Resolved

[Keith]

@Jackson Elsegood
Regarding transaction 4532982 for CBDcity.com for $11,500...

The buyer took possession via push at godaddy and immediately requested that escrow cancel the deal. I’ve provided loads of email verification to escrow to show my position. Meanwhile they are asking me to work with the buyer to get the domain back.

I’ll need to be paid or I will take legal action. My suggestion is that escrow do a little homework to verify the account push. I’ve done too much business with you guys for you to put this back on me. The buyer is a scam artist and I won’t play games!

 

[Keith]

Yet they are still labeled a "thief" in the thread title. It seems to me such words are used loosely and freely far too often on this forum before the dust settles. Then all of a sudden everything is hunky dory. Just saying.

I didn’t give all the details but from my perspective it was an attempted theft. Hopefully the mods can update the title and we all move on.

 

[EbookLover]

Maybe the reason OP isn’t clarifying anything is because he made a mistake.

It's a possibility.

Until OP comes in and clarifies you’re all just running with incomplete facts

And you?

 

[hawkeye]

Maybe OP could have used better wording. Maybe. But, still, it was clear to me.

And to everyone else.

 

[EbookLover]

If you're not going to read, don't post.

You would do well to follow your own advice.

 

[Shimmy]

Yes, concierge should have been used in this situation

For what possible reason? Low 5 figures is not a big sale. Normal Escrow works smoothly 99.99% of the time in this situation. When it doesn't Escrow.com needs to be contacted, and after some frustration it works out. You want to throw more dollars at Escrow.com so they do their job? Stopping attempted theft is supposed to be done at a basic level. As such it did. The only problem here was lazy Escrow.com employees. If Escrow.com employees were not being lazy, there would be no posting here, and seller would have been paid after the investigation

 

[xynames]

Keith: that’s where you’re wrong. Or rather - where you (and all of us domainers) wish you were right. Sadly, it’s not the case.

Unfortunately specific performance is not something you may ask escrow to undertake. If you feel that buyer is trying to get out of some kind of contract it’s up to you to enforce it specifically. Not up to escrow.

The legal right of cancellation in any escrow.com transaction is there. Including domains.

So when escrow advised you to try to get the domain back after buyer tried to cancel, this was not “thief promotion” - this was reality.

Believe me pal if buyer had stuck to trying to cancel it would have been your job to get that domain back, or sue buyer for specific performance. In the meantime escrow would have frozen funds pending either mutual agreement by buyer and seller, or court order.

If there is one valid lesson we might all learn from this thread it’s the reality of who is responsible in a typical regular escrow for making sure the deal goes through as far as transfer and acceptance of whatever is being sold - buyer and seller (not escrow).

 

[xynames]

Keith: that’s where you’re wrong. Or rather - where you (and all of us domainers) wish you were right. Sadly, it’s not the case.

The legal right of cancellation in any escrow.com transaction is there. Including domains.

 

[karmaco]

I understand Keiths position, and may have done the same thing if I didn't have a direct contact that could solve the issue.

The problem with creating threads like this is that it harms our ability to use Escrow.com in the future.

I'm currently closing a mid 5 figure deal that was very tough to get done because of all the bad PR and reviews that Escrow.com have.

So not all of us have a person at Escrow and only get fast assistance with a problem if we complain here at NP.

Sorry that people reporting problems with Escrow here is inconveniencing you but their bad rep is their own doing.

 

[Josh R]

So not all of us have a person at Escrow and only get fast assistance with a problem if we complain here at NP.

Sorry that people reporting problems with Escrow here is inconveniencing you but their bad rep is their own doing.

• I also don’t have a direct contact at Escrow but I probably would have privately contacted Jackson first.

• A public thread that says “Escrow.com is protecting a thief” is inconveniencing every person that sells domains through them I think you mean.

• Yep. It’s their fault. Did I say otherwise?


I think that when threads like these are solved quickly, NamePros should close the thread so that it doesn’t show up in search engines...

Side note: I’ve never had an issue with Escrow.com but may have to look for alternatives if their reputation hurts my ability to get a deal done. Hopefully the can invest in some good PR as they have been instrumental in most of the industries largest domain transactions.

 

[Josh R]

I am glad that the situation is apparently resolved. We have learned a few things about escrow (generically) during the thread. I agree with those who say that the title should never have been so inflammatory and in the very least it should be changed to something like "Issue in Escrow.com transaction" or ideally "Escrow.com transaction issue resolved" now. Hopefully @NamePros will change the title.

Exactly

 

[uzver]

I am assuming nothing. Is there something you could say that would preempt the escrow.com TOS which allow buyer to cancel including after making payment?

I don’t want to interfere, but everyone knows buyer can cancel the transaction after making payment. But the OP clearly said multiple times that the buyer wanted to cancel the transaction after a domain push at GoDaddy.

 

[Internet.Domains]

Yes it could end up in a messy lawsuit where seller tries to force buyer to perform but still the escrow.com TOS do allow it.

Your words, not mine....How's that escrow license helping you now?

 

[Internet.Domains]

Escrows don't get involved in these types of buyer seller disputes.

Oh?....So why have escrow?

 

[xynames]

They’re not going to get it back. Since they were the ones who prompted me to transfer, they need to do some homework and then release funds. Once it’s out of my account it’s time to get paid or there will be bigger issues.

And btw, the inspection period lol - I’d go to court ASAP if they hid behind that. We’re talking about intangible goods which don’t need any inspection whatsoever. The buyer knew exactly what he was getting before he paid and then provided additional details to authenticate his account.

If you want to read the TOS,
https://www.escrow.com/escrow-101/general-escrow-instructions
it is all there. Or you may keep repeating the same thing which just shows that you panicked, understandably, I am not blaming you, but without legal reason.

There is nothing that says Escrow.com assured the seller they will hold the funds until the merchandise is returned. I personally would have panicked too if that was Escrow.com’s exact wording without further details.

It's in the escrow TOS, and the email sent to seller should have had this verbiage somewhere in the email, or even if not quoted in the email, the TOS are the TOS and apply to all escrow.com transactions:

The buyer is responsible for 100% of the escrow fee in the event the transaction is cancelled or the merchandise is returned. During the Buyer Inspection Period, Buyer may reject for any reason by selecting the "Reject" button on the Escrow.com site and following all other instructions to properly reject the merchandise. Upon such rejection, Escrow.com will send Seller an email stating Buyer's decision to reject and return the goods; and Buyer agrees to promptly ship goods to Seller within ten (10) calendar days of formal rejection and insure, at Buyer's expense, the item(s) to the place designated by the Seller in the Seller's profile. Buyer will be responsible for shipping damage if insurance is not purchased. Buyer is aware that merchandise must be rejected in the manner described in order to obtain a refund of the purchase price.

Buyer is aware that regardless of the reason for rejection, Escrowed Property must be returned to the Seller in order for funds to be returned to the Buyer.

In Transactions where the Escrowed Property is a domain name, if a Buyer rejects a domain name (which is not being held by Escrow.com pursuant to a separate holding agreement) within the Inspection Period, return of the domain name from Buyer to Seller must be initiated within ten (10) days of Buyer's rejection. Failure of Buyer to reject or initiate return of the domain name within the specified time periods will cause the Escrow Holder to automatically pay the Seller the purchase price. Seller agrees to cooperate in the return process of the domain. In the event the domain transfer to the Buyer has caused a ICANN imposed registrar lock, the Buyer and Seller agree that the Seller will open an account at the receiving registrar to take possession of the domain or that the funds will be held in escrow until this period expires and the domain can be returned to the Seller’s registrar.


Basically, seller knew or should have known the above. Buyer knew or should have known the above. But whether they knew or not, this is what would have applied:

Upon cancellation request Buyer would have had to return the domain to Seller, or else funds would have eventually been released to Seller. And seller was required by escrow TOS to cooperate to get the domain back, which is why escrow asked him to ask buyer to return it. It was a legitimate request from escrow to ask Seller to try to get the domain back, not any sort of thief protection. That's it, all in black and white, accusations from Seller aside.

You gentlemen may just keep arguing all day long about what "shoulda been" or, just read the escrow.com TOS and know, for future reference, how it works.

 

[Keith]

If you want to read the TOS,
https://www.escrow.com/escrow-101/general-escrow-instructions
it is all there. Or you may keep repeating the same thing which just shows that you panicked, understandably, I am not blaming you, but without legal reason.



It's in the escrow TOS, and the email sent to seller should have had this verbiage somewhere in the email:

The buyer is responsible for 100% of the escrow fee in the event the transaction is cancelled or the merchandise is returned. During the Buyer Inspection Period, Buyer may reject for any reason by selecting the "Reject" button on the Escrow.com site and following all other instructions to properly reject the merchandise. Upon such rejection, Escrow.com will send Seller an email stating Buyer's decision to reject and return the goods; and Buyer agrees to promptly ship goods to Seller within ten (10) calendar days of formal rejection and insure, at Buyer's expense, the item(s) to the place designated by the Seller in the Seller's profile. Buyer will be responsible for shipping damage if insurance is not purchased. Buyer is aware that merchandise must be rejected in the manner described in order to obtain a refund of the purchase price.

Buyer is aware that regardless of the reason for rejection, Escrowed Property must be returned to the Seller in order for funds to be returned to the Buyer.

In Transactions where the Escrowed Property is a domain name, if a Buyer rejects a domain name (which is not being held by Escrow.com pursuant to a separate holding agreement) within the Inspection Period, return of the domain name from Buyer to Seller must be initiated within ten (10) days of Buyer's rejection. Failure of Buyer to reject or initiate return of the domain name within the specified time periods will cause the Escrow Holder to automatically pay the Seller the purchase price. Seller agrees to cooperate in the return process of the domain. In the event the domain transfer to the Buyer has caused a ICANN imposed registrar lock, the Buyer and Seller agree that the Seller will open an account at the receiving registrar to take possession of the domain or that the funds will be held in escrow until this period expires and the domain can be returned to the Seller’s registrar.


Basically, seller knew or should have known the above. Buyer knew or should have known the above. But whether they knew or not, this is what would have applied:

Upon cancellation request Buyer would have had to return the domain to Seller, or else funds would have eventually been released to Seller. And seller was required by escrow TOS to cooperate to get the domain back, which is why escrow asked him to ask buyer to return it. It was a legitimate request from escrow to ask Seller to try to get the domain back, not any sort of thief protection. That's it, all in black and white, accusations from Seller aside.

You guys may just keep arguing all day long about what "shoulda been" or, just read the escrow.com TOS and know, for future reference, how it works.

I don’t care about their TOS and I doubt it would hold up in court.

They collected payment, gathered all necessary info to validate the buyers account, and based on that, asked me to relinquish control of my asset.

There isn’t any going back at that point. Maybe you’d let them run over you but that shit won’t fly with me.

 

[Keith]

Well, if you take that attitude, then I understand why you come in here and call escrow a thief protector and buyer a thief, and won't back down. The TOS would have protected you by eventually releasing the funds to you if buyer didn't return the domain.

If what you're saying is that nooooo I wouldn't accept the domain back I want my moneyyyyy that wouldn't hold up and you could just waste you time and money suing.

When you ask the seller to try to get the domain back that you just asked them to transfer, you’re on the scammers side. All the buyer had to do is say they never got the domain and prob would’ve got refunded.

And keep in mind he was saying I hacked his account... bad look.

 

[Keith]

I learned from Escrow.com rep that they have connections with GoDaddy and they can verify whether or not an account change occurred.

Nevertheless, I always keep [email protected] in CC when I receive instructions from the buyer as to where they want to receive the domain (GoDaddy account #, etc).

I immediately called godaddy premiere services and was told they would not provide any info to escrow. They wouldn’t give me any info of the buyer either.

 

[KWNG]

Its unfortunate that Keith had to go through this. I’ve learnt heaps from this thread. I will never push a domain ever again.

 

[forge]

What? Connections?........I believe this subject needs some clarity. What about registrars with no connections?

All GoDaddy auctions (and I believe BIN sales) with a final value over $5,000 go directly to Escrow.com. And GoDaddy's commission on the sale is automatically deducted from the seller's proceeds before Escrow.com completes the transaction. That's an insane amount of business. So there's that.

 

[Keith]

This isn’t a case of the buyer simply saying they didn’t want the domain. It went well beyond that.

- The accusations that I hacked the receiving godaddy account...

- Escrow putting it on me to recover the domain, after instructing me to transfer...

- Escrow not showing any interest in doing homework to track the domain...

- Months of negotiating only for the buyer to immediately back out after taking possession of the asset...

The first response from escrow should’ve been to say that they would launch a complete investigation. That didn’t happen.

Now, as far as TOS is concerned...I don’t care. Not one time did escrow state that I was bound by TOS to reverse the domain transfer, even after I threatened legal action. Hmm, I wonder why that was the case?!

The integrity of the service is the most important aspect from a customers perspective, not a TOS that nobody ever reads. In this case I did everything asked of me from the company. At that point it’s up to the company to make sure the buyer does the same.

 

[wwwweb]

This isn’t a case of the buyer simply saying they didn’t want the domain. It went well beyond that.

- The accusations that I hacked the receiving godaddy account...

- Escrow putting it on me to recover the domain, after instructing me to transfer...

- Escrow not showing any interest in doing homework to track the domain...

- Months of negotiating only for the buyer to immediately back out after taking possession of the asset...

The first response from escrow should’ve been to say that they would launch a complete investigation. That didn’t happen.

Now, as far as TOS is concerned...I don’t care. Not one time did escrow state that I was bound by TOS to reverse the domain transfer, even after I threatened legal action. Hmm, I wonder why that was the case?!

The integrity of the service is the most important aspect from a customers perspective, not a TOS that nobody ever reads. In this case I did everything asked of me from the company. At that point it’s up to the company to make sure the buyer does the same.

Maybe this person was stoned, and later came to their senses. I have had interesting negotiations in this space, and there are some characters in play for sure.

Escrow should have been able
to do a simple Whois pull to see something occurred.

If you read Domain King Rick’s tweet from a few weeks ago, he actually got an escrow employee fired, by the way they spoke to him in an email, the CEO of Freelancer caught the tweet.

Weekly employee meetings to go over scenarios that come up, and could be handled better. Letting some veteran employees write a FAQ of what to do?

In 2019 there should be protocol how to handle this situation. Maybe Step 1 is the two parties discuss, but step 2 would be to send a hold on transaction email, as it is under investigation to at least alert the two parties something is not right, so maybe their own talks can escalate. Who knows this company has been around forever, there should be steps in place to protect all parties. Clearly they want the domain, for the CBD play, on their Grasscity storefront, did they actually think they could have the domain, and funds also? That is the billion dollar question. Had they put the domain under privacy, and denied denied denied what simple step recourse could Keith have had outside starting his own legal action?

Concierge is a high margin product, and after this I am sure Keith will probably use it, and so will many others, but it kind of defeats the purpose of escrow, but what choice does one have, it’s not worth the frustration of above.

 

[Ategy]

@cbdcity & @Keith

Did @cbdcity accuse @Keith of hacking @cbdcity's GoDaddy account? And if so, what exactly were the words used? When exactly was it said/written?

Because at the end of the day, that's a huge deal and a huge part of why someone could or couldn't justifiably be accused of really crossing a line here.


Also .. @cbdcity .. while in your mind from your perspective it's very possible you genuinely had no bad intent, you really owe an explanation for the timing of your cancellation and lack of direct response after 3:51pm.


I'm not saying you're guilty of anything, but without answering those questions, your claims of innocence are effectively meaningless. If you genuinely are hoping to clear your name, I highly suggest you be a little more detailed.

 

[xynames]

Buyer came in here to say that you misinterpreted his actions. As always two sides to every story. Nothing anyone says will ever change the way a stubborn person thinks.

But - thanks for helping us learn the escrow.com TOS. Too bad It doesn’t seem like you learned anything though if you’re still saying that “TOS don’t matter” and “I won’t read TOS.” History repeats itself for those who won’t learn.

It shouldn’t be solely about who is right or wrong but also about learning from our past actions.

 

[JB Lions]

This might not be it at all but I had a recent sale in which the person was confused. At Godaddy, I pushed the domain over to his account, they rejected it because there was a lock, they wanted to transfer out to another registrar. When you push at GoDaddy, you have a few different options. I usually pick the use the Details from the buyer's account. But if they want to transfer out, then you push the domain over keeping your details, so there isn't a lock. So the domain is in their account but with your information. That might throw some people off.

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I've used Escrow.com without much of an issue. Had a recent one where the buyer had a bunch of different email addresses and he got the domain but wouldn't finish up logging into Escrow and hitting the button saying he got it. We got in a 3 way email and worked it all out. It's annoying since I like to get things going and get things done, so sometimes they don't complete that extra step. But at the end it gets handled.

----------------------
Little confused on some recommending Epik "escrow" since from what I've read they're not an actual accredited Escrow. I think a more valid comparison would be GoDaddy or Namesilo etc, other registrars that also have a Marketplace. Whenever I see a big sale here, I think Chocolate, I know the CBDOil, it's usually thru Escrow.com. The sale in this thread thru Escrow.com. With Epik you have to bring them thru that registrar, which seems like an extra hurdle in closing a sale, which is dumb to be. My usual reply for a sale is, the domain is regged at GoDaddy, if you already have an account there or want to open one up, it's an easy push OR you can buy a transfer at your favorite registrar. I don't force the deal thru a registrar of my choosing. Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong on that.

For @Keith - even with this incident, are you going to continue to use Escrow.com for future sales or picking another one?

 

[Keith]

For @Keith - even with this incident, are you going to continue to use Escrow.com for future sales or picking another one?

Yes I will use them but only via concierge.

A suggestion would be that they remove the inspection period for domains. There should never be a case where a domain is transferred and the buyer has the option to back out after accepting.