Resolved

[Keith]

@Jackson Elsegood
Regarding transaction 4532982 for CBDcity.com for $11,500...

The buyer took possession via push at godaddy and immediately requested that escrow cancel the deal. I’ve provided loads of email verification to escrow to show my position. Meanwhile they are asking me to work with the buyer to get the domain back.

I’ll need to be paid or I will take legal action. My suggestion is that escrow do a little homework to verify the account push. I’ve done too much business with you guys for you to put this back on me. The buyer is a scam artist and I won’t play games!

 

[Ategy]

I think something overlooked, is that people should realise that legally speaking, they can set anything they want between buyer and seller that could, would or should protect them beyond the scope of Escrow.com (bearing in mind that some clauses could be void depending on the various laws of the jurisdictions involved). Meaning that while negotiating the sale, you could include a term that stipulates the transaction final once the domain has been transferred and that regardless of what it says at Escrow.com, that there is no inspection period.

Obviously that doesn't protect you from the actual crime of someone stealing the domain, but it would give you legal recourse (although I'm not sure if Escrow could do anything about it, since the "added" term would be beyond the scope of their TOS, and more importantly, beyond your agreement with Escrow .. so it might be necessary for you to take the buyer to court)


That being said .. getting back to the discussion .. I think this is yet another thread where everyone on both sides are both right and wrong .. lol.

In a more general global sense, @xynames is right in theory, particularly for traffic/content domains where a longer inspection period is understandable and even necessary. Although I would still like Escrow to clarify the "inspection period" .. as in the end I think he's potentially wrong (just for "1 day inspection periods"), but not based on anything he said, but more based on what I think Escrow means by an actual "1 day inspection period" (see below)

However .. I think a specific situation where a buyer accuses the seller of hacking their account is a pretty obvious case where the Escrow service needs to take immediate action to ascertain what is going on with the domain and secure it ASAP. If this isn't a case they feel they need to step up in, then in all honesty, what's the point of even using Escrow considering all the technical loopholes being discussed already in this thread?

If @Keith already tried talking to several Escrow.com agents, then I think his frustrations are legit in this specific case.

In the meantime, the buyer has the rights to cancel the deal after he got the domain, as long as he returned it within 10 days and this unreasonable rights is backed by escrow.com.

Note that either way the buyer does not have 10 days to cancel ... they have to cancel within the "inspection period", then they have 10 days to INITIATE the return the domain otherwise the seller gets the money. So in theory that 10 days could be 15+ days without a fast manual transfer .. (possibly as long as 15+ YEARS if the domain is at Network Solutions .. lol)


Beyond this point I think there is a big question .. which is what exactly does a 1 day inspection period even mean? I know I've had that stage move faster than 24 hours in the past (when I'm pretty sure the buyer didn't have time to close things on their end).

I think the confusion is that it's more a of logic flaw within the Escrow.com platform .. as I think they count the transaction day as a day. So yes inspection period looks like "one" day .. but "1 day" is effectively "zero more days".

What I'm trying to say makes more sense when talking about more days (as I think would be more normal with physical products. For example, "2 Days" could mean 48 hours .. but could also simply mean to include the current day and the following day, so effectively about a day. Obviously with the international nature of domain sales it can't even really be set to "midnight" (BUT .. unfortunately since there is no official definition it could justifiably be interpreted multiple ways.).

Escrow needs to set an actual time and/or countdown clock to remove any and all doubt and ambiguity.

At least that was my impression as I'm pretty sure (not 100%) that one of my prior transactions, the "1 day" inspection period was closer to 0 hours than it was 24 hours (which as a seller I was very happy about). I really don't remember the exact time .. but I just remember thinking that indeed the "one day" was more of a logic flaw (not really a bug .. but kinda a case of bad communication and poor clarity).

I'm thinking maybe it was a side effect of them having one platform for all their transactions including physical products.

Besides .. if that were really the case where buyers could cancel within a "FULL" day, then there should be notices warning to not do any push or transfer with a 60 day lock (more than just in the TOS). But at the same time I think doing a push/transfer with the 60 day lock is far and away your best protection as a seller. Because in cases like this one, Escrow.com would have 60 days to figure it all out with the buyer, seller, and registrars involved, before the domain could be gone forever, re-transferred to some registrar overseas.

Anyhow .. I'll repeat again like a few days ago .. rather than speculating, guessing or arguing .. how about we simply ask Escrow what "1 day inspection period" actually means EXACTLY? (@Jackson Elsegood? What say you on this matter? lol)


All that said .. regardless of everything everyone has said so far ..
Escrow.com needs to create a 0 day inspection option.
(Or otherwise allow us to remove inspection periods completely)

Unless "1 day" is like I suspect and actually means to include the current day .. which equates to no actual inspection period .. in which case that fact needs to be SIGNIFICANTLY MORE clarified).


Because I certainly understand the need for an inspection period for most conventional products and services .. however .. in the case of "sold as is" domains with no promises of traffic/content, then an inspection period is just a needless potential loophole to be exploited.

 

[carob]

Because I certainly understand the need for an inspection period for most conventional products and services .. however .. in the case of "sold as is" domains with no promises of traffic/content, then an inspection period is just a needless potential loophole to be exploited.

Interesting point.

In what way could a domain turn out be "not as advertised"?

Would an IDN or typo qualify or is that just tough luck to the buyer?

 

[Ategy]

Hmmmn .. I don't think you understood what I was trying to get to.

Effectively as domainers there are 3 types of escrow transactions:

#1- Transactions of everything aside from domains .. which I'm guessing most of the time often require an inspection period. #1 is likely the reason inspection periods were built into the Escrow.com platform. But in all honesty .. for the sake of this discussion .. who cares about these transactions as they have zero relevance to domainers .. no point discussing these here aside from them being the obvious reason "inspection periods" exist in the first place.

#2- Transaction of "as is" domain sales. This is where it not even about if a domain is "as advertised" or not. Because there's nothing advertised beyond ownership of the domain. As long as nothing more than the actual domain is promised, then any inspection period is a pointless feature that's very existence only serves to widen loopholes to be exploited by a buyer with bad intentions.

#3- Transaction of "domains+". With the "+" in this case potentially being PROMISED traffic (or web site content). So it's not about anything hidden "not being as advertised" .. this would be (unhidden) things that were actually promised as part of the sales agreement. In these cases I most certainly could understand the need for an inspection period to verify traffic and/or audit content, etc. But this type of transaction, like #1, also is pretty much irrelevant to most domainers who simply sell domains "as is" (ie transaction type #2)

Keep in mind that I'm pretty sure #2 represents a significant majority of domain sales at Escrow .. and as such I really think they need to work into their platform an option with no inspection period.


The question on IDN is really beyond the scope of this discussion on just Escrow.com. While I would 100% hope that at Escrow.com, if a seller entered an IDN domain, that it would show up as the longer version of the domain to the buyer. But it's a concern that's applicable to all domain transactions (not just those via escrow).

As for typos .. pretty much the same .. effectively off topic to this conversation as it doesn't really have anything specific to Escrow beyond any other domain transaction on any type of platform, escrow or otherwise. If the domain is part of the contract, it's hard to argue the buyer didn't know it was a typo. Plus .. how's the seller to know the buyer didn't want the typo.

I think what you're asking though .. I don't want to take this discussion off-topic, but quickly I'll say that it could be that a domains is blacklisted by email spam guards or at google. Again though .. I think these are beyond the scope of #2 type of transactions. Obviously these are things a buyer or seller could negotiate and choose to include in any sales contract .. but in those rare situations the transaction becomes a type 3 transaction .. where it would not be unreasonable to include an inspection period if either party wanted it.

 

[kam]

Anyhow .. I'll repeat again like a few days ago .. rather than speculating, guessing or arguing .. how about we simply ask Escrow what "1 day inspection period" actually means EXACTLY? (@Jackson Elsegood? What say you on this matter? lol)


All that said .. regardless of everything everyone has said so far ..
Escrow.com needs to create a 0 day inspection option.
(Or otherwise allow us to remove inspection periods completely)

Unless "1 day" is like I suspect and actually means to include the current day .. which equates to no actual inspection period .. in which case that fact needs to be SIGNIFICANTLY MORE clarified).


Because I certainly understand the need for an inspection period for most conventional products and services .. however .. in the case of "sold as is" domains with no promises of traffic/content, then an inspection period is just a needless potential loophole to be exploited.

Escrow.com have a long history in the escrow business.

Escrow.com webpage back in 2005 and 2006
https://web.archive.org/web/20060509011232/https://www.escrow.com/
https://web.archive.org/web/20060509011232/https://www.escrow.com/


The inspection period was originally used for the eBay and vehicle trading.
==================
Quote from:
https://www.escrow.com/buy/classic-cars

Using an audited, bonded escrow service eliminates fraud from all your transactions. This is because in an escrow transaction, you can stipulate the terms of the inspection period and can include provisions to have a mechanic inspect the vehicle. If the vehicle does not pass the inspection, you have the opportunity to send the vehicle back and your escrow provider will disburse your funds back into your bank account.

===============

When they expand their business to include domain niche, they just re-use the inspection period for domain escrow.
That's why we found that the 'inspection period' is irrelevant to domain business.

 

[cbdcity]

Ok , wow, got this thread mailed to me by Godddaddy.

In have nothing to hide in this case. Just to make clear that Keith here is kind of pissed on escrow and therefore calls me a thief. There was quite some unclarity during this transaction and just like Keith was afraid to lose his domain, I was afraid to release the funds and to loose my 11.5 k investment without getting the domain, I was always in contact with Keith via mail, so for him to freak out here and saying I'm a scammer is just ridiculous. The GoDaddy procedure was not flawless and just having another GoDaddy account being hacked made me unsure, so I wanted to clear that with Godaddy before releasing the funds. I have mailed that to Keith at once, I was not afraid of a lawsuit or what so ever. It was a misunderstanding and from my view handled as such, if Keith thinks otherwise that I can't help him. I thank him for selling the domain and I hope he will enjoy his 11.5 k.

Case closed imo.

Have a nice day you all!

PS Totally agreeing that policy of Escrwo is unclear, but from my point of view that was good when I was afraid to lose my investment, so I get Keith's point there, but there was no mal-intent here from my side.

 

[cbdcity]

I didn’t give all the details but from my perspective it was an attempted theft. Hopefully the mods can update the title and we all move on.

Well, that was just not the case and I hope you understand that without being able to defend myself, that being accused of trying to scam you is kind of offensive. Your "perspective" hopefully would have changed by now, since you received the money exactly less than a day later, as I promised you in our email correspondence. I hope you accept it as a fact.

 

[Keith]

Well, that was just not the case and I hope you understand that without being able to defend myself, that being accused of trying to scam you is kind of offensive. Your "perspective" hopefully would have changed by now, since you received the money exactly less than a day later, as I promised you in our email correspondence. I hope you accept it as a fact.

The GoDaddy procedure was not flawless and just having another GoDaddy account being hacked made me unsure, so I wanted to clear that with Godaddy before releasing the funds.

But this isn’t what happened. The domain was accepted into your godaddy account, the same account you provided info for. Minutes later you tried to cancel the transaction with escrow. That’s certainly not trying to clear anything up with godaddy.

I would’ve understood completely if you emailed escrow and me to say there was an issue at godaddy and you needed extra time. No problem there. The timing and sequence of events led me to believe it was a scam. It ended up working out and we got it done which is great.

The mods were asked pages ago to update the title to resolved and close this thread. They haven’t done that for whatever reason.

 

[DotKing]

I was afraid to release the funds and to loose my 11.5 k investment without getting the domain

So, you didn't CANCEL transaction at Escrow after you accept domain?

 

[Keith]

So, you didn't CANCEL transaction at Escrow after you accept domain?

I just looked at the times on the emails.

At 3:40 pm godaddy sent confirmation that the account change was complete. At 3:51 I emailed the buyer and asked him to please accept at escrow. I got no response. At 4:13 pm, 33 minutes later, escrow sent an email saying the buyer requested to cancel the transaction.

 

[cbdcity]

Hey Guys,

For me this is a done deal in good conscience and faith,think whatever you like, not going to spend more time on this....

Not going to respond here anymore. All the best.

 

[Ategy]

@cbdcity & @Keith

Did @cbdcity accuse @Keith of hacking @cbdcity's GoDaddy account? And if so, what exactly were the words used? When exactly was it said/written?

Because at the end of the day, that's a huge deal and a huge part of why someone could or couldn't justifiably be accused of really crossing a line here.


Also .. @cbdcity .. while in your mind from your perspective it's very possible you genuinely had no bad intent, you really owe an explanation for the timing of your cancellation and lack of direct response after 3:51pm.


I'm not saying you're guilty of anything, but without answering those questions, your claims of innocence are effectively meaningless. If you genuinely are hoping to clear your name, I highly suggest you be a little more detailed.

 

[Keith]

@cbdcity & @Keith

Did @cbdcity accuse @Keith of hacking @cbdcity's GoDaddy account? And if so, what exactly were the words used? When exactly was it said/written?

Because at the end of the day, that's a huge deal and a huge part of why someone could or couldn't justifiably be accused of really crossing a line here.


Also .. @cbdcity .. while in your mind from your perspective it's very possible you genuinely had no bad intent, you really owe an explanation for the timing of your cancellation and lack of direct response after 3:51pm.


I'm not saying you're guilty of anything, but without answering those questions, your claims of innocence are effectively meaningless. If you genuinely are hoping to clear your name, I highly suggest you be a little more detailed.

This is an email from the buyer at 5:12 pm, 1 hour after asking escrow to cancel...

On Apr 4, 2019, at 5:12 PM, Filip Ernest <[email protected]> wrote:

Keith Can you explain one thing to me, how and why did you send it in the first place to the incorrect godaddy account, its a total clusterfuck now, that account got hacked and the email for password retrieval is [email protected], please explain that

Filip Ernest

I sent the domain to an account that the buyer provided info for. It’s all in the email chain.

 

[Ategy]

@Keith .. I highly suggest you edit out both the full emails (or at least the parts left of @) and the full name of the person involved. (before the 30 minute limit)

Also .. was the gMail account your email? Otherwise I don't see an accusation of you hacking his account.

If the K__ initials in the gmail account are yours .. then there is indeed a huge fraud alert here .. as in theory there could be reason for @cbdcity to think you hacked his account .. or more frightfully .. he set up that email and GoDaddy account for the very reason to create the illusion he didn't receive the domain.

I'm thinking it's also very likely something else happened. Automated communication and emails from GoDaddy are beyond horrendous and inexcusably confusing. Sometimes both buyer and seller get the same email .. and the language used in transfers can be confusing in cases of sales and a transfer between 2 different people as it's the same emails and language as if you transferred the domain to yourself in many cases.

GoDaddy REALLY needs to clean up and audit their automated emails .. and in the case of transfers, needs to use wording that does not lead to confusion keeping in mind transfers can be from person A to person A as well as from person A to person B! I'm not saying this was what was going on here .. but GoDaddy really makes things very confusing at times simply due to the language and pronouns they use in their automated emails. Worse than that, often automated emails don't even get sent the first time.

 

[xynames]

All you have to do is read OP’s posts about how he won’t take any sh*t and won’t be pushed around and could give a damn about TOS and it makes perfect sense that he jumped the gun and misinterpreted what was going on. I’ve been saying that all along. And now we have the buyer himself who has come in and clarified this too. Plus OP gives us an email not even from buyer to support what he thought was going on?

We still learned from this thread. Learned that we should know what the TOS of an escrow contract are.

And now we just learned, as always, that there are two sides to every story.

 

[Keith]

Yes, that’s my email. The accusation that I’d hack an account I’m pushing to is absurd. I wouldn’t have the first clue how to do that, nor would I want to!

 

[Keith]

All you have to do is read OP’s posts about how he won’t take any sh*t and won’t be pushed around and could give a damn about TOS and it makes perfect sense that he jumped the gun and misinterpreted what was going on. I’ve been saying that all along. And now we have the buyer himself who has come in and clarified this too. Plus OP gives us an email not even from buyer to support what he thought was going on?

We still learned from this thread. Learned that we should know what the TOS of an escrow contract are.

And now we just learned, as always, that there are two sides to every story.

The email is from the buyer. Once again you have no clue about what’s happening here.

 

[xynames]

Buyer came in here to say that you misinterpreted his actions. As always two sides to every story. Nothing anyone says will ever change the way a stubborn person thinks.

But - thanks for helping us learn the escrow.com TOS. Too bad It doesn’t seem like you learned anything though if you’re still saying that “TOS don’t matter” and “I won’t read TOS.” History repeats itself for those who won’t learn.

It shouldn’t be solely about who is right or wrong but also about learning from our past actions.

 

[Keith]

Buyer came in here to say that you misinterpreted his actions.

That’s his opinion. His actions say otherwise.

 

[Ategy]

Well .. if he's accusing you of sending the domain to an account with your email then that is a false accusation of fraud.

What I don't understand is how he would ever even know the password retrieval email for any account that isn't indeed actually his own? (This is a big reason why the buyer really needs to clarify things and owes an explanation to Keith and very likely an apology at the very least)

So .. while the string of events most certainly do point to attempted fraud .. I unfortunately can't rule out a clarity issue on GoDaddy's side leading to confusion from the buyer. It's equally possible the buyer got confused by something that wasn't GoDaddy's fault at all.


@xynames .. Your points about Escrow.com in general are not necessarily wrong .. and you're definitely correct that this thread has been informative and helpful to shine a light on the overall Escrow process .. but in all fairness to @Keith .. for this specific transaction, there is significant vital information the buyer has not addressed. Namely the buyer accusing Keith sending the domain to an account controlled by Keith.

Whether this was done by malice or confusion .. either way Keith is totally justified to have been concerned and upset (because of the unique circumstances such an extreme accusation bring to an incomplete transaction).

If indeed Keith did then contact Escrow multiple times explaining that the buyer was accusing him of sending the domain to the *sellers own* account, then it's totally wrong for Escrow to have told Keith to deal with the buyer ... as I think most would agree that it was fair for Keith to assume that a buyer who accuses the seller of fraudulently sending the domain to the seller's account, is by simple deduction, claiming that he as the buyer does not have full control nor actual ownership of the domain.

Effectively the real question boils down to why would Escrow ask the seller to arrange for the buyer to return the domain when the buyer is claiming he doesn't have full control of the domain? The only thing that could otherwise come into play is if Keith didn't explain the buyer's accusation clearly enough (which I doubt is the case .. but obviously I couldn't say with 100% certainty).

If anything, Escrow should have stepped in to clarify the situation (because of the explicit accusation from the buyer) .. as I'll be the first to say that there's a good possibility that nobody had real fraudulent intent here, and that all this could genuinely be the result of the buyer not having a complete grasp of the GoDaddy platform or of domain transfers in general.

After all the "inspection period" talk throughout this thread .. the issue at play here really is not at all an inspection period issue .. as the inspection period only begins after the buyer receives the domain .. but in this case the buyer is implying to the seller that the buyer hasn't even received the domain yet (and more importantly, that the buyer has not received the domain because of the accused fraudulent action of the seller sending the domain to an account controlled by the seller instead of one controlled by the buyer).

 

[JB Lions]

This might not be it at all but I had a recent sale in which the person was confused. At Godaddy, I pushed the domain over to his account, they rejected it because there was a lock, they wanted to transfer out to another registrar. When you push at GoDaddy, you have a few different options. I usually pick the use the Details from the buyer's account. But if they want to transfer out, then you push the domain over keeping your details, so there isn't a lock. So the domain is in their account but with your information. That might throw some people off.

-----------------------
I've used Escrow.com without much of an issue. Had a recent one where the buyer had a bunch of different email addresses and he got the domain but wouldn't finish up logging into Escrow and hitting the button saying he got it. We got in a 3 way email and worked it all out. It's annoying since I like to get things going and get things done, so sometimes they don't complete that extra step. But at the end it gets handled.

----------------------
Little confused on some recommending Epik "escrow" since from what I've read they're not an actual accredited Escrow. I think a more valid comparison would be GoDaddy or Namesilo etc, other registrars that also have a Marketplace. Whenever I see a big sale here, I think Chocolate, I know the CBDOil, it's usually thru Escrow.com. The sale in this thread thru Escrow.com. With Epik you have to bring them thru that registrar, which seems like an extra hurdle in closing a sale, which is dumb to be. My usual reply for a sale is, the domain is regged at GoDaddy, if you already have an account there or want to open one up, it's an easy push OR you can buy a transfer at your favorite registrar. I don't force the deal thru a registrar of my choosing. Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong on that.

For @Keith - even with this incident, are you going to continue to use Escrow.com for future sales or picking another one?