The religious discussion thread

[Archangel]

This thread was created to bring a local new story to light, which can be viewed below:

JACKSON, Ohio (AP) — An Ohio school district decided Tuesday night to keep a portrait of Jesus hanging in the school where it's been 65 years, denying a federal lawsuit's claim the portrait's display unconstitutionally promotes religion in a public school.

The Jackson City Schools board offered a constitutional justification of its own in voting 4-0 to keep the portrait up in its middle school, saying it must protect students' free speech rights. The vote drew cheers and applause from the dozens of people gathered in the elementary school gymnasium.

Read all of it here: http://news.yahoo.com/ohio-school-b...xzBHB0A3N0b3J5cGFnZQR0ZXN0A1Rlc3RfQUZD;_ylv=3

I posted his here @ NP to see what ppl had to say on the issue. As it turns out, this sparked many debates. I've considered closing this thread but after multiple suggestions, I decided to keep it open. Feel free to join in the topics but per forum rules, please refrain from obscene, threatening, rude, or insulting posts.

 

[enlytend]

"The board said the portrait is part of a "limited public forum," and that the Jackson schools will allow other student clubs to hang portraits appropriate to their organizations."

I bet if one of the "other organizations" had hung a portrait first they wouldn't be saying that...

Schools should be neutral. Now if it was a class on religion, ok. Catholic, religious school ok.

Agreed!

(Side note: How many of you know that Jesus is a part of Islam? Muslims view him as a holy prophet and messenger of god ... not literally a SON of god because they don't believe god is an entity that can have children.)

 

[DU]

Again, spot-on. No offense to you, GILSAN, but this is an American matter, going by American laws. This is not relevant to you. It’s an issue of the painting being placed in an area under American jurisdiction. It’s not the mere fact that it’s a painting of Jesus--it’s the laws surrounding it.

An American talking about American jurisdiction and it not being relevant anywhere else in the world?
I'll let Israel know immediately that what happens there is of no concern to Americans? Same with Iraq, Iran, North Korea, China, France... remember this was the county where people stopped eating FRENCH FRIES!?!

Though this picture is a small issue it speaks volumes about the current climate in this country so it is WHOLLY relevant.

Man, if there was only one view of Christianity, only 1 denomination would exist.

Well there is the unitarian church....

If it was one of Muhammad, it would have been 0-4 the other way.

I'm pretty sure that a lot of muslims might vote it removed too. I'm not sure the Sunnis would be too keen on an image hanging anywhere. I'd also be interested in a Presbyterian view - no doubt they might like to have the 2nd commandment reviewed in the face of the picture of Jesus.

*
If you want your children to have a religious education, then, by all means, send them to religious schools.
*

There is no better place to TEACH religion than in a school with mixed religions. Without teaching how can one even begin to understand the different belief systems?

We want to learn about the formation of America - religion was a part of that. Much of the history of the world is dressed in religion. It's HUGELY important.

It's not a place for prosletyzing which I think is what you meant

I think Religious Education should be taught in ALL schools.

 

[Keith]

There is no better place to TEACH religion than in a school with mixed religions.

Yes, it's called public school. You let everyone share their views thru social interaction without hanging pics on the wall which favor one view over the other!

 

[GILSAN]

JB Lions must be feeling like a peacock, now that he's been nominated by the liberal NamePros crowd to be the next Prez. Tough luck Hillary, you were outright favorite, but now there's a new kid on the block. God help us all!

JB Lions says: "I guarantee you, put Muhammed up there, those Christians would lose it"

If someone put Muhammed there they (the Muslims) would burn the school down

Anyway I've had enough of arguing with the brainwashed libs

 

[JB Lions]

"Anyway I've had enough of arguing with the brainwashed libs"

Run thru the translator

"Anyway I have no real points, I'm tired of getting my ass handed to me, I'm outta here"

Yes, I'm a brainwashed lib because I think schools should be a neutral place.

You fear answering this simple question:

"Do you think schools should be pushing one religion over another, or should schools be a neutral place, realizing people come from different backgrounds, different faiths etc.?"

You either agree with me, or you think it's ok for schools to be pushing one religion over another.

 

[GILSAN]

An American talking about American jurisdiction and it not being relevant anywhere else in the world?
I'll let Israel know immediately that what happens there is of no concern to Americans? Same with Iraq, Iran, North Korea, China, France... remember this was the county where people stopped eating FRENCH FRIES!?!

Though this picture is a small issue it speaks volumes about the current climate in this country so it is WHOLLY relevant.

Agreed. Virtually anything that happens in the US has implications all over.

There is no better place to TEACH religion than in a school with mixed religions. Without teaching how can one even begin to understand the different belief systems?

We want to learn about the formation of America - religion was a part of that. Much of the history of the world is dressed in religion. It's HUGELY important.

I think Religious Education should be taught in ALL schools.

Agreed once again. Catholic schools in many countries such as the UK attract large numbers of Muslim and Hindu students who have no problems in attending such schools, because they know they will get a great education there.

I really don´t see what all the fuss is about even though it's a public school where only 1 student and his parents complained about the Jesus that was already there for 65 years. How many students in this school? 100, 200, 300 or more?

So the objection of 1 student and his parents over possibly 300 students and their parents is more important? Where the hell is the democracy in the US? No wonder Public schools in the US are going down the dumps. They need to bring back good values which includes religion.

To me you guys are all wrong, so go ahead and vote for JB Lions. I don't give a shit anymore

---------- Post added at 04:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:36 PM ----------

"Do you think schools should be pushing one religion over another, or should schools be a neutral place, realizing people come from different backgrounds, different faiths etc.?"

You either agree with me, or you think it's ok for schools to be pushing one religion over another.

You really think you're smart don't you. As usual you twist everything around and then come insisting that I answer your stupid twisted questions.

You know where you can shove your questions don't you? or should I spell it out for you?

 

[Ms Domainer]

*

No one wants to take away anyone else's religion, but public schools aren't the place to teach "good religious values"--that job belongs at home and at church.

Yes, I have heard that some non-Catholics send their children to Catholic schools, but they will be taught Catholic values. I would expect that. I'm sure that those parents have made a deal with their own beliefs in exchange for a better quality of education for their kids.

But being taught "Christian values" in public school is not okay.

And posting a picture of Jesus sends an implicit message that this school promotes Christian beliefs. It doesn't matter if the picture has been posted for 65 years or 65 days--it's still an affront to those who hold other beliefs. And separation of Church and State is a constitutional guarantee (in the U.S.); we escaped the Brits because of religious intolerance (mostly forcing citizens to join the Church of England).

I have no problem with schools teaching about different religions, for example, "The Bible as Literature," but if the conversation slips into talk like, "The One and Only True Church" or other such nonsense, then I have a problem.

There are options for those who want religious values taught in school: private schools and homeschooling.

I, for one, am not interested in paying taxes for schools that push dogma at kids.

*

 

[GILSAN]

Here's an example of the University of Dayton, a Roman Catholic university receiving more and more Muslim students:

One of them said: “Here, people are more religious, even if they’re not Muslim, and I am comfortable with that,”

Another said: “I like the fact that there’s faith, even if it’s not my faith, and I feel my faith is respected,”

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/03/e...atholic-colleges-in-growing-numbers.html?_r=0

Another article:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/19/AR2010121904199.html

If Public Schools were to follow these example they would be much better.

 

[DU]

*
Yes, I have heard that some non-Catholics send their children to Catholic schools, but they will be taught Catholic values.
*

Or how to play football..

 

[enlytend]

They need to bring back good values which includes religion.

That's your opinion.

 

[Archangel]

An American talking about American jurisdiction and it not being relevant anywhere else in the world?

Correct. The fact that this country sticks its nose in every butt-crack it sees doesn’t mean what we do is right.

Yes, it's called public school. You let everyone share their views thru social interaction without hanging pics on the wall which favor one view over the other!

Public schools are not the place to teach religion. Had I been atheist, well, who in the hell should have the right to teach my kids about God if I try to teach them there is no God at all? A teacher is to TEACH & NOT to instill religious values.

JB Lions must be feeling like a peacock, now that he's been nominated by the liberal NamePros crowd to be the next Prez. Tough luck Hillary, you were outright favorite, but now there's a new kid on the block. God help us all!

JB Lions says: "I guarantee you, put Muhammed up there, those Christians would lose it"

If someone put Muhammed there they (the Muslims) would burn the school down

Anyway I've had enough of arguing with the brainwashed libs

He’s referring to me, thinking I’m a Lib. Hell no! I can’t STAND Democrats. I was raised Republican but eh, they’re so insane these days, I dunno how anyone could follow them. I’m Independent.

But he’s making my point, even though he doesn’t think that he is: This world is full of differing religions. You, GILSAN, just contradicted your Holier-than-thou self: You said that had this been a painting of Mohammad, Muslims would have burned it down. This is the exact same thing here, aside of course that it’s not violent (it’s non-followers showing angst over the painting). I said it should be taken down for the same reasons a Mohammad painting should be: it would be offensive.

Come on, ppl--stop being so naïve. If a kid went to school with a shirt that said “I hate *****rs and faggots,” are you saying the shirt should be ruled okay under 1st Amendment rights & that it wouldn’t have any implications on ppl and would in no realistic way be offensive to anyone? This painting is offensive to non-Christians. Why not just take it down? As-is, the painting is causing a “disruption in the educational system” but because Christianity is what America was founded on, the Government (or in this case, the school board) wants to steal an advantage -- as they had.

Agreed. Virtually anything that happens in the US has implications all over.

This painting being hung in an American public school has no implications outside of the US. Sorry.

*

No one wants to take away anyone else's religion, but public schools aren't the place to teach "good religious values"--that job belongs at home and at church.

Yes, I have heard that some non-Catholics send their children to Catholic schools, but they will be taught Catholic values. I would expect that. I'm sure that those parents have made a deal with their own beliefs in exchange for a better quality of education for their kids.

But being taught "Christian values" in public school is not okay.

And posting a picture of Jesus sends an implicit message that this school promotes Christian beliefs. It doesn't matter if the picture has been posted for 65 years or 65 days--it's still an affront to those who hold other beliefs. And separation of Church and State is a constitutional guarantee (in the U.S.); we escaped the Brits because of religious intolerance (mostly forcing citizens to join the Church of England).

I have no problem with schools teaching about different religions, for example, "The Bible as Literature," but if the conversation slips into talk like, "The One and Only True Church" or other such nonsense, then I have a problem.

There are options for those who want religious values taught in school: private schools and homeschooling.

I, for one, am not interested in paying taxes for schools that push dogma at kids.

*

Agreed. Those who actually DO want it are the braindead Christians who believe their goal in life is to turn everyone into Christians. Good luck with your losing battle, ppl. I’m Christian because I WANT TO BE, not because a school wanted me to me. This painting doesn’t belong in a public school. A church, yes, but not a public school.

Here's an example of the University of Dayton, a Roman Catholic university receiving more and more Muslim students:

One of them said: “Here, people are more religious, even if they’re not Muslim, and I am comfortable with that,”

Another said: “I like the fact that there’s faith, even if it’s not my faith, and I feel my faith is respected,”

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/03/e...atholic-colleges-in-growing-numbers.html?_r=0

Another article:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/19/AR2010121904199.html

If Public Schools were to follow these example they would be much better.

Taking the belief of a news article. How lovely. (I live in Jackson so I know how ppl here feel personally. We all talk about it -- and I’ve read from NO ONE who wanted the painting to stay except from news articles that use favoritism to get their point across.

 

[GILSAN]

You, GILSAN, just contradicted your Holier-than-thou self: You said that had this been a painting of Mohammad, Muslims would have burned it down. This is the exact same thing here, aside of course that it’s not violent (it’s non-followers showing angst over the painting). I said it should be taken down for the same reasons a Mohammad painting should be: it would be offensive.

Taking the belief of a news article. How lovely. (I live in Jackson so I know how ppl here feel personally. We all talk about it -- and I’ve read from NO ONE who wanted the painting to stay except from news articles that use favoritism to get their point across.

I don't think you understood what I said.
I said that Muslims would burn the school down for putting a painting of Muhammad, because they are against paintings or any depictions of Mohammad. If they had a Koran in the school and it was removed there would be zero tolerance from them. Totally different from what you're suggesting I said.

So you are saying that everyone in Jackson town are against the Jesus and want it removed?. Then why were most parents cheering the position taken by the School Board? Are you saying that the article in Yahoo and others that I read from some Ohio newspapers is a load of bull?

If that's the case why did you start a thread based on an article that according to you "use favoritism to get their point across"? In other words...lies & BS

 

[Archangel]

I suppose our meanings got a bit twisted to one another. C'est la vie.

And I posted this topic because I wanted to bring it up. Why else would I post it--like, was I paid to or something? lol

I don't think you understood what I said.
I said that Muslims would burn the school down for putting a painting of Muhammad, because they are against paintings or any depictions of Mohammad. If they had a Koran in the school and it was removed there would be zero tolerance from them. Totally different from what you're suggesting I said.

So you are saying that everyone in Jackson town are against the Jesus and want it removed?. Then why were most parents cheering the position taken by the School Board? Are you saying that the article in Yahoo and others that I read from some Ohio newspapers is a load of bull?

If that's the case why did you start a thread based on an article that according to you "use favoritism to get their point across"? In other words...lies & BS

 

[twomoon]

I just can’t understand why today’s societies in a Christian countries are so self-destructive and ignorant to what’s happening in their countries. Religion need to be one of the main pivots of education (and it is in other cultures, but not in Christian countries). I respect all main religions, cause I believe that people can believe in anything they want, people also can choose to not believe in anything. But why Christians are always loosing the game with others. Look at Muslims, Jews… They are strong in their faith, and I like it much. This is how Christians need to be.
This picture is just a first step, the next step could be different. For example, some day on Christmas you will get such nice Christmas tree like the people who live in Brussels got last year - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20302574

 

[Archangel]

But there's always the issue of parental rights. Would it be right for a teacher to teach the word of Christ to a Wiccan child? Is it in the school's rights to say, "No--your parents are wrong, we're right, and our belief is what you have to believe"? Religion doesn't belong in public schools. Teach our kids how to read and write. Teach them about health, especially the consequences of sex (all ppl have sex and/or masturbate. It's not too taboo to teach). But leave FAITH up to the parents. Schools should have no right to dictate what someone believes in.

I just can’t understand why today’s societies in a Christian countries are so self-destructive and ignorant to what’s happening in their countries. Religion need to be one of the main pivots of education (and it is in other cultures, but not in Christian countries). I respect all main religions, cause I believe that people can believe in anything they want, people also can choose to not believe in anything. But why Christians are always loosing the game with others. Look at Muslims, Jews… They are strong in their faith, and I like it much. This is how Christians need to be.
This picture is just a first step, the next step could be different. For example, some day on Christmas you will get such nice Christmas tree like the people who live in Brussels got last year - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20302574

 

[twomoon]

But there's always the issue of parental rights. Would it be right for a teacher to teach the word of Christ to a Wiccan child? Is it in the school's rights to say, "No--your parents are wrong, we're right, and our belief is what you have to believe"? Religion doesn't belong in public schools. Teach our kids how to read and write. Teach them about health, especially the consequences of sex (all ppl have sex and/or masturbate. It's not too taboo to teach). But leave FAITH up to the parents. Schools should have no right to dictate what someone believes in.

Wrong way. It's better to teach religion than this - "Schools could be made to teach pupils about gay marriage once it is passed into law"

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2167472/Schools-teach-pupils-gay-marriage-passed-law.html

I can't imagine that something like this happened in a Islamic country.

Wrong way.

 

[JB Lions]

I just can’t understand why today’s societies in a Christian countries are so self-destructive and ignorant to what’s happening in their countries.

I'm not sure why you and Gilsan can't understand this, but we're not a Christian country. I'm not sure what kind of education you received growing up but I went to a normal school and was taught the idea of America being a melting pot. Sometimes Christians bring up the Founding Fathers but they said themselves:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion" in the Treaty of Tripoli.

And as I seem to remember, like Gilsan, you're not in this country either or was it somebody else?

 

[twomoon]

I'm not sure why you and Gilsan can't understand this, but we're not a Christian country. I'm not sure what kind of education you received growing up but I went to a normal school and was taught the idea of America being a melting pot. Sometimes Christians bring up the Founding Fathers but they said themselves:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion" in the Treaty of Tripoli.

And as I seem to remember, like Gilsan, you're not in this country either or was it somebody else?

If US is not a country based on Christian values - i have nothing to say.
And, yes, you're right, I'm not in this country too.
I think Gilsan and me, we just see what's happening in the Europe for example, and looking on all of these with open eyes - this is why some posts and opinions are out of our understanding. Although can speak only for myself.

 

[JB Lions]

If US is not a country based on Christian values - i have nothing to say.
And, yes, you're right, I'm not in this country too.
I think Gilsan and me, we just see what's happening in the Europe for example, and looking on all of these with open eyes - this is why some posts and opinions are out of our understanding. Although can speak only for myself.

It's based on laws. And a lot of those laws are not in conflict with Christian values or values or other religions. There are some that some Christians (not all) will have issues with, like abortion, same sex marriage etc. But other stuff is pretty basic. Like don't murder, steal etc. Laws and values are pretty much on the same page on stuff like that.

In the end, these are public schools, full of kids with different religions and no religion at all. Should be neutral.

 

[Keith]

Public schools are not the place to teach religion. Had I been atheist, well, who in the hell should have the right to teach my kids about God if I try to teach them there is no God at all? A teacher is to TEACH & NOT to instill religious values.

If you send your kids to public school, they will surely be exposed to some sort of religion through their peers. That's why I said kids at public schools can learn through "social interaction."

I completely agree with you that teachers should NOT install religious values. Kids should'nt have to stare at religious pictures while being forced to attend the public education system either.

 

[DU]

Public schools are not the place to teach religion.

I completely agree with you that teachers should NOT install religious values.

You can teach religious studies without instilling religion. It's just like you can learn French without changing nationality.

You seem to think that all teaching of religion instills belief (maybe I'm wrong) but it needs more than just social interaction.

If people studied the dynamics of religion Americans would have more of an understanding of why things are different in the Ukraine or Portugal than they are in Canada or the US and vice versa.

Helps to bridge the gap a little.

In other words:

Catholicism is the .com of religions. Church of England is the co.uk and the American Evangelicals are the .me. The world is trying to establish the equivalence of the new gTLDs which run the gamut.

This painting being hung in an American public school has no implications outside of the US. Sorry.

If this was simply about a painting hung in a school it would have no implications outside of the school. But yet here we are.

 

[Keith]

You can teach religious studies without instilling religion.

That would be true except we have that little thing in the US called "seperation of church and state." So in actuality, you cannot teach religious studies under any circumstance in a public school.

 

[GILSAN]

I'm not sure why you and Gilsan can't understand this, but we're not a Christian country.

And as I seem to remember, like Gilsan, you're not in this country either or was it somebody else?

First of all let me put the record straight. I lived in California for 7 years, from 1975-1982, so I'm not exactly ignorant about the country. I traveled across part of the US, visiting Nevada, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Nebraska and up to Des Moines in Iowa. And because I lived in the US I have an added interest in it and what happens there.

Secondly when you say the US is not a Christian country I have to :lol:. What the hell do you call 80% Christian?

Let me tell you something, just be glad that it remains Christian for a very long time, because not every religion is as tolerant as the Christians are.

So what on earth are they teaching in Public Schools nowadays?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwWtqM8qtgw"]U.S. Public Education System FAIL!!! - YouTube[/ame]

I'll bet if they asked these same kids about Video Games, movie stars, music artists, cell phones, iPads, reality shows or even the Kama Sutra these kids would answer the questions with flying colours.

I guess they have so many important other things to learn such as:

Sexual education classes at NYC public high schools and middle schools might feature some usually unmentioned lessons next year.
Among those lessons? Bestiality, anal sex, oral, sex, phone sex, porn and more,...

Read more: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/...ach-on-oral-sex-and-bestiality_n_1028670.html

And if the girls get pregnant, that's not a problem; just go to an abortion clinic and get rid of it. Can't miss out on all that kinky sex can they?

One final question: What will happen if one student objects to having to learn about, lets say; Bestiality or Porno in school. Will the courts take it off the curriculum? Will JB Lions, Archangel and others be incensed and make a big fuss about it?

 

[DU]

That would be true except we have that little thing in the US called "seperation of church and state." So in actuality, you cannot teach religious studies under any circumstance in a public school.

General Rule: Public schools may not teach religion, although teaching about religion in a secular context is permitted.

One can't remove religion from schools. Why was America founded? Who was Cromwell and what was his beef? What was the holocaust about? What about the Crusades? Who was Calvin? Why was he important? Who was Luther? Henry the 8th? Discuss the growth of the Medici family without using religion?

What about China and its policies? Toward Tibet? What about Turkey and its relationship to Iraq? What about Israel? Why was it created? How? How can we discuss peace issues?

If you make no attempt to study religion then history, literary studies and the arts are a waste of time.

The constitutionalist view is archaic outdated and should have been dumped in the 18th century. America is one of the most modernized countries in the world with people that lean on the most anachronistic principles ever devised.

Rather than taking the brilliance of the founding fathers (some of them truly were) and constantly striving to improve we look back to some ancient principles as the be all end all and do nothing but stifle.

Can you imagine a 21 st century business looking at its 17th century founders for guidance?

The US needs a upgrade of its boardroom.

 

[GILSAN]

General Rule: Public schools may not teach religion, although teaching about religion in a secular context is permitted.

One can't remove religion from schools. Why was America founded? Who was Cromwell and what was his beef? What was the holocaust about? What about the Crusades? Who was Calvin? Why was he important? Who was Luther? Henry the 8th? Discuss the growth of the Medici family without using religion?

What about China and its policies? Toward Tibet? What about Turkey and its relationship to Iraq? What about Israel? Why was it created? How? How can we discuss peace issues?

If you make no attempt to study religion then history, literary studies and the arts are a waste of time.

The constitutionalist view is archaic outdated and should have been dumped in the 18th century. America is one of the most modernized countries in the world with people that lean on the most anachronistic principles ever devised.

Rather than taking the brilliance of the founding fathers (some of them truly were) and constantly striving to improve we look back to some ancient principles as the be all end all and do nothing but stifle.

Can you imagine a 21 st century business looking at its 17th century founders for guidance?

The US needs a upgrade of its boardroom.

:tu: A Brilliant Post :tu: