.tv Premium Renewal Kills another sale...

[TLDnetworks]

For the second time the $500 premium renewal has killed the sale of one of my names... In both instances the buyers balked, refused, and commented on the stupidity. As EQ knows, I am VERY ANTI premium renewal, this this does nothing but fuel the fire... 8-X

I've got no problem with "Premium Registration", but have said from day one that keeping the renewals at a premium level sucks and could hold the name space back. :td:

 

[domainacrobat]

I have to agree with Finster on this. A similar conversation came up in another thread and they posted a statement that looked like this:

Typical conversation with domainer: "Isn't that the one with iffy pricing?"

I replied:

Personally, I have never had this conversation from any serious buyer. Any serious buyer either knows about the renewals and asks up front about it, or they have so much money its really not an issue. I think this is the funniest thing that folks are still worked up about mass acceptance due to the "iffy pricing". It is a non issue IMO.

IMO any serious buyer does not care or already knows. If a $500 renewal killed a sale then it was not meant to be and the buyer was not serious. End of story. I do not think premium renewals are bad at all.

Then in another thread I addressed the business.tv $500,000 renewal, first I posted this:

WOW. Just saw Business.com sold for $350 million!!! It makes Business.TV look cheap for $500,000!!! You could register it for 700 years!

I am well aware of the transaction and what is involved. I know its not purely a domain sale. It is hard to tell where Business.com and their actual business weighs in on the $350 mil. From what I read they had good revenue every year as a business. But I have to say when you actually visit the site it is disapointing to say the least. An over glorified directory. Hardly an enduser use. The domain is what makes it work. Their business model is not unique in any way. They do have a PPC program but in comparison to the likes of google and yahoo its nothing. To me that makes the domain more valuable than thier business model.

I have a theoretical scenario:

- Someone buys business.tv has the money and regs it for 10 years; 5$ million.

- Then they spend $20 million actually developing and updating the site over 10 years, not just a directory.

- Now they start advertising it over the course of 10 years spending 5 million on advertising every year; $50 million.


- Now you have a branded functional site that generates its own income and return visits from a steady user base. All for only $75 million. Still a great bargain in comparison to business.com


IMO the premium renewal is only in place for one reason and one reason only, to protect the livelyhood of Tuvalu from being taken advantage of @ $25 a year for a great brand like Business.TV. Not to help domainers out. IMO .TV is different from any other game out there and you have to play it accordingly. You can't expect it to play out just as every other domain sale does. When I bought $1050 of premiums I realized I may have to drop or renew depending on the name if they don't sell.

While I am sorry for your sale that fell through, I do not believe it was meant to be anyway.

best of luck.

 

[HBK216]

I have to disagree with the "serious buyer" mentality on this one. What exactly qualifies to most as a "serious buyer"? Does such an individual need to possess tons of cash to where renewal prices don't matter?

How about looking at the fact that such pricing can be seen as an extra road block to a business. Some random person out there has a great development idea & wants to buy a .tv for it. He/she realizes the name they want is considered premium & costs extra.

They have the money for it & are willing to get it. However they realize that the renewals will stick at this same price every year. They back out as it might be a difficult expense as they grow their idea into a possible money maker. Are they not a serious buyer? I wouldn't necessarily think that. I could see how such a scenario plays out more often than one might expect.

The premium pricing structure really needs to be looked into. This is holding the extension back regardless of the few it benefits.

 

[domainacrobat]

I have to disagree with the "serious buyer" mentality on this one. What exactly qualifies to most as a "serious buyer"? Does such an individual need to possess tons of cash to where renewal prices don't matter?

How about looking at the fact that such pricing can be seen as an extra road block to a business. Some random person out there has a great development idea & wants to buy a .tv for it. He/she realizes the name they want is considered premium & costs extra.

They have the money for it & are willing to get it. However they realize that the renewals will stick at this same price every year. They back out as it might be a difficult expense as they grow their idea into a possible money maker. Are they not a serious buyer? I wouldn't necessarily think that. I could see how such a scenario plays out more often than one might expect.

The premium pricing structure really needs to be looked into. This is holding the extension back regardless of the few it benefits.

A serious buyer does not need to be rich, but a serious buyer does take everyting into account. The renewal fee being one of them. If the name is so vital to their business plan, yet they can't afford the name then they are not a serious buyer as they arent willing to invest in their own company. If they can't afford the .TV renewal fees then they can't afford the .com version anyway. :imho:

Time to pick another name.

 

[johntv]

If they can't afford the .TV renewal fees then they can't afford the .com version anyway.

That's a good one

 

[TheBulldog]

I believe I had read that Demand does not consider tv to be a domainers tld. Instead they fully see it as a developers domain name.

At this point, unless they redo how the premium is done, which I doubt, then we just need to suck it up for now. We have bitched and moaned about it enough, it isn't going to change anytime soon just because we here in this forum complain. It will only be changed a couple years down the road if Demand/ENOM/Verisign deem it to be a failure. And as long as people keep registering premiums, why would they consider it a failure?

That being said, I do think it is stupid, but I am also a realist and a business man and you don't give up your business plan in six months if your product is selling. Any business will bleed money for 3-5 years before giving up unless they have no other source of capital. In this case, Rosenblatt has plenty of sources at his fingers and he can afford to wait this out to see how it plays.

Look at it this way; for domainers it is a huge monetary drain in renewal fees. For Demand, it is a strategy that they are prepared to give a couple of years to to see how it plays out. It is also a cash cow because it is very likely that even though there will be people that let premium names expire, there is always someone behind them that will gladly pay that fee.

 

[domainacrobat]

I believe I had read that Demand does not consider tv to be a domainers tld. Instead they fully see it as a developers domain name.

At this point, unless they redo how the premium is done, which I doubt, then we just need to suck it up for now. We have bitched and moaned about it enough, it isn't going to change anytime soon just because we here in this forum complain. It will only be changed a couple years down the road if Demand/ENOM/Verisign deem it to be a failure. And as long as people keep registering premiums, why would they consider it a failure?

That being said, I do think it is stupid, but I am also a realist and a business man and you don't give up your business plan in six months if your product is selling. Any business will bleed money for 3-5 years before giving up unless they have no other source of capital. In this case, Rosenblatt has plenty of sources at his fingers and he can afford to wait this out to see how it plays.

Look at it this way; for domainers it is a huge monetary drain in renewal fees. For Demand, it is a strategy that they are prepared to give a couple of years to to see how it plays out. It is also a cash cow because it is very likely that even though there will be people that let premium names expire, there is always someone behind them that will gladly pay that fee.

As I know it, premium renewal fees are in place in cooperation with Tuvalu. Originally they were highly exploited by a few investors. The premium renewal fees are in place to ensure a certain level of income for their small country. If I am wrong someone please correct me. The whole "its a developers extension" was just a positive advertising spin that was put on the premium pricing structure to make it look more attracive.

 

[HBK216]

A serious buyer does not need to be rich, but a serious buyer does take everyting into account. The renewal fee being one of them. If the name is so vital to their business plan, yet they can't afford the name then they are not a serious buyer as they arent willing to invest in their own company. If they can't afford the .TV renewal fees then they can't afford the .com version anyway. :imho:

Time to pick another name.

No offense but I think this is b.s. There are many more factors one has to consider besides dealing with a gouged premium renewal. Many are just important if not more so than the renewal itself. This has noting to do with not wanting to invest in their company, it is the reality of running a legitimate business.

 

[StargateCapital]

IMO - premium pricing is killing and will continue to kill the extension. It is nothing more than greed from the registry. They don't care about growth, they just want as much money per name that they can get out of people. .Com seems to operate just fine once prices were dropped to reasonable levels (they used to be like $100 back in the day). There is no doubt that it inhibits its growth. .TV will never be anything next to .com if continues to be run the way it is today by the Demand Media/Verisign clowns. Serious changes are needed in registration contracts, management, pricing issues and overall acceptance by the general public (type-ins). Premium pricing has also killed a recent sale for me as well from very well funded pockets and it was a really low renewal fee! .TV is a tool I use for other purposes. I love the extension and I know it has potential, but the way it is being run is severly damaging its future through multiple avenues and one of them is Premium Pricing.

CCD

 

[domainacrobat]

No offense but I think this is b.s. There are many more factors one has to consider besides dealing with a gouged premium renewal. Many are just important if not more so than the renewal itself. This has noting to do with not wanting to invest in their company, it is the reality of running a legitimate business.

First off, there are other ways to say that you disagree with someone elses point of view. You need to realize just because you say no offense- you don't get a free pass from retribution.

Yes there are many other factors in business, of course many other things in your business are going to be more important, we are discussing the premium pricing and buyers.

You said: This has noting to do with not wanting to invest in their company, it is the reality of running a legitimate business.

I say: If you want to start a successful online business, you have to invest in a great name. I thought that is why we are all selling domains? If someone does not want to invest in a good domain, in their company's name, I hardly consider them a serious buyer. :imho:

You are welcome to your opinion, but I dissagree.

 

[HBK216]

First off, there are other ways to say that you disagree with someone elses point of view. You need to realize just because you say no offense- you don't get a free pass from retribution.

Yes there are many other factors in business, of course many other things in your business are going to be more important, we are discussing the premium pricing and buyers.

You said: This has noting to do with not wanting to invest in their company, it is the reality of running a legitimate business.

I say: If you want to start a successful online business, you have to invest in a great name. I thought that is why we are all selling domains? If someone does not want to invest in a good domain, in their company's name, I hardly consider them a serious buyer. :imho:

You are welcome to your opinion, but I dissagree.

I honestly could care less about retribution. I'm just speaking my mind freely.

I would think people sell domains to make cash, not because someone needs a great name.

So price gouging is supposed to be a good thing for the sake of someone qualifying as a serious buyer? The extension is still young, does not have that many major players backing it, & this is supposed to be why certain names are 6 figures?

The names are collecting dust because so called serious buyers are questioning the legitimacy of such pricing. Some might even feel that having the .com is enough. In theory, what can you do on a .tv that can't be done on a just as good .com? If anything someone with a lesser .com might be the actual prime candidate for the premium .tv

Unfortunately odds say that most likely such a candidate is or can't spend six figures a year to keep such a name. With so many other costs involved, it is not that smart of an investment to many.

With such a structure setup, it takes away from every .tv owner in my opinion. Names such as business, news, etc... should have been gone ages ago & developed for the masses. I'm talking real development that would get the overall marketplace & recognition heading forward.

The more such types of names sit on the shelf, the more weaker the extension looks as a whole to the masses. One can argue that this will also show how many feel about the sham that is premium pricing.

 

[equity78]

WOW what a thread although this has all been discussed for over two years.

Lets go with facts

When you talk about PRemium Pricing stop mentioning Demand Media, Verisign sets the premium now demand media can mark up like they tried to rip off LOCAL EXPERTS by raising the price of Dallas.tv to $30,000 from the $9500 where it was all of 2006 on www.tv.

LLL.tv premium pricing is $500 some may get marke dup to $1000, $2000

Next fact premium pricing is not going away Verisign paid $45 Million for the DOT TV CORP in 2002 and yes TUvalu had equity in the deal they owned a piece when Idea Lab sold to the very company Bill Gross always intended to sell to Verisign.

The developers line Marlowe was not pr it was someone in management at Verisign saying to me " We really don't care what so called domainers think .tv is not a domainers extension it is a development extension. If we catered to you domainers all lll.tv would be regged and parked"

There is a difference between Premium pricing and premium renewals. I agree with Johntv 100 % on Premium Pricing if .tv were $15 in 2000, Then guess what ?

Virtuali is not regging Beer.tv in 2006
Millers is not regging Education.tv in 2006
Westblock the name in question which was my recomendation B**mers.tv would not have been available in 2007

Guess what ?
Searchingtv not regging Norway.tv in 2006
LocalExperts not regging any of the Geo.tv he regged
Antonis12 certainly not getting Paris.tv in 2006
I would have never regged LCD for $30 in 2005 or SIX.tv in 2005

THe cloudy and screwed up management at Verisign allowed those who cut through the fog to find a niche and to buy quality domains. It allowed those who were apart of the extension known as .tv sucks to make sales. I never sold a .com for $25,000 but I did sell a .tv that at TRAFFIC SIX.com turned down $1million. SO when people pay millions or are quoted Millions are they being gouged ?

It is simple Verisign owns the .tv corp no one here does unless you own stock in Verisign then you do have some indirect ownership. I am no fan of Verisign have spoken out where I think they hurting the extension. Business.tv is premium 1L6.tv is not.

And the thing personally I have never believed is if no develpment in the extension then you will never sell a domain. Trust me get out of .tv now then because many premium domains
xxx.tv , kids.tv, sexy.tv most L.tv plenty of LL and LLL and many more are owned by IGAL/MrsJello and Elequa and they will not be developing their domains so if that a negative then everyone should understand that.

Talking about premium fees is really just mental masturbation IMO a lot of heat but no payoff. Verisign bought DOT TV for PREMIUM PRICING they were not looking to help domainers find another extension to flip.

Pricing goes both ways if they should not make that much why should you ? I mean you cannot want price caps in one part and then free market decide in another stance. I mean should there be a limit of wha Westblock could make on B*****.tv should he give these buyers a very fair price according to their definition I mean defining fair is interesting because it is relative to the person. I think domainers have to be careful saying how much a business should make because that can go both ways when you are the one whose profit is being capped.

I always believed what was great about .tv was it let people who missed the .com train great names at cheap prices to have a second chance. No not as cheap as $7 but a lot of domains have been bought here for $25 that are great domains that were regged in .com in 99/02 at the latest. Premiums also gave those new a chance to acquire grreat domains and when I speak of Premiums imo I would never pay more than $1000. I can find the value in $500 keywords and LL.tv and LLL.tv


Another thing unregged .tv are not laying around collecting dust Verisign parks them think about this way Verisign gave me a price of $500 a year to reg SIX.tv it made $2500 to $3000 a year so Verisign lost money they could have just kept it parked and made more money.

Lastly Verisign is a for profit company like everyone here if not a company you are still for profit, they are not trying to spread .tv goodwill they are trying to make a profit just like you and me and everyone in this domain business.


IMO

 

[deb]

well said Eq :gl:

 

[HBK216]

I am fine with them not wanting it to be a domainers extension. I'm not a fan of parking to begin with. This doesn't justify the idiotic way their pricing structure is setup.

I'm not saying .tv should be $15 or something, I just think the setup involving their pricing from initial purchase to renewal leaves a lot to be desired. What would or would not have been available really doesn't have to do with this imo.

As far as LLL's & the like being parked, I'm not even thinking about those. I know LLL's are big in the industry. I expect most to be parked as most are looking for that buyer o come along for the acronym. I never expect most of those names to be developed anyway.

I can see your point about the premiums priced in the range you mentioned. My argument is based more on the really highly priced ones from almost to & above 6 figures. This is where I think the structure hurts because these names just sit & collect dust.

I know they make money via parking but how does that help the development of this extension? It only helps put cash in their pockets. I'm all for one wanting to make a profit, I just think they could go about it better for their benefit & fellow .tv owners who are trying to build this extension.

"Talking about premium fees is really just mental masturbation IMO a lot of heat but no payoff."

Your above comment made me laugh a lot. good one

 

[equity78]

HBK I think anything over$1000 is a joke I agree no Premium should be over $1000. I have spoken to Verisign and said lets have $1,000,000 day any premium $1000 $50 renewal I believe a minimum of 1000 domains would be regged the first day. I have never thought a $10,000 premium was right let alone $100,000

To your point about what would be available or not does not matter it does to those who registered them 100 % percent

 

[HBK216]

HBK I think anything over$1000 is a joke I agree no Premium should be over $1000. I have spoken to Verisign and said lets have $1,000,000 day any premium $1000 $50 renewal I believe a minimum of 1000 domains would be regged the first day. I have never thought a $10,000 premium was right let alone $100,000

To your point about what would be available or not does not matter it does to those who registered them 100 % percent

I am sure it does matter to them. I didn't mean any disrespect towards the examples or people mentioned.

I wouldn't be a fan of a $10,000 renewal although it is much more respectable for a name like Business or News .tv compared to their prices now. I wonder if those names will get registered within the next year.

 

[equity78]

Well those fees are a joke IMO I think they hope to get lucky maybe Demand Media will bring someone in but not at $500,000. Look Verisign brought Demand Media in to run the retail and marketing because it is so little to Verisign.

Think about it Verisign offices in Virginia had .tv ran out of Scott Higgasons house in LA I was once told to get a link to the .tv subforum on www.tv it would take a year. You think they care about .tv ? there is the real problem, sell .tv to Moniker and let Monte run it, that would be my pick

 

[SKG]

When popularity and traffic catch up to the extension then premium renewal will no longer become an issue because massive type in traffic equates to revenue by many standards. Would anyone have a problem paying 50K a year to own sex.com today? If you are not developing then you need to do the math on a premium. If you expect .tv to only increase in traffic and exposure in the future lets throw out ten years from now the a 1k domain is a 10K investment. To own a a high overture keyword domain then ten years out for the cost of 10K then is a steal right? EQ is correct that to own Beer.tv, Six.tv and others that members own would no way be possible any other way than the current model unless you have the deepest of pockets. If these names were reg fee type they would have been gone day one by Goliath investors and the like. Just my humble opinion.

 

[deb]

i know of people that had many premium renewals reduced some from 10k to 2500yr 8000k to 1000yr etc "in the good old days" verisign was pretty good to people. we USED to buy "premiums" as an investment. we dont buy .TV any more since the takeover. but have a nice .TV stable to sit/sleep on for 5-10years :zzz:

 

[Kate]

I agree completely with JohnTV. A serious end-user will not think twice about a $500 renewal, though a reseller probably will...

I can understand that some people don't like differential pricing as a matter of principle.
Businesses don't like the uncertainty... today it's $500 but Enom could decide to raise the prices and make them unaffordable.
Besides, any .com has a standard renewal fee of less than $10 (depending on which registrar you use). Clearly .tv is not in the same league so they should be more reasonable on pricing imo... :gl:

 

[deb]

enom.tv is in it for themselves.

are we aware of the rules and risks?

it sounds like most of us have a pretty good idea of what the playingfield looks like and the risks involved. Quinn has been great at explaining things.(better than many many other companies that just stick thier head in the sand) it would be great if they could gaurantee premiums wont go up,but if i was there legal counsel i would never let them use "gaurantee" in the contract either.

its not perfect but i am willing to take the risk that things will be OK :tu: