The USA Political Thread

[lennco]

Here you can spout your USA political views.

Rules:
1. Keep it clean
2. No fighting
3. Respect the views of others.
4. US Political views, No Religious views
5. Have fun

:wave:

 

[enlytend]

And it's been shown that some of this has helped stopped, directly or indirectly some terrorist attacks.

Which ones? I have yet to see any information about an actual planned attack that was stopped through this. One which was cited back when PRISM story first broke turned out to actually be stopped by an email found on a confiscated computer - good old police work.

It's not a matter of not wanting the gov't in my business, it's a matter of not wanting them overreaching, collecting and retaining data on US citizens without probable cause,the lack of transparency, the "rubber stamp" oversights. It sets dangerous precedents. And I find some aspects (not all, of course) of the ITP very disturbing.

In any organization, government or company, the ones who manage security pose the greatest risk of becoming the fox in the henhouse.

Loss of the very freedoms which make the US a great country is not a price we should be content to pay.

 

[Theo Goodman]

"helped stopped, directly or indirectly some terrorist attacks"

This is 100% conspiracy theory. Since all of said info is "secret" it can not be proved or disproved. This notion "helped stopped, directly or indirectly some terrorist attacks" can be used to justify just about anything.

This post helped stop a terror attack directly or indirectly.

 

[JB Lions]

"This is 100% conspiracy theory."

lol, no it isn't

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foiled_Islamic_terrorist_plots_in_the_post-9/11_United_States

NSA: 'Over 50' Terror Plots Foiled by Data Dragnets

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/nsa-...-controversial/story?id=19428148#.UcYxspz-6oE

What do you think the NSA does?

Terrorists agree with a lot of Americans wanting less of this.

 

[Kate]

Dream on people.

The modern rise of big government we are witnessing is absolutely unprecedented. Freedom, and its corollary: privacy are being destroyed at a very fast pace.
In fact you might not notice, because you don't know what freedom is

Yet Americans just bend over and ask for more.
Once proud nation what have you become ?

Fear turns otherwise reasonable people into zombies.
You should fear your own government (aka the terrocrats) more than the terrorists.

We need more patriots like Snowden but the policians want to shoot the messenger who exposed government abuse. When is government going to be made accountable ?
The problem is not that the NSA and the other three letter agencies are massively tapping potentially hostile foreigners in lands far away. Americans are targeted as well, in other words you are an enemy of the state too.

The real traitors are in the White House and the Capitol.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

 

[Domainace]

I wish you would at least try to use sources that support your argument. Neither of these links do. A list of foiled plots on Wikipedia is not the same as a list of plots that were foiled thanks to the suspension of civil liberties. Heck, why not credit every foiled crime in the US to the NSA?

The second (over 50 plots uncovered by data dragnets) is a claim made by the director of the NSA. I know you take him at his word, but I don't.

As a theoretical question, assuming you can show that any terrorist activities are stopped at all: How many lives need to be saved to make the complete suspension of civil liberties acceptable? And why not use that power to stop the biggest killers, such as obesity and car accidents? That will save lives, too.


Oh... and please explain how you know what terrorists agree with, and why we should even care. Hitler was for protecting animals against cruelty and in favor of physical fitness. Does that make those ideas wrong?

"This is 100% conspiracy theory."

lol, no it isn't

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foiled_Islamic_terrorist_plots_in_the_post-9/11_United_States

NSA: 'Over 50' Terror Plots Foiled by Data Dragnets

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/nsa-...-controversial/story?id=19428148#.UcYxspz-6oE

What do you think the NSA does?

Terrorists agree with a lot of Americans wanting less of this.

 

[JB Lions]

"complete suspension of civil liberties acceptable?"

It's not complete. I understand why we have the NSA, most Americans do.

"And why not use that power to stop the biggest killers, such as obesity and car accidents?"

And that doesn't even make sense. What are you even talking about?

"Oh... and please explain how you know what terrorists agree with, and why we should even care."

That's just stating the obvious. If you were a terrorist, up to no good, planning an attack would you rather have:

a. The US doing nothing, no surveillance
b. What we're doing now

"Americans are targeted as well, in other words you are an enemy of the state too. The real traitors are in the White House and the Capitol."

Somebody has been watching too many of our Hollywood blockbusters. Enemy of the state? Our government are traitors? Can you get any more dramatic? Really silly stuff.

And again, somebody from Iceland and Japan talking about Patriots and stuff.

"However, only 50% of Icelanders say they trust their political institutions, slightly less than the OECD average of 56% (and most probably a consequence of the political scandals in the wake of the Icelandic financial crisis)."

 

[enlytend]

a. The US doing nothing, no surveillance
b. What we're doing now

Those are the only 2 choices????

How about something in the middle that doesn't mess with the 4th amendment?

And again, somebody from Iceland and Japan talking about Patriots and stuff.

I am a US citizen.

 

[JB Lions]

"How about something in the middle that doesn't mess with the 4th amendment?"

It's something that needs to be talked about and I'm sure more information will be coming out, but I do expect the NSA to do NSA stuff.

"I am a US citizen."

So you think our government are traitors? We should fear them more than terrorists? That we're enemies of the state?

 

[f2k83]

Wow @ the stats. I'm wondering if the majority here are Democrats or Indis? That would be an interesting poll =0)

 

[Kate]

"complete suspension of civil liberties acceptable?"
It's not complete.

Not complete YET. Thanks God I'm feeling better now

Somebody has been watching too many of our Hollywood blockbusters. Enemy of the state? Our government are traitors? Can you get any more dramatic? Really silly stuff.

You know, frankly our world is very sick and evil prevails because good people do nothing.
I don't like the truth but I'm not going to sweep it under the rug.

"However, only 50% of Icelanders say they trust their political institutions, slightly less than the OECD average of 56% (and most probably a consequence of the political scandals in the wake of the Icelandic financial crisis)."

While no country is perfect, Iceland:
does have rule of law
does not give a free pass to people who abuse public office
does not torture people
does not kill people, especially without trial and fair process
does not invade foreign countries under bogus pretenses
does not abduct and detain people arbitrarily
does not track the electronic communications of the whole population
does not share the perverted, paranoid, Soviet-like mindset of US rulers
does not destroy privacy and freedom worldwide and domestically like the US
does not meddle in the internal affairs of other countries without good reasons
does not have any particular enemies, because of: #see above

 

[Theo Goodman]

Hi,
The "proof" is wikipedia and the nsa itself? Sorry that is not enough to "proove" anything, only "loons" would belive such conspiracy theories.

Even if you think the NSA is just "doing their job" and is cool and ok since they are "protecting us" realise that it is very difficult if not impossilbe to concretly link such programs -directly- to foiling a terror plot, attack, whatever new name they might want to give it.

INDIRECTLY of course 100% of what they do prevents terrorism ect, however that does not by any means prove or show that WITHOUT the ILLEAL programs they would not have prevented any of the wikipeadia proved terror plots, attacks, plans, attempts , and any other terror in general. There is simply lack of proof, and the details are secret.

In fact in this case abc and the nsa that are spouting off conspiracy theories about "preventing" terrorism. Wikipedia proves nothing and concidering what we are talking about it is clear that all and any "proof" found on the internet could have been manipulated, created ,editied ect by the nsa itself (yet another conspiracy theory).

For example: A police man is accused of doing something illegal to prevent a crime. If you would like to show that a police man did his job and use abc and the police department as the 2 sources then it is a weak arguement, even if you think they do/did a good job.

Was it not a NSA employ that straight up lied in congress on the mic? I dont know how to find the quote but something like: Congressman: Are there any big data nsa programs storing mass ammounts of data on Americans? NSA emplyee: "No"
Therefore we have a case that the NSA has lied or at the very very least given vauge and or incompleate answeres therefore why should we accept this NSA guy telling us that the prevented a nice even sounding number of 50 terror attacks since he is talking in front of congress?

This is way beyond republicans and democrats as both supported and still support the NSA programs that are being leaked.

excuse any spelling typos

 

[JB Lions]

"I don't like the truth but I'm not going to sweep it under the rug."

You're not telling any truth, you're just being overly dramatic. Straight out of a movie - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_of_the_State_(film)

Movie came out in 1998:
"As the U.S. Congress moves to pass new legislation that dramatically expands the surveillance powers of intelligence agencies,"

Sounds like what's happening now.

As far as all this:
does have rule of law
does not give a free pass to people who abuse public office
does not torture people
does not kill people, especially without trial and fair process
does not invade foreign countries under bogus pretenses
does not abduct and detain people arbitrarily
does not track the electronic communications of the whole population
does not share the perverted, paranoid, Soviet-like mindset of US rulers
does not destroy privacy and freedom worldwide and domestically like the US
does not meddle in the internal affairs of other countries without good reasons
does not have any particular enemies, because of: #see above

You don't have too, because you have a lot of other countries taking care of you. Knowing that, you can be somewhat neutral. You don't even have a standing army. You are protected by Canada with their military. America helped you out with the Marshall Plan, Iceland was one of the most poorest, under developed countries in the world before that. This as well - "From 1951, the United States maintained several thousand troops and several jet interceptors in the Keflavík Air Base; this was the Iceland Defense Force. The US military did not leave the country until 2006." Canada and the United States military.

Government taking care of the people, Universal Health Care etc. Welfare state.

This doesn't sound so great - "Hörður Torfason — The man who overthrew Iceland’s government"

"In October of 2008, Iceland’s economy collapsed."

"Money and political parties control the media, and they don’t want people to protest. They work against us [to maintain their power]. I don’t trust the media."

"We started learning how deep and widespread the corruption was, and we were in shock."

Sounds like rich people, media, political parties control the people. Got them very dependent on government.

http://citizenactionmonitor.wordpre...on-the-man-who-overthrew-icelands-government/

Speaking of Snowden and Iceland:

"NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden could be flown to Iceland on private jet by controversial website WikiLeaks"

"The government of newly-elected Prime Minister Sigmundur David Gunnlaugsson is believed to be closer to Washington than past administrations and less keen to foster the country's cyber-haven image."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...vate-jet-controversial-website-WikiLeaks.html

 

[DU]

When you don't use "quote post" I have no idea who you're quoting. The above post makes zero sense.


“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers.”
- Thomas Pynchon

 

[JB Lions]

When you don't use "quote post" I have no idea who you're quoting. The above post makes zero sense.


“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers.”
- Thomas Pynchon

Why don't you quote the part that isn't making sense to you. If you read it in order, it should.

 

[DU]

Why don't you quote the part that isn't making sense to you. If you read it in order, it should.

Who is from Iceland?
SDSINCS post is not in quotes but then you have quotes from elsewhere? I cant follow but then most of this thread is nonsense anyway.

But when people then quote you it gets really confusing... Why not just use multipost quote like most people?

 

[JB Lions]

sdsinc is from Iceland

Reading more about it, I'm concerned about the voters of Iceland.

So in summary of the Icelandic revolution:
-resignation of the whole government
-nationalization of the bank.
-referendum so that the people can decide over the economic decisions.
-incarcerating the responsible parties
-rewriting of the constitution by its people

But they put them in power in the first place.

"The modern rise of big government we are witnessing is absolutely unprecedented."

I agree, some unprecedented things happening in Iceland. Nationalized banks, nationalized healthcare.

 

[Domainace]

I am also an American citizen. Although, since I choose not to live there that probably makes my opinion suspect and even unpatriotic I guess.

"And why not use that power to stop the biggest killers, such as obesity and car accidents?"

And that doesn't even make sense. What are you even talking about?

Simply explained...
Terrorists kill people, and that makes it OK to you if civil liberties established by our founders are tossed by the wayside as long as the excuse is that it will stop terrorists.
Obesity and texting while driving cause more deaths in a week than terrorism does in a decade. So why not use the NSA powers to see who is too fat, or texting and driving? We can send them to reeducation camps until they change their behavior. I for one will feel safer when all texting drivers are locked away.

You're throwing away the freedoms that so many have died to protect for some illusory and unproven promise of "security."

 

[JB Lions]

Well, the NSA doesn't handle that kind of stuff. I posted earlier what they handle.

Texting and driving, we already have many states that have laws against it, with more on the way.

Obesity, you're really screwing yourself and you have that right.

It's funny you talking about our founders and civil liberties, when many of them owned slaves and some weren't too keen on woman's rights.

The NSA has it's role. As I said earlier, it's a topic that needs to be discussed more and looked at. When it's comes to Americans there are already checks and balances in place. Maybe it could be better. But it's nothing I'm worried about, not worried about terrorism either. But some people, take it to extremes with the our government are traitors, enemy of the state type stuff. It's a tool used to help combat terrorism and I'm fine with that.

 

[Kate]

You're not telling any truth, you're just being overly dramatic.

Okay.
Do you rulers tell the truth then ?

... America helped you out with the Marshall Plan...,

That was a long time ago, but I do not forget. I think Europe owes a lot to the US and has not always been grateful like it should have, I used to be pro-American (in spite of my critical stance) and being a child of the 80s I grew during the Reagan years, when America actually carried some prestige and values. America was very influential and we would all feel American in our hearts. But that was then.
My views have changed, in particular since the GWB era. Like Snowden, I have become disillusioned with the way the US conducts its foreign (and domestic) policy.
I've said America looks more and more like China in many ways and we now have the confirmation. That kind of paranoia is something you would expect in the former USSR or China.

"We started learning how deep and widespread the corruption was, and we were in shock."

Crony capitalism. Iceland is a very small country and many people know each other. Even in egalitarian countries there is always an elite and incestuous relationships.
But the extent of corruption is nothing like the US where for example a former VP was instrumental in bringing the country to war under false pretenses, while he was a retired (?) executive of Halliburton, one of the firms that was going to benefit hugely from the war and the reconstruction. Follow the money always, and everything becomes clear.

In Iceland the politicians have been sanctioned. Justice has been served too. The banks were not bailed out or rewarded.
In the US, the criminals are not held accountable for their actions and getting away with it.

But some people, take it to extremes with the our government are traitors, enemy of the state type stuff. It's a tool used to help combat terrorism and I'm fine with that.

Where do you draw the line ?
What make the US any different than other authoritarian countries ?

Have you ever seen a government voluntarily limiting its own powers ? Of course not. And given a. the secrecy and b. the public apathy, I'm afraid it's only going to get much much worse. Then it will be too late to cry and you are not going to tell your children and grand-children that you "didn't know".

 

[enlytend]

So you think our government are traitors? We should fear them more than terrorists? That we're enemies of the state?

I never said that. Don't put words in my mouth. But just because they're our government doesn't mean they're above reproach and shouldnt be subject to scrutiny.

The kind of data they have and the language regarding how long it can be retained and how it can be used leave the door open for abuse of that same data.