No one wants to pay for Task.ai apparently. Task.ai was the high closing auction the previous two months at Dynadot’s .ai expiring auctions. Task.ai closed at $84,000, and it closed at $78,777 the month before. Igor Gabrielan was kind enough to let me know that …
Why would anybody risk risking spending $$$ at Dynadot auction, when they could just spend $5 on a dynadot throwaway account, and pay the roll back price?
This seems like dynadot punishing those who play fairly, and incentivizing those who are willing to participate in roll back schemes.
Any plans on fixing this, or does dynadot recommend auction participants create throw away dynadot accounts to lock up their desired domain?
In other words, your second highest bid is $50,000, but if it wasn't for the shill bidding you would've paid $25,000. You're effectively getting scammed out of $25,000.
The best they could do would be to eliminate the shill-bidder from the auction list entirely and then go through the list of asking the bidders if they want to buy the domain for their previous bid. In the list above Bidder 2 would be asked to buy it for $25,000, and if he rejected Bidder 1 would be offered to buy it for $20,000 and so on.
The problem here is that it's going to affect their bottom line, because they make a % off the sales. So they'd rather try to sell it for $45,000 than $25,000. So they're unlikely to implement this.
In other words, your second highest bid is $50,000, but if it wasn't for the shill bidding you would've paid $25,000. You're effectively getting scammed out of $25,000.
The best they could do would be to eliminate the shill-bidder from the auction list entirely and then go through the list of asking the bidders if they want to buy the domain for their previous bid. In the list above Bidder 2 would be asked to buy it for $25,000, and if he rejected Bidder 1 would be offered to buy it for $20,000 and so on.
The problem here is that it's going to affect their bottom line, because they make a % off the sales. So they'd rather try to sell it for $45,000 than $25,000. So they're unlikely to implement this.
Who's being held hostage here? Is it the winner or the second guy?
If it's the winner than that's fine, if it's the second guy then it's a problem. Because a shill-bidding account is not going to have any domains.
In other words, your second highest bid is $50,000, but if it wasn't for the shill bidding you would've paid $25,000. You're effectively getting scammed out of $25,000.
The best they could do would be to eliminate the shill-bidder from the auction list entirely and then go through the list of asking the bidders if they want to buy the domain for their previous bid. In the list above Bidder 2 would be asked to buy it for $25,000, and if he rejected Bidder 1 would be offered to buy it for $20,000 and so on.
The problem here is that it's going to affect their bottom line, because they make a % off the sales. So they'd rather try to sell it for $45,000 than $25,000. So they're unlikely to implement this.
Who's being held hostage here? Is it the winner or the second guy?
If it's the winner than that's fine, if it's the second guy then it's a problem. Because a shill-bidding account is not going to have any domains.
I'm not sure what the correct way of dealing with shills is.
Do you do it as Dynadot currently are by offering (not forcing) the second highest bidder the name at the higher price or risk being gamed like GD by removing all the shills bids (which in a lot of the GD auctions would make the name almost free).
Some marketplaces require store credit to be used in some way or maybe have a credit card on account that can be charged.
I'm not sure what the correct way of dealing with shills is.
Do you do it as Dynadot currently are by offering (not forcing) the second highest bidder the name at the higher price or risk being gamed like GD by removing all the shills bids (which in a lot of the GD auctions would make the name almost free).
Some marketplaces require store credit to be used in some way or maybe have a credit card on account that can be charged.
Within the domain industry it really is a question that is one for the ages. No one seems to be in agreement from platform to platform. There is no almost universal agreement between domainers, but it would be nice if these companies got together and try to do something on a collective, universal basis.
@Caleb Tweed sent me a DM saying he tried have the EsoTalk thread reopened so he could reply publicly. Related to roll backs, he said:
I just wanted to mention that we [dynadot] do NOT do a rollback system for our Auctions, so the second place bidder still needs to pay their highest bid if they want the domain. We do this system to prevent people scamming the system with the way you mentioned.
In other words, your second highest bid is $50,000, but if it wasn't for the shill bidding you would've paid $25,000. You're effectively getting scammed out of $25,000.
I love dynadot. It's our preferred registrar holding thousands of our domains. But I haven't been able to bring myself to participate in their auctions. Watching domains like EsoTalk.org finish over $1million doesn't give me the feeling that dynadot has much oversight on bidder verified funds.
NameCheap had similar policy of asking 2nd bidder to pay. Posting on Twitter with screenshots of auctions got them to change but It took more than 1 year to get them to change their policy. Now they run the auction again.
Ai registry Vince said they don’t remove shill bids where the shill bidder wasn’t the winner.
I love dynadot. It's our preferred registrar holding thousands of our domains. But I haven't been able to bring myself to participate in their auctions. Watching domains like EsoTalk.org finish over $1million doesn't give me the feeling that dynadot has much oversight on bidder verified funds.
So for the .AI Auctions, the bidding system works the same as the .AI Registry in that we do require at minimum prepay of $100 (or %5 of the total bid, whichever's greater) to be put into the account, and the second bidder does not get the option to pay like our regular auctions.
Regarding our regular auctions, when you say "preloaded funds", do you mean for the user to have their entire potential bid preloaded onto the account already, or just a minimum like the AI Auctions?
So for the .AI Auctions, the bidding system works the same as the .AI Registry in that we do require at minimum prepay of $100 (or %5 of the total bid, whichever's greater) to be put into the account, and the second bidder does not get the option to pay like our regular auctions.
Regarding our regular auctions, when you say "preloaded funds", do you mean for the user to have their entire potential bid preloaded onto the account already, or just a minimum like the AI Auctions?
Regarding our regular auctions, when you say "preloaded funds", do you mean for the user to have their entire potential bid preloaded onto the account already, or just a minimum like the AI Auctions?
I'm glad you asked, It'd be great to have a transparent conversation with a registrar about this.
Respectfully, I think a 5% minimum ie the AI auction requirement is a joke, on top of the even bigger joke: $5 throw away accounts.
Here's my reasoning:
Domain auctions can be intense! -- chasing reserves, bidding wars, extended auction times, domain attachment, buying for a friend, and who knows maybe even squirrels. Buying domains can be just as addicting or profitable as sports betting; auctionHouse is the casino, the bidders are the gamblers.
Casinos issue lines of credit, but do they allow you to bet on todays superbowl extending you the option of:
(a) Fund 100% of your wager within 48 hours after the superbowl ends to keep your account
OR
(b) Forfit your 5% deposit if you fail to fund your wager, and still keep your account.
OR
(c) Forfit your $5 account if you fail to fund your wager.
///
I've won my fair share of domain auction bidding wars that I wish I hadn't won. Had I been given the option to forfit 5% the next day instead of paying the full amount, there are times I gladly would have accepted the insurance option.
IMO, I think nameSilo has the best handle on verified bidder funds. Here's a look at two different namesilo accounts, with an example auction:
Bidding on expired domains requires an adequate amount of Account funds to cover your bid, the renewal cost of this domain, as well as enough funds to pay for all of your active auctions (and their renewals) in which you have the current highest bid.
The table above shows the following information:
Account Balance: Your current total account funds balance
Credit Limit: The credit limit your account currently qualifies to receive. This limit is based upon a number of factors, most notably how long you have been a NameSilo customer. This number is automatically computed and cannot be negotiated. The longer you are a customer with order history (no chargebacks, disputed transactions, etc.), the higher your credit limit will be.
Outstanding Bids: The total amount of bids you have submitted plus renewal fees for all expired domain auctions for which you are currently the leader (not including this auction).
Domain Renewal: The renewal price for the domain associated with this auction.
Bid Range: A range of the bid amounts you can submit for this auction:
The low end of the range is determined by the current bid price. Higher current bids require higher bid intervals.
The bid range is the amount ranging from the current bid price to the amount that is your account balance plus your credit limit, minus the renewal fee and the outstanding balances (your active bids in other auctions). To increase the max amount available for bidding you can add account funds.
Account #1:
Account #2:
For the FraudHunter auction:
Account #1: Can bid up to $5,000 before having to prefund the account with 100% of their desired bid.
Account #2: Can bid up to $209.88 (Account Balance - Outstanding Bids) before having to deposit more funds or wait until the outstanding bids expire, to bid more than $209.88.
This makes the bidder feel like the auction house has a good handle on bidder verified funds, prevents the marketplace from profiting on bids from unverified funding, and ensures a very high number of auctions are paid for. Going back to the casino analogy, imagine how fair it would be if you found out you were playing poker against somebody who promised to pay for their chips but never went back and paid for them!
The credit limit system allows:
-- Credit limits are earned, developed, or limited to account funds.
-- New account bids have to be 100% funded prior to bidding.
-- Nonpayment reduces and/or cancels available account credit
The 5% system allows:
-- Credit is 20X your account funds
-- No benefit for established accounts
-- Nonpayment forfits your your 5% bid deposit.
The $5 system allows:
-- Unlimited credit?
-- New accounts require at least $5 in account spending
-- Nonpayment forfits your ability to bid with that account?
@Caleb Tweed -- For discussion purposes, please try and convince me why the $5 or 5% system is superior.
@Caleb Tweed Did EsoTalk.org get paid for? It just seems that the top auctions of the week should be monitored, with some sort of belief that million dollar bids are verified or held accountable to some degree.
@Caleb Tweed -- I know you might be limited in what you can provide, but if you could provide some internal marketplace statistics about what percentage of auctions end up paid for, that'd go a long way to alleviating some of my concerns with dynadot auctions. Specifically:
What percentage of expired auctions are paid for in the following tiers:
Full Disclose: I haven't monitored what dynadot auctions get bids compared to what ends up getting listed in dynadots last chance auction to have any realistic idea as to what percentage of dynadot auctions are paid for vs are not.
One suggestion I personally have unrelated to verified funds, is I would like to see Last Chance Auctions be moved to a different time zone. I enjoy nameSilo auctions because they finish at midnight California time, which is about 12 hours past normal domain auction end times. The benefits are: Night time auctions attract bidders from different time zones and it gives US domainers something to do in the middle of the night/early morning.
I'm glad you asked, It'd be great to have a transparent conversation with a registrar about this.
Respectfully, I think a 5% minimum ie the AI auction requirement is a joke, on top of the even bigger joke: $5 throw away accounts.
Here's my reasoning:
Domain auctions can be intense! -- chasing reserves, bidding wars, extended auction times, domain attachment, buying for a friend, and who knows maybe even squirrels. Buying domains can be just as addicting or profitable as sports betting; auctionHouse is the casino, the bidders are the gamblers.
Casinos issue lines of credit, but do they allow you to bet on todays superbowl extending you the option of:
(a) Fund 100% of your wager within 48 hours after the superbowl ends to keep your account
OR
(b) Forfit your 5% deposit if you fail to fund your wager, and still keep your account.
OR
(c) Forfit your $5 account if you fail to fund your wager.
///
I've won my fair share of domain auction bidding wars that I wish I hadn't won. Had I been given the option to forfit 5% the next day instead of paying the full amount, there are times I gladly would have accepted the insurance option.
IMO, I think nameSilo has the best handle on verified bidder funds. Here's a look at two different namesilo accounts, with an example auction:
Bidding on expired domains requires an adequate amount of Account funds to cover your bid, the renewal cost of this domain, as well as enough funds to pay for all of your active auctions (and their renewals) in which you have the current highest bid.
The table above shows the following information:
Account Balance: Your current total account funds balance
Credit Limit: The credit limit your account currently qualifies to receive. This limit is based upon a number of factors, most notably how long you have been a NameSilo customer. This number is automatically computed and cannot be negotiated. The longer you are a customer with order history (no chargebacks, disputed transactions, etc.), the higher your credit limit will be.
Outstanding Bids: The total amount of bids you have submitted plus renewal fees for all expired domain auctions for which you are currently the leader (not including this auction).
Domain Renewal: The renewal price for the domain associated with this auction.
Bid Range: A range of the bid amounts you can submit for this auction:
The low end of the range is determined by the current bid price. Higher current bids require higher bid intervals.
The bid range is the amount ranging from the current bid price to the amount that is your account balance plus your credit limit, minus the renewal fee and the outstanding balances (your active bids in other auctions). To increase the max amount available for bidding you can add account funds.
Account #1: Can bid up to $5,000 before having to prefund the account with 100% of their desired bid.
Account #2: Can bid up to $209.88 (Account Balance - Outstanding Bids) before having to deposit more funds or wait until the outstanding bids expire, to bid more than $209.88.
This makes the bidder feel like the auction house has a good handle on bidder verified funds, prevents the marketplace from profiting on bids from unverified funding, and ensures a very high number of auctions are paid for. Going back to the casino analogy, imagine how fair it would be if you found out you were playing poker against somebody who promised to pay for their chips but never went back and paid for them!
The credit limit system allows:
-- Credit limits are earned, developed, or limited to account funds.
-- New account bids have to be 100% funded prior to bidding.
-- Nonpayment reduces and/or cancels available account credit
The 5% system allows:
-- Credit is 20X your account funds
-- No benefit for established accounts
-- Nonpayment forfits your your 5% bid deposit.
The $5 system allows:
-- Unlimited credit?
-- New accounts require at least $5 in account spending
-- Nonpayment forfits your ability to bid with that account?
@Caleb Tweed -- For discussion purposes, please try and convince me why the $5 or 5% system is superior.
The low-bar was mainly for accessibility to users. It allows people who would otherwise not be familiar with Dynadot but might see an interesting name on the Expired Auctions/AI Auctions and still be able to participate, without having to dunk a huge amount of money that would want to be refunded if they ended up losing the auction. I can certainly see how this has become an issue though in cases like this where an enormous amount has been bid and the user may not have any intention of paying.
Hypothetically, if we were going to go the credit route similar to NameSilo, which do you think should take priority in deciding how much credit an account has to bid with? Account age, or Yearly (or lifetime) spending in the account?
@Caleb Tweed Did EsoTalk.org get paid for? It just seems that the top auctions of the week should be monitored, with some sort of belief that million dollar bids are verified or held accountable to some degree.
@Caleb Tweed -- I know you might be limited in what you can provide, but if you could provide some internal marketplace statistics about what percentage of auctions end up paid for, that'd go a long way to alleviating some of my concerns with dynadot auctions. Specifically:
What percentage of expired auctions are paid for in the following tiers:
Full Disclose: I haven't monitored what dynadot auctions get bids compared to what ends up getting listed in dynadots last chance auction to have any realistic idea as to what percentage of dynadot auctions are paid for vs are not.
One suggestion I personally have unrelated to verified funds, is I would like to see Last Chance Auctions be moved to a different time zone. I enjoy nameSilo auctions because they finish at midnight California time, which is about 12 hours past normal domain auction end times. The benefits are: Night time auctions attract bidders from different time zones and it gives US domainers something to do in the middle of the night/early morning.
Not a bad idea! We mainly have most of our auctions around the same time so we can have a dedicated window where we don't do any server maintenance in the day/it just keeps everything fairly uniform, but I'll pass that along to the team for consideration regardless!
