Resolved

[Keith]

@Jackson Elsegood
Regarding transaction 4532982 for CBDcity.com for $11,500...

The buyer took possession via push at godaddy and immediately requested that escrow cancel the deal. I’ve provided loads of email verification to escrow to show my position. Meanwhile they are asking me to work with the buyer to get the domain back.

I’ll need to be paid or I will take legal action. My suggestion is that escrow do a little homework to verify the account push. I’ve done too much business with you guys for you to put this back on me. The buyer is a scam artist and I won’t play games!

 

[wwwweb]

I suspect this might be the whole point of this sorry excercise: "motivating" people to use their concierge service. Risky business strategy, especially with Epik's very competitive offer, IMO... but what the heck do I know

The one vulnerability has always been the seller after push. If buyer fails to close out transaction, the entire scenario falls on you to prove transfer was completed, then this starts the inspection period. Some reps will accept the push emails, others are hesistant, and actually want confirmation from buyer. Since buyer did not start inspection period, and it was forced, this caused another mandatory 1 day hold, whatever clause that is, and then finally after that closes, and all is good, in another day or so you get your closing transaction statement.

Let’s not confuse Escrow, and Epik. Epik is a register so basically they can transact, and confirm everything in house. Rob is super accessible, and can usually sort out any major issues without much follow up. Epik is a transaction service because they are able to transact domains given they own a register, and they are in the business of buying, and selling domain, among other things. Either way, if Epik buyer fails at any step, your name is always protected because it is within the Epik register. If Epik has chargeback issues they simply make the buyer hold the domain st Epik, which is still fully functional until this period lapses. One is more formal, and one is more practical, but they are two totally different models, and should not be confused, or pooled into the same business category.

 

[cbdcity]

Ok , wow, got this thread mailed to me by Godddaddy.

In have nothing to hide in this case. Just to make clear that Keith here is kind of pissed on escrow and therefore calls me a thief. There was quite some unclarity during this transaction and just like Keith was afraid to lose his domain, I was afraid to release the funds and to loose my 11.5 k investment without getting the domain, I was always in contact with Keith via mail, so for him to freak out here and saying I'm a scammer is just ridiculous. The GoDaddy procedure was not flawless and just having another GoDaddy account being hacked made me unsure, so I wanted to clear that with Godaddy before releasing the funds. I have mailed that to Keith at once, I was not afraid of a lawsuit or what so ever. It was a misunderstanding and from my view handled as such, if Keith thinks otherwise that I can't help him. I thank him for selling the domain and I hope he will enjoy his 11.5 k.

Case closed imo.

Have a nice day you all!

PS Totally agreeing that policy of Escrwo is unclear, but from my point of view that was good when I was afraid to lose my investment, so I get Keith's point there, but there was no mal-intent here from my side.

 

[Recons.Com]

I read that. But then OP said buyer clicked to accept domain. Why would buyer do both of those things. The facts don’t compute.

I believe "accepted domain" referred to his actions at the registrar. But then, instead of confirming the receipt at escrow, he tried to cancel the transaction. And escrow.com's reaction was most weird, proposing that the seller works it out with buyer. It is like a victim offered by police to work out his differences by perpetrator.

So, even if the the problem is resolved, escrow.com getting this thread as result is not undeserved.

 

[EbookLover]

Because most people are honest.

You have to consider the industry the domain targets and many other factors before assessing the trust level. If you can't assess the trust level, then use concierge service and stop trying to save a few dollars just because you want to believe "most people are honest" across the board.

That said, if true, Escrow.com was certainly wrong to put the burden on you to try to get your domain back if you followed protocol as a seller. But it is my guess they just want people to use concierge service if they want better security. Therefore if you don't, you're on your own. despite using Escrow for protection.

It is my belief that had you not tagged Escrow's contact here on NP and had you not created a clickbaity title, you may have not gotten any action. So I cannot blame you for that.

I have seen it time and time again on this and other forums. When you get nasty on a public venue, you get results from these companies that you may never get if you just keep silent and try to resolve things only using the tools they give you.

 

[wwwweb]

For what possible reason? Low 5 figures is not a big sale. Normal Escrow works smoothly 99.99% of the time in this situation. When it doesn't Escrow.com needs to be contacted, and after some frustration it works out. You want to throw more dollars at Escrow.com so they do their job? Stopping attempted theft is supposed to be done at a basic level. As such it did. The only problem here was lazy Escrow.com employees. If Escrow.com employees were not being lazy, there would be no posting here, and seller would have been paid after the investigation

I paid for escrow fees, and concierge on a $30K sale, and it cost me a total of $534, Low 5 figures is a big sale, that is why he is saying transfer my money, otherwise if buyer doesn't want it, they are within their inspection period to kill the deal. I guess maybe in this canna so called space you have to tread a bit more carefully than you did with techies. I agree with everything you say, but that is in a perfect world, and we don't live in a perfect world. I mean if the fees were about $300 for concierge to avoid this headache, I am sure the seller has spent more than that in their time dealing with this in frustration. I think a good majority of sellers here would have opted for concierge in this given situation. Yes, you can save a few bucks by not using it, but I am sure Keith is making a decent margin, that he would want to speed up the closing, and take away some of the post transfer frustration which would have avoided this whole scenario. I understand this thread is more about what happend in terms of support after the sale, but that in itself is within the corporate structure, and hopefully this is a learning moment.

The actions of the buyer are not escrows fault, nor the sellers, it is simply the buyer, and whatever reason they thought they could get away with this perfect plan. Given the situation, it has gone past both parties talking to each other, the transaction needed to be put on hold, and investigated. The confirmation emails, and maybe giving permission to an account manager to talk to escrow regarding the confirmation of transfer, and take it from there.

 

[xynames]

In the event of a dispute is when you may say that things will or will not go a certain way. Not necessarily before.

As well, for a lot of reasons, people don't want to deal with Epik. Lot of hurdles just to get the free escrow services for NP Members, we have gone over this many times.

I also read this, perhaps unclear what it means: Maybe you may tell me?
http://www.epik.com/services/escrow/
EPIK
Cancellation policies
Both parties have the right to cancel the transaction without penalties, until the escrow is concluded. If buyer has already submitted payment, Epik will reimburse.*

*In any case of cancellation that requires a reimbursement, Epik reserves the right to deduct escrow fees in addition to any other applicable penalties and fees, regardless of who requested the cancellation.

"Until the escrow is concluded" sounds to me like..."Until the escrow is concluded." especially when you couple it with the sentence about "if buyer has already submitted payment" it sounds like cancellation may be effected at Epik by either party, even after buyer has already submitted payment.

Especially when Epik refers to "deduct[ing] escrow fees" after cancellation. What is there to deduct cancellation fees from, unless...buyer has already paid? But, you tell me how you read it....


Anyway, you guys go where you feel comfortable. UNDeveloped isn't even licensed or bonded as an escrow (they have a sort of shell game going where they separate their escrow and domain business so that if escrow is sued it will simply claim no assets), and I don't think Epik is either, so at the end of the day, neither is even insured for the unexpected. At least escrow.com is a real escrow, licensed and bonded.

As far as the legal definition is concerned, neither UNDeveloped nor Epik are "proper" escrows they conduct their business by claiming, legally speaking, that they are "not escrows" to avoid having to license or bond.

You pays your money and you takes your choice.

 

[Internet.Domains]

Until the transaction actually closes, everyone has sovereign control over their respective assets.

Epik 1 Escrow.com 0

 

[Ategy]

Well .. if he's accusing you of sending the domain to an account with your email then that is a false accusation of fraud.

What I don't understand is how he would ever even know the password retrieval email for any account that isn't indeed actually his own? (This is a big reason why the buyer really needs to clarify things and owes an explanation to Keith and very likely an apology at the very least)

So .. while the string of events most certainly do point to attempted fraud .. I unfortunately can't rule out a clarity issue on GoDaddy's side leading to confusion from the buyer. It's equally possible the buyer got confused by something that wasn't GoDaddy's fault at all.


@xynames .. Your points about Escrow.com in general are not necessarily wrong .. and you're definitely correct that this thread has been informative and helpful to shine a light on the overall Escrow process .. but in all fairness to @Keith .. for this specific transaction, there is significant vital information the buyer has not addressed. Namely the buyer accusing Keith sending the domain to an account controlled by Keith.

Whether this was done by malice or confusion .. either way Keith is totally justified to have been concerned and upset (because of the unique circumstances such an extreme accusation bring to an incomplete transaction).

If indeed Keith did then contact Escrow multiple times explaining that the buyer was accusing him of sending the domain to the *sellers own* account, then it's totally wrong for Escrow to have told Keith to deal with the buyer ... as I think most would agree that it was fair for Keith to assume that a buyer who accuses the seller of fraudulently sending the domain to the seller's account, is by simple deduction, claiming that he as the buyer does not have full control nor actual ownership of the domain.

Effectively the real question boils down to why would Escrow ask the seller to arrange for the buyer to return the domain when the buyer is claiming he doesn't have full control of the domain? The only thing that could otherwise come into play is if Keith didn't explain the buyer's accusation clearly enough (which I doubt is the case .. but obviously I couldn't say with 100% certainty).

If anything, Escrow should have stepped in to clarify the situation (because of the explicit accusation from the buyer) .. as I'll be the first to say that there's a good possibility that nobody had real fraudulent intent here, and that all this could genuinely be the result of the buyer not having a complete grasp of the GoDaddy platform or of domain transfers in general.

After all the "inspection period" talk throughout this thread .. the issue at play here really is not at all an inspection period issue .. as the inspection period only begins after the buyer receives the domain .. but in this case the buyer is implying to the seller that the buyer hasn't even received the domain yet (and more importantly, that the buyer has not received the domain because of the accused fraudulent action of the seller sending the domain to an account controlled by the seller instead of one controlled by the buyer).

 

[KWNG]

@Jackson Elsegood
Regarding transaction 4532982 for CBDcity.com for $11,500...

The buyer took possession via push at godaddy and immediately requested that escrow cancel the deal. I’ve provided loads of email verification to escrow to show my position. Meanwhile they are asking me to work with the buyer to get the domain back.

I’ll need to be paid or I will take legal action. My suggestion is that escrow do a little homework to verify the account push. I’ve done too much business with you guys for you to put this back on me. The buyer is a scam artist and I won’t play games!

If Keith didn’t have the funds for legal action I wonder what would’ve happened.

 

[forge]

If the transaction has now completed to Keiths satisfaction, that probably wouldn't be appropriate.. It reads to me as the Buyer had a change of mind regarding the initial purchase but, has now accepted/persuaded that it was too late in the transaction to back-out

Yet they are still labeled a "thief" in the thread title. It seems to me such words are used loosely and freely far too often on this forum before the dust settles. Then all of a sudden everything is hunky dory. Just saying.

 

[Keith]

ebook lover you posted over and over that buyer NEVER clicked to accept. It was obvious to me that buyer DID click to accept, also obvious that he did it after this thread was started.

You keep posting the same thing over and over for no reason, all of it wrong.

Nobody is saying the buyer didn’t eventually click accept. It’s what happened prior to that which matters.

If I steal your car today and return it tomorrow, I still stole your car...

 

[Jv1999]

I think you’ll be disappointed if you think things would go any differently at any escrow or escrow like service. If buyer wants to cancel and pushes that desire to cancel at any point before buyer gives consent to release of funds to seller, there’s going to be a fight and the escrow service whether it’s escrow.com or UNDeveloped is not going to take sides. Escrow will remain neutral and freeze funds - meantime Buyer and seller will have to fight it out between them.

You’re naive if you think otherwise.

No. I have received numerous assurances from Undeveloped that after the buyer pays, there is virtually no way the buyer can cancel unless the seller can't deliver the domain... or there's some kind of buyer payment fraud. Undeveloped is loyal to their customers, unlike Escrow.com that literally asked the seller to ask the buyer for the domain back lololol. How does that even happen in an escrow situation... Undeveloped won't even let you talk to the buyer anymore once the transaction has started. They'll only release the buyer's info if the buyer fails to pay and the deal seems crashed.

 

[Domains - Wanted]

I think you’ll be disappointed if you think things would go any differently at any escrow or escrow like service...

Clearly you have no experience with other escrow services. Recommend you try Epik to expand your horizons. Once they receive funds from a buyer, they push the domain to buyer's account. Transaction ended.

If buyer wants to cancel and pushes that desire to cancel at any point before buyer gives consent to release of funds to seller, there’s going to be a fight and the escrow service whether it’s escrow.com or UNDeveloped is not going to take sides. Escrow will remain neutral and freeze funds - meantime Buyer and seller will have to fight it out between them.

I'm with @Jv1999 here: that's a mess, not proper escrow. The time for a buyer to change his/her mind is before initiating an escrow transaction and sending money!

 

[Domains - Wanted]

..."Until the escrow is concluded" sounds to me like..."Until the escrow is concluded." especially when you couple it with the sentence about "if buyer has already submitted payment" it sounds like cancellation may be effected at Epik by either party, even after buyer has already submitted payment... But, you tell me how you read it...

Here's how I read it:

1) I transfer the domain to Epik...

2) I initiate the so-called escrow transaction...

3) Buyer pays money to Epik...

4) Here's where things get interesting... Immediately thereafter (within minutes), Epik pushes the domain to buyer's account...

5) Immediately thereafter (within minutes), Epik credits money to my account... transaction concluded

I agree: Epik has a lot of useless, cover their ass, terms in their TOS; a lot of it goes in the face of what Rob advertises, but legal counsel must have insisted... but it's useless, as in impractical, as there's simply no time for the buyer to excercise such an option

...As far as the legal definition is concerned, neither UNDeveloped nor Epik are "proper" escrows they conduct their business by claiming, legally speaking, that they are "not escrows" to avoid having to license or bond.

You pays your money and you takes your choice.

Yep. All true. And that's what I'm doing: going with the safer, pretty much surefire option, instead of Escrow.com, which runs for the hills, taking their licence and bond with them, leaving you hanging at the first sign of trouble!

 

[Domains - Wanted]

...A public thread that says “Escrow.com is protecting a thief” is inconveniencing every person that sells domains through them I think you mean...

I think you should contact @Jackson Elsegood and take this up with him. Nice of him to intervene and get this particular case resolved. Which doesn't change the fact that Escrow.com's TOS, procedures and their customer support leave much to be desired. And that's on @Jackson Elsegood, not @Keith.

I think that when threads like these are solved quickly, NamePros should close the thread so that it doesn’t show up in search engines...

I couldn't disagree more. Change the thread title to something less inflamatory - yes! Sweep an Escrow.com issue (that's likely to be repeated) under the carpet - NO WAY!

Full disclosure: I don't have a hard-on against Escrow.com. I have not had any bad experience with them personally. Repeating threads with horror stories about Escrow.com staff incompetence and disregard for their paying customers' interests made me stay away. So, no hard feelings on my part. However, I am strongly against sweeping this under the carpet. Simply because once you start on that road, it's hard to know where to draw the line!

 

[Keith]

When I buy a domain I always tell the buyer my high net worth and how deep pockets I have too.

When a company buys a domain from me they always reveal exactly who they are yes always.

Assume what you want but the reality is that you’re clueless when it comes to the specifics of this deal. I even said on the first page of this thread that I didn’t give all the details.

 

[mr-x]

The buyer took possession of the domain and immediately tried to cancel at escrow. That is not good faith!

Attempted fraud, theft.

3 different agents at escrow asked me to work with the buyer to get the domain returned. That is not my job. I followed escrow instructions and pushed when prompted. The next step is to receive funds and nothing more.

Lazy employees don't want to accept any risk / blame.

The buyer also claimed that I hacked his account after pushing which is absurd. It wasn’t until this thread was created that escrow started to move quickly. I sent upwards of 10 emails to the buyer and support that showed the successful domain push.

Yes, the buyer accepted. It took numerous threats and lots of follow up communication from me/escrow to make that happen. Honest people don’t operate that way in business, or life for that matter!

Without a platform like namepros.com, you'd probably have to hire a lawyer to get your money from escrow.com

Also, they took the scammers side by asking me to get the domain back. That’s not my job. It’s escrows job to do their homework and disburse funds at this stage of a deal.

And you're still considering using their "concierge" service. Concierge, == paying so support won't abandon you.

 

[uzver]

Escrow.com additionally allows cancellation after receipt of the domain. Of course.

In this case Escrow.com should hold the money and ask the buyer to push the domain back, no?

 

[Mister Funsky]

The identity of the buyer and seller are known only to Epik and the transaction is legally enforceable upon both buyer and seller as they are both direct clients of Epik in this transaction.

Bingo! This is why I love the Epik marketplace. Only one transaction do I know who the owner/buyer is/was as he/she was so excited to get the name he/she sought me out and told me how much he/she loved the name. It is awesome to open my email and see a notice saying "your domain was sold". Just for fun I shoot over to my Epik account to see the funds there. Then my addiction kicks in and I buy more and more and more domains...okay, time for a meeting.

btw, congratulations Keith on the sale!

 

[Keith]

Its unfortunate that Keith had to go through this. I’ve learnt heaps from this thread. I will never push a domain ever again.

Now imagine if the buyer requested a transfer to another registrar. There is no way to undo that. I’m realizing how flawed the process at escrow is.

That said, there are ways to take precaution and one is concierge. Yes it’s expensive but I’d put that cost on the buyer...

 

[Jv1999]

Now imagine if the buyer requested a transfer to another registrar. There is no way to undo that. I’m realizing how flawed the process at escrow is.

That said, there are ways to take precaution and one is concierge. Yes it’s expensive but I’d put that cost on the buyer...

Tbh, I'm a bit rusty with contracts law. But it seems like xynames is right. If he quoted their tos right, escrow.cok allows for buyer to return the domain during t the inspection period.

But then there are contracts where someone is selling a house or something, and the courts would enforce a sales agreement despite the buyer not wanting to go through with the deal (even if they didn't pay yet) -- as long as there's an offer, acceptance, and consideration.

So on one hand, there's escrow.cock's random "return policy" that the seller might never had in place when they made a contract with the buyer (e.g, no returns)

I mean, you have the buyer already having paid. And the seller already having sent the domain... And there's no foul play on either side. I mean, that's legit already a done transaction. For escrow.coj to hold the money and undo the transaction that's significantly completed in the eyes of the law... it's just ridiculous.

Anyway, it's probably better if you had let the buyer transfer out. Because that way it's harder for buyer to return the domain, and you can make an excuse that the registrar is a dangerous one and they have fkd u in the past. So no you will not create an acct there. Then they'd be forced to give you your money because buyer can't return the domain within 10 days

I'M JUST GLAD UNDEVELOPED DOESN'T HAVE THIS RETURN POLICY. THEY GIVE YOU THE MONEY EVEN WHILE THE DOMAIN IS IN THEIR ESCROW ACCOUNT AND NOT THE BUYER'S ACCOUNT YET.

 

[Domains - Wanted]

...Concierge is a high margin product, and after this I am sure Keith will probably use it, and so will many others, but it kind of defeats the purpose of escrow, but what choice does one have, it’s not worth the frustration of above.

I suspect this might be the whole point of this sorry excercise: "motivating" people to use their concierge service. Risky business strategy, especially with Epik's very competitive offer, IMO... but what the heck do I know...

Seriously now: this thread has been a real eye opener for me. Seeing how Escrow.com muddles through this, it's beginning to look like a viable business opportunity... been thinking what to do with my DrEscrow.com...

 

[Keith]

So, you didn't CANCEL transaction at Escrow after you accept domain?

I just looked at the times on the emails.

At 3:40 pm godaddy sent confirmation that the account change was complete. At 3:51 I emailed the buyer and asked him to please accept at escrow. I got no response. At 4:13 pm, 33 minutes later, escrow sent an email saying the buyer requested to cancel the transaction.

 

[Jackson Elsegood]

If Keith didn’t have the funds for legal action I wonder what would’ve happened.

Verifying the delivery of a domain is part of every transaction, through the buyer's acceptance or with the receiving registrar.

 

[dmyre]

I spoke to Jackson via phone and I’m certain we’ll get it resolved. Should know more tomorrow!

I hope so. I have used Escrow.com several times since 2004, and have never had an issue. This is alarming to see. Please keep us posted on the outcome.