The USA Political Thread

[lennco]

Here you can spout your USA political views.

Rules:
1. Keep it clean
2. No fighting
3. Respect the views of others.
4. US Political views, No Religious views
5. Have fun

:wave:

 

[Domainace]

Another one of those links. The title:
"Surveillance prevented at least 10 U.S. terror attacks, NSA says"

They would, wouldn't they? I'm sure you can do better than that.

"The second is that there is little to no evidence that this increased surveillance does in fact save lives and catch bad guys."

Of course it does, that was gone thru already.

http://www.nbcnews.com/video/nightly-news/52245948#52245948

 

[JB Lions]

Another one of those links. The title:
"Surveillance prevented at least 10 U.S. terror attacks, NSA says"

They would, wouldn't they? I'm sure you can do better than that.

I just gave you a video where they got into specifics for a couple of them. Use a little common sense - "increased surveillance"

I mean, what do you think that would lead to?

a. nothing
b. less capturing of bad guys
c. more capturing of bad guys

a, b or c. Which one are you choosing?

 

[Domainace]

He didn't get into any verifiable specifics. He claimed, for example, that a plan to blow up the NYSE building was stopped. He didn't offer any proof of this. Nor did he explain whether it could have been stopped using more traditional methods. I mean, anyone wiring money to a known terrorist outfit in the Middle East (as this person was) might warrant more investigation. He gave no real evidence that suspending the civil rights of all Americans led to his capture - just his word, which is obviously highly biased.

Even without evidence, say I take you at your word and choose option c: more bad guys are captured.

Is it worth the cost to your freedoms? You should know that programs of this nature will inevitably be used to catch more than just "bad guys." They will be used to silence political enemies and to suppress dissent. Maybe at first, it will be used against people you don't like, such as the Tea Party. But they'll get around to people you do like eventually.

I really question your willingness to throw away your children's futures and freedoms simply to feel a little more secure.

 

[JB Lions]

"Maybe at first, it will be used against people you don't like, such as the Tea Party. But they'll get around to people you do like eventually."

Oh, brother.

---------- Post added 06-26-2013 at 12:08 AM ---------- Previous post was 06-25-2013 at 11:05 PM ----------

Over 100,000 people watching the filibuster live. 50 more minutes:

State Sen. Wendy Davis, D-Fort Worth, is filibustering controversial legislation that would dramatically restrict access to abortions in Texas. Abortion opponents argue the measure would improve women's safety, while reproductive rights advocates argue it would effectively cut off legal access to abortion in the state and endanger women's health.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q8Hr0O20LY&feature=player_embedded"]Texas Senate Livestream 83(1) - YouTube[/ame]

 

[RaiderGirl]

This whole thing with Snowden has to go down as Obama's most embarrassing moments, Here we have a guy who's wanted by the US Government, jumping from country to country at his leisure in countries where the US has extradition treaties, and NOT one is lifting a finger to capture him, instead their actually helping him get away.

Wasn't it Obama who repeatedly said our relationship with China and Russia has never been stronger? that's our image around the world has greatly improved?

If that's true, then why are so many countries thumbing their noses at us?.. Fact is, Obama is one big pussy, just like Carter was.. You show to the world that your weak and they'll stomp on you every time, You would think we would of learned this after JFK's blunder with Khrushchevv, or Carters miserable handling of the Iran Hostage crisis, a crisis we later found out was only intended to last a few days.

As moderate as the Bush's were, at least they had balls, Obama has NONE.

 

[JB Lions]

"As moderate as the Bush's were, at least they had balls, Obama has NONE."

lol, Bush. Bush gave up on Bin Laden, he lacked balls. Are you really basing our image to the world on China and Russia?

12 more minutes. Republican Texas men are not looking good right now, they'll take a hammering tomorrow in the news. 13 hours trying to filibuster and they tried to pull one over on her. Last 10 minutes, the crowd pretty much drowned them out.

"Before you judge Texas, know that 80% of us here are against what's going on tonight, including 76% of independents and 61% of Republicans."

"So we're all in agreement that Republicans in Texas are looking pretty bad, even for Republicans in Texas, right?"

"The republicans wouldn't let Wendy filibuster. So now the people of Texas are doing it for her. Inspiring. Amazing."

"170,000 people watching republicans subvert democracy live. I think this will be the start of something exciting "

 

[DU]

I just gave you a video where they got into specifics for a couple of them. Use a little common sense - "increased surveillance"

I mean, what do you think that would lead to?

a. nothing
b. less capturing of bad guys
c. more capturing of bad guys

a, b or c. Which one are you choosing?

We could make eunuchs of all those who download rape fantasy porn. Would that do

a. Nothing
b. Prevent rapes
c. Increase rapes

Or can we agree that the ends don't always justify the means especially when the ends are "subjective" at best.

One of the big stances against big data is that it takes intelligent data set partitioning out of play, That's one of the points I think most people are missing. The issue is that I don't think that is the case - I think some data and semantic enrichment is happening, and data is being targeted by the NSA data but the generalization of access is just a means to bypass legal conditions and get it easily and quickly without care for any rule of law or respect for the civilian population.

The BIG issue is still that a major rewrite of data laws hasn't occurred in the US since BEFORE THE INTERNET. The US is one fucked up place.

But ain't it great to be alive.

---------- Post added at 02:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:55 AM ----------

If that's true, then why are so many countries thumbing their noses at us?.. Fact is, Obama is one big pussy, just like Carter was.. You show to the world that your weak and they'll stomp on you every time, You would think we would of learned this after JFK's blunder with Khrushchevv, or Carters miserable handling of the Iran Hostage crisis, a crisis we later found out was only intended to last a few days.

As moderate as the Bush's were, at least they had balls, Obama has NONE.

I never realized that world politics was governed by the same rules that you'd see in a kindergarten sandpit. Soon China will start asking for Americas lunch money... and Putin will try to kiss Merkel and make her cry.

 

[enlytend]

I just gave you a video where they got into specifics for a couple of them. Use a little common sense - "increased surveillance"

I mean, what do you think that would lead to?

Did you ever consider that all the major, sophisticated terror networks are operating off the grid and wouldn't be picked up by this? They might catch a few low-level solo-acts, wannabes, bunglers - the kind that are usually caught anyway. Or they might not (example: Boston)

The government is still under obligation to obey our constitution. Even FISC, the "checks and balances" court that only rejected less than 0.03% of the requests for warrants - said they were overstepping.

They can't "target" US citizens, but its only a matter of time before the data is misused.

Even if you believe the ends justify the means:

If ONE person (a contractor at that) was able to get the amount of data they're saying he got, what does that say about INTERNAL security? A robust security policy should make that next to impossible! There should be clearly defined roles and a robust access matrix, giviing each person access to what they need and nothing more, with multiple authorization/authentication points to access anything deemed critical. No single point of failure, as they apparently had here. Start with the assumption that each member of your security team has intimate knowledge of the safeguards place to protect your sensitive data and the potential vulnerabilities.

Would you trust your personal data to a bank that was that lax with their security?

 

[Theo Goodman]

"As moderate as the Bush's were, at least they had balls, Obama has NONE."

They are basicly the same, no real difference.

Its not so hard, either you are with the USA and you expect the NSA to do "NSA STUFF" or you are against the USA and you dont like what the NSA is , has done, and will continue to do no matter if republicans or democrats are in office. Neither part will change the NSA in any fundimental way whatsoever.

The THEORY that this mass data collection has saved us from the terrorists is nothing more than a conspiracy theory at best backed up with creditable sources such as mainstream media and wikipedia.


Anyway why not just stop complaining and get a job with the NSA?
[ame="http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/14dc1b13fa/sexy-nsa-commercial-with-sasha-grey?rel=player"]http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/14dc1b13fa/sexy-nsa-commercial-with-sasha-grey?rel=player[/ame]

 

[verbster]

Did you ever consider that all the major, sophisticated terror networks are operating off the grid and wouldn't be picked up by this?

Are you thinking "all the major, sophisticated terror networks" are using homing pigeons for communicating?

---------- Post added at 06:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:31 AM ----------

The BIG issue is still that a major rewrite of data laws hasn't occurred in the US since BEFORE THE INTERNET. The US is one fucked up place.

Rewriting data laws is going to be a tough task, by the time the first draft is completed, the planned second draft is obsolete. But maybe a central core could stand for a few years.

yeah, the US has its share of problems, but just think of how it could be (either way) and ask if you're

A.
B.
C.
D. None of the above.

 

[DU]

Would you trust your personal data to a bank that was that lax with their security?

You do.

 

[DU]

Are you thinking "all the major, sophisticated terror networks" are using homing pigeons for communicating?

I suspect you'd be surprised.

---------- Post added at 11:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:13 AM ----------

yeah, the US has its share of problems, but just think of how it could be (either way) and ask if you're

A.
B.
C.
D. None of the above.

So I am either a "nothing" or I'm not even that?

 

[enlytend]

You do.

Quite possibly - yeah, I know, used to work for one. Just making a point. You'd think the government would make it a point to have their s*** together. Anyone who works in security knows that the biggest threats to your organization are the internal ones.

Are you thinking "all the major, sophisticated terror networks" are using homing pigeons for communicating?

No, but they aren't using aol, facebook or gmail either.

You may want to look up the term "underweb"

Hah - I called this one! Not that this is foolproof, nothing is, but why weren't they doing it in the first place?

The director of the N.S.A., Gen. Keith B. Alexander, acknowledged the problem in a television interview on Sunday and said his agency would institute “a two-man rule” that would limit the ability of each of its 1,000 system administrators to gain unfettered access to the entire system. The rule, which would require a second check on each attempt to access sensitive information, is already in place in some intelligence agencies.

www.nytimes.com/2013/06/24/technology/nsa-leak-puts-focus-on-system-administrators.html

 

[DU]

Hah - I called this one! Not that this is foolproof, nothing is, but why weren't they doing it in the first place?

Because who doesn't trust the Carlyle Group to do things right? Anyway, didn't they outsource responsibility? Isn't that how it works?

I think the solution is clearly to increase the budget and give Booz Hamilton more money to make the necessary improvements.

 

[enlytend]

I think the solution is clearly to increase the budget and give Booz Hamilton more money to make the necessary improvements.

:bingo:

That will be the result, if not the intent.

IME in places I worked which hired outside contractors, they spent a lot of time discussing ways to extend their contract, bring more people in and generally upsell their services.

 

[JB Lions]

We could make eunuchs of all those who download rape fantasy porn. Would that do

a. Nothing
b. Prevent rapes
c. Increase rapes

Or can we agree that the ends don't always justify the means especially when the ends are "subjective" at best.

If they ever started de-nutting innocent people, maybe my views will change.

Did you ever consider that all the major, sophisticated terror networks are operating off the grid and wouldn't be picked up by this? They might catch a few low-level solo-acts, wannabes, bunglers - the kind that are usually caught anyway. Or they might not (example: Boston)

No, because we haven't had anything like 9/11 since, talking about numbers killed. Off the grid? The bigger it is, the more people and money involved. Somebody throwing a bomb in a backpack is another story, we have 310+ million people in the U.S., stuff like that is going to happen.

The THEORY that this mass data collection has saved us from the terrorists is nothing more than a conspiracy theory at best backed up with creditable sources such as mainstream media and wikipedia.

No, it's not. I've posted a few times now links backing that up. Video, articles etc. But if it's in your head, big government is out to get you, they're just lying etc. it doesn't matter what is posted, because you want to believe the worst, not necessarily reality.

As far as outside contractors. If you're parents and have 4 kids, is it easier to watch them when they're all under the same roof in your house or with each one spending the night at somebody else's house. I think they should bring it more in-house. Tighten things up.

Elsewhere, one I know Gilsan has some interest in:
Supreme Court strikes down Defense of Marriage Act, paves way for gay marriage to resume in California
http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_new...for-gay-marriage-to-resume-in-california?lite

6 key moments from Wendy Davis’ filibuster
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...moments-from-wendy-daviss-11-hour-filibuster/

War on women took a strike yesterday, fired em up on the left.

 

[Theo Goodman]

"No, it's not. I've posted a few times now links backing that up. Video, articles etc. But if it's in your head, big government is out to get you, they're just lying etc. it doesn't matter what is posted, because you want to believe the worst, not necessarily reality."

No,those videos and "articles" dont "back up"anything. Its more floppy than any list of alex jones´s sources that he lists during any of his videos. Therefore it qualifiys as a democratic conspiracy theory. To make the best out of what has happened and try to spin it as much as possible. Thats normal, daily work of all politiicans no matter what party.

Please refrain from trying to compartmentalize people:

"But if it's in your head, big government is out to get you, they're just lying etc. it doesn't matter what is posted, "

I never used the word "big goverment" "out to get you" or "Lying".

But rather I pointed out that just posting links to wiki and nbc or abc is not really supporting this conspiracy theory of preventing "terror attacks" "plots" "ideas" ect.

But if its in your head , anyone that questions you and/or does not use wiki and msn as a source, is a "loon". That the NSA is cool great and they are just doing their job ,That for sure "NSA stuff" is great and makes us safe, then it doesn´t matter what is posted.

 

[Domainace]

This scene from Babe (the first 90 seconds anyway) strikes me as relevant.
http://youtu.be/oKXV-XQzUrY

 

[JB Lions]

Therefore it qualifiys as a democratic conspiracy theory. To make the best out of what has happened and try to spin it as much as possible..

Like I said, you're just proving my point. You already have it in your head, that whatever they come up with is spin. I could ask you what you consider proof and if they came up with that, you would probably say it was manufactured.

And you do have a history of this. Remember we were talking about 9/11 truther stuff and you acted like that stuff wasn't debunked:

http://www.namepros.com/4447943-post968.html

I followed up with links debunking that nonsense, you still didn't believe it. You said that was conspiracy theory. You like believing that stuff, that somehow this government is involved with that type of thing.

Start reading on page 39:

"Video, pictures, debris and witnesses can all be manipulated to paint a picture how you want. It is well documented that the goverment has programs to do such things."

As if all that could be manipulated with 9/11. Straight crazy. And that quote again just shows that no matter what proof they came up with, you would think it some government conspiracy.

 

[DU]

Of course it does, that was gone thru already.

http://www.nbcnews.com/video/nightly-news/52245948#52245948

There is more to this already written about.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/06/nsa-stock-exchange/

Interestingly enough the admission that the program was used might be used by the defense attorney to reopen the case that was due for sentencing. Brilliant! Let's see what becomes inadmissable ... what fun.

If they ever started de-nutting innocent people, maybe my views will change.

But it is being done. It is being done in secret and those that are in the know are too afraid to come forward to prevent the abuse of power enabled by the super secret court approved secret program because to do so would be espionage.

If you're parents and have 4 kids, is it easier to watch them when they're all under the same roof in your house or with each one spending the night at somebody else's house. I think they should bring it more in-house. Tighten things up.

So the primary concern is what is being leaked not what is being done. This is like telling Paul Deen that being racist isn't the problem, it's being found out that is the problem. The solution is obviously to be racist behind closed doors and lie about it if asked.