened here in the 70's-80's. The state run asylums were closed and the mentally ill were left to fend for themselves. Prisons have become the new asylums - mentally ill make up a large and growing percentage of prison populations.

 

[Archangel]

Sometimes, we MAKE the monsters. I feel bad for those @ Columbine but the student body made their executioners. Not all were involved but those 2 shooters didn't wake up one day and say, "We're popular kids and are never bullied. Everyone loves us. So let's kill them all. No reason." They were molded into what they became. It wasn't choice--it was forced down their throats. I don't side with the 2 but it's more of the student body's fault than the shooters. They built the monsters.

 

[Kenny]

Heads-up about the Morgan Freeman statement: It's likely fake http://www.inquisitr.com/440462/morgan-freemans-newtown-statement-almost-definitely-a-hoax/

Nice catch, thanks.
Still, whoever wrote it.... it's something to think about.

More or less what happened here in the 70's-80's. The state run asylums were closed and the mentally ill were left to fend for themselves. Prisons have become the new asylums - mentally ill make up a large and growing percentage of prison populations.

This is what I was saying about Reagan.
Not only did he cut funding for the handicaped, but also the programs for the gifted, who in many cases, are "special" in their own rights.

Sometimes, we MAKE the monsters. I feel bad for those @ Columbine but the student body made their executioners. Not all were involved but those 2 shooters didn't wake up one day and say, "We're popular kids and are never bullied. Everyone loves us. So let's kill them all. No reason." They were molded into what they became. It wasn't choice--it was forced down their throats. I don't side with the 2 but it's more of the student body's fault than the shooters. They built the monsters.

Unfortunatly, in some circles the bigger asshat you are, the more you are perceived to be cool.
Sometimes there are unexpected (or maybe not so unexpected) consequences.

We dont know what set this kid off.

Peace,
Cy

 

[enlytend]

It wasn't choice--it was forced down their throats. I don't side with the 2 but it's more of the student body's fault than the shooters. They built the monsters.

Sorry but I disagree - they DID have a choice. The students who bullied them were very wrong to do so, but it was their choice to respond the way they did. Being bullied doesn't MAKE someone commit murder or suicide, it can make them more inclined to those things if they're on shaky ground to begin with. You can't control someone else's actions, but it's up to you how you perceive them and how you react. That IS what pushed the Columbine shooters over the edge, but two other random kids may have reacted very differently in the same situation.

 

[gareth1614]

Hey all, firstly I have to say how stunned I was at the news on Friday. Coming from Northern Ireland I unfortunately have some (luckily indirect) experience of gun violence, but this is incomparable. My thoughts are with those involved and to all Americans. The tragedy's effects are felt worldwide however, and it's not the fault of the American people that these laws re gun ownership are there - they're a legacy of a former time. But things must change. In my anger/confusion/frustration I wrote and recorded a song about this and the wider situation in the world in late 2012. Listen here and share if you wanthttp://tweetmysong.com/4elnokw. Thanks.
RIP to the victims.

 

[Archangel]

Everyone has a breaking point. When you rattle the cage, the beast gets angry. We can agree to disagree but I still feel that the kids rattled the cage. Perhaps my force-feeding comment was a bit off but they had two choices (not just 1, as I mention): Do this or not. The cage was rattled and those who rattled it got hurt. I don't believe in pointing fingers just to point them. But those 2 gunmen were as much of victims as those who died. The monsters were created, not born. And once you throw enough bricks on one's back, they'll eventually succumb to the weight. The kids kept adding bricks. Innocents died and I'm saddened by that. But whether or not the shooters had a choice, they were driven to what they did because of the actions of others--not because they merely felt like it.

Sorry but I disagree - they DID have a choice. The students who bullied them were very wrong to do so, but it was their choice to respond the way they did. Being bullied doesn't MAKE someone commit murder or suicide, it can make them more inclined to those things if they're on shaky ground to begin with. You can't control someone else's actions, but it's up to you how you perceive them and how you react. That IS what pushed the Columbine shooters over the edge, but two other random kids may have reacted very differently in the same situation.

 

[GILSAN]

Stars call for gun control

http://www.politico.com/blogs/click/2012/12/stars-call-for-gun-control-152137.html

LOL, What a bunch of hypocrites. It really is amusing or should I say shocking that Hollyweird celebrities are pushing for gun control considering how many people in the film industry are stinking rich from portraying gun use and glorifying violence. Shame on you Hollywood.

"Django Unchained" is a perfect example of the bloody violent trash that Hollywood decides to bring out just in time for Christmas.

 

[enlytend]

The cage was rattled and those who rattled it got hurt.

True, but ...

The monsters were created, not born. And once you throw enough bricks on one's back, they'll eventually succumb to the weight.

OR they'll become so strong they can carry a s***load of bricks.

Studies on the brains of these mass murderers have turned up a common theme: The frontal cortex is thinner than normal. Among other things, the frontal cortex "is especially important for planning appropriate behavioral responses to external and internal stimuli."
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleID=177208

Thousands and thousands of kids (and adults - some of these school bullies grow up to be workplace bullies) are bullied each year. Only a miniscule percentage go on to either kill themselves or others. There's strong evidence that those who do so are predisposed because of the way their brains are wired.

Most people find non-lethal ways to deal with bullies. It's important for kids to learn that someone else's words have nothing to do with their own self-worth ... and how not to RESPOND like a victim, because that's what feeds the cycle. It's a "choice" - if you don't buy into their perception of you, they have no power over you. And if you don't react in ways which make it reinforcing to the bullies, they'll leave you alone. If they're PHYSICALLY harming you that's another matter and needs to be dealt with. But words and social posturing can't hurt you without your permission. Or to quote Eleanor Roosevelt: ""No-one can make you feel inferior without your consent"

 

[barefoottech]

Most of those murders are gang related and the numbers are probably over 500 by now, according to this article: http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=8864931

EXACTLY and how would tougher gun laws stop this. GANGS have little regard for existing laws. Little johnnie Howard GUNLAWS in Australia have not stopped our gangs importing thousands of banned guns into the country, it only stopped regular folks from buying them. the USA can't stop the illegal Drug trade, so Gun imports would just rise if USA denied HONEST Americans from buying guns.

 

[DU]

Tapatalk error.

 

[GILSAN]

EXACTLY and how would tougher gun laws stop this. GANGS have little regard for existing laws. Little johnnie Howard GUNLAWS in Australia have not stopped our gangs importing thousands of banned guns into the country, it only stopped regular folks from buying them. the USA can't stop the illegal Drug trade, so Gun imports would just rise if USA denied HONEST Americans from buying guns.

You have a good point there. I'm of the opinion that semi and automatic weapons should be totally banned. It would be a lot harder to kill so many people in a minute or two without such weapons. They should also make it a lot harder to register guns on a nationwide basis.

It's pretty pointless having one state being strict when you can have easy access by driving a few km to the next state. From what I hear that in some places you don't even need ID to buy a weapon.

Movies, TV, Video Games, bad Parenting and even RAP music to a lesser extent are another problem. Stop intoxicating young people with massive daily doses of extremely excessive violence. Tone it down. Monitor your kids, don't buy them violent video games

If gangs could be totally banned, (it's good to dream) that would stop at least 70% of gun murders.

In Portugal we never had gangs till the arrival of illegal immigrants (mostly from Africa and Brazil) in the past 20-25 years.

If I had my way these gang members would serve their jail time and then be immediately repatriated to their countries of origin with a one way ticket, regardless of weather they already had legal residency or not.

I know that every year a small number of Portuguese citizens are expelled from the US and Canada for being involved in crime, thus loosing their legal residency rights there. And I totally agree with that measure. Wish the Portuguese government would apply it as well. Unfortunately the European Union laws tell us to be nice to illegal immigrants even if they are criminals. The EU doesn't want us to trample on their human rights! How about our rights?

Bullying is another problem. Because I lived and went to school in both English and Portuguese countries I'm quite aware of the differences, and believe me, they were very big in terms of bullying. There was a considerable amount of more bullying in English schools than in Portuguese ones.

So yes, the Anglo Saxon society is one of the worst in the world as far as bullying goes.

So now you add up all these factors: Bullying, extreme violence in Movies, TV and Video Games, lots of gangs, plus the piss easy access to so many powerfully deadly weapons and you have a ready made cocktail of terror for lots of youngsters, who suddenly snap.