.mobi .mobi dead or .mobi on NP dead ?

[tony_np]

I visited here every day.But seems no more news here.

.mobi dead or .mobi on NP dead ?

 

[snoop]

You are wrong, look at post# 183

But we can all agree with you if you want.
See you in the future
:wave:

What does post 183 have to do with what I just said? (a list of several companies using .mobi).

 

[acc]

Guess what, some of the companies you quoted have .jobs domains too. Actually there are quite a few large companies that own their .jobs.
That doesn't make .jobs a well-known, high-profile extension.

I would be willing to accept your points, but in the end it all boils down to critical mass. Until it is embraced on a large scale by end users, it will remain a fringe extension.

It's not just a question of time. Extensions like .biz have been around for years and they are as worthless as they were at birth. Ditto for the obscure ccTLDs with no local market.

Kate - Points taken but I'm very curious though why you do you apply the same microscope and doubt to .us as to .mobi. RE: it is nice to see your recent purchase of a real world term LLL.US.

I like .US too and see its struggles in the domainer world and get bashed by much of the CNO crowd. But as Ron at DNJournal pointed out in his piece today about .US is being adopted by small businesses. Acceptance and adoption of new extensions takes time.

Dot us is 7+ years old with about 1.4M regs.
Dot mobi is 3 yrs old with 0.8M regs.
Dot us registry marketing is MIA in a BIG way since 2002.
Dot mobi registry is very active building development tools for mobile web to supplement/support .mobi extension.

Lots of room for growth for both extensions IMHO.
.

 

[mo_dork]

What does post 183 have to do with what I just said? (a list of several companies using .mobi).

They are using .mobi, and not using .net or .org.

Maybe in the past companies picked a longer domain (not sure if thats correct) as you say. I don't see this as a good branding strategy. If the web is mobile and I need a new domain to sell tortoises. Do I go for Buymytortoises.net of tortoises.mobi (probably cost the same currently)
... I just checked its available!

I figure in the era of the mobile web the generic mobi will get more type-ins. It also requires less marketing budget. I am sure you will say that given the choice (from your phone) you would visit the .net site.
I personally would go for the mobi site. because-
1. its for sure mobile
2. its new and interesting

 

[acc]

Claiming you are a developer has got a heck of alot more common (especially in failing extensions) because it is plain to see that their is pretty much no money in alot of areas of domaining right now.

Most of us are sitting on names waiting for buyers and in domainer language "development" usually means setting up some garbage quality template site, adding some content on a topic you known nothing about (you only set up the site because you own the domain, right?), and sticking alot of adsense ads on it. Outside of the domain industry very few would see that as development.

So all of these blogs writing about CNO-only preference "domainers" now moving from parking to developing their minisites are working on Failing Extensions too?

Who the hell CARES what you or me or any others refer to as "domaining". But as I'm sure you really like to hear other's opinions .... Domaining to me is when one buys/sells/uses multiple domain names for whatever purpose they choose aside for showcasing or marketing their MAIN business.

I would rather invest in Beenie Babies.

There's a rational statement. :lol:

Most of the exceptional names are held by mTLD. I see that as a problem for the extension don't you? Even what's released at sunrise how many have $xx,xxx value? I personally don't see any $xx,xxx mobi sales happening anytime soon.

Many nice .mobi generics in private hands. Some nice developments in progress. Not as much as most people would like to see but a step in the right direction.

Many of the best .com names are in PARKED hands. (Probably as to not disappoint snoop who would then have to call them "not domainers".) Is that a problem for the extension?

Well it's not as bad as 3-4 months ago but it's still losing numbers. Click the link I posted.

Wrong again - See jmcc's posts - he has a better handle on the numbers and .mobi has stabilized and is climbing again.

Mobi fans continue to herald the coming of every major corp using mobi but I see little to indicate corps are willing to pay serious money to acquire mobi domains.

Probably because you don't have any nice ones to sell.

Are mobi domainers unaware they are INVESTING into mobi to make money or are they simply happy to "collect" mobi names for some cool factor amongst their friends? Next thing you know Mobi is going to make collector cards for it's fan base. Domaining is about investing in domains to turn a profit. If you develop sites to make money...I got news for you. You're out of the domainer category for the most part.

So now "expert" domainers dictate HOW LONG .mobi names should be held. And if we develop any of them then we have to leave the "domainer" clubhouse?
Jesse - You have often touted how you develop and live off of revenues from websites you've built. Does that mean that you are not a domainer now - and just playing one on TV? Does the admin here at NP know you faked your application for Modship at this "domaining-only" forum.

If you believe that then hold your domains. I don't believe it for one second. Neither do many others. And most bad investments take time to realize it too. There really isn't a big point here from you. It's another comparison of mobi to com which borders on the absurd.

So we should collectively cancel all plans for our generic mobis and run off to buy CNOs because many of you "experts" don't like .mobi or can't understand time frames past flipping or parking CNOs?

Yup...mobi hasn't reinvented the wheel here. It's just made a twist on it. For the most part mTLD is just another extension like info, biz, or name. I would much rather own some good biz domains right now.

You know better than that. .mobi has and is a different animal. Built in marketing for a mobile market.
If it makes you happy then then fill up your .biz (domaining) tank. (And don't dare develop or hold onto any beyond the alloted timeframe.)

Psst...just sold a LLL.biz today for $600.

Psst ... sold a couple LLL.mobis to end users on Sedo for $5,xxx. Not today but within last 12 months. Can I now join the "real domainer" club even though I still hold other .mobi names? I rarely mention my sales publicly but these were reported and it just gets ridiculous to see the nonsense bashing of .mobi by those who don't hold any/many without replying. If one can't experience something first hand then they can't REALLY know what they are talking about.

Show me the number of $x,xxx .biz sales vs number of $x,xxx mobi sales over that last 1-2 years. AND also factor in that .biz has had years of a head start.

But all those comparisons are going to be moot IMHO as .mobi will surpass .biz in adoption and use going forward. Just mentioning now as you brought up .biz. Not my standard to reach, just one mile marker to pass along the ride. Mobile will be HUGE. Dot mobi will go along for the ride.

 

[snoop]

So all of these blogs writing about CNO-only preference "domainers" now moving from parking to developing their minisites are working on Failing Extensions too?

No, I don't see any signs that com/net/org is failing.

I think the reason for that move is because their domains were probably never traffic domains in the first place, or at least very marginal. I do think the /com/net/org people moving to minisites from parking are mainly making the same mistake though. Parking doesn't work for them so they move to another idea that really doesn't work well either. Development is something that works, but not over dozens or hundreds of domains, it doesn't scale.

Who the hell CARES what you or me or any others refer to as "domaining". But as I'm sure you really like to hear other's opinions .... Domaining to me is when one buys/sells/uses multiple domain names for whatever purpose they choose aside for showcasing or marketing their MAIN business.

The point is that "domaining" and "webmastering" are entirely different skillsets.

As has already been said many .mobi speculators are now banking on development, that is because the reason why they registered those domains in the first place has not worked out, they can't resell for a profit and there is no traffic. I'm fairly sure what the next thing to not work out will be....it starts with a "d".

 

[mo_dork]

As has already been said many .mobi speculators are now banking on development, that is because the reason why they registered those domains in the first place has not worked out, they can't resell for a profit and there is no traffic. I'm fairly sure what the next thing to not work out will be....it starts with a "d".

They can't resell, not because the whole TLD sucks but because they can't wait long enough for payback.

 

[acc]

No, I don't see any signs that com/net/org is failing.
I think the reason for that move is because their domains were probably never traffic domains in the first place, or at least very marginal. I do think the /com/net/org people moving to minisites from parking are mainly making the same mistake though. Parking doesn't work for them so they move to another idea that really doesn't work well either. Development is something that works, but not over dozens or hundreds of domains, it doesn't scale.

Sorry, I was being facetious. Of course com/net/org are not "failing extensions". When people and businesses decide to actually use a domain name in ANY extension and it continues to build over time it is a success. If the registry stays in business and makes money it is a successful business.

Only "domainers" lording over movements in this niche industry get to proclaim what domain extensions are not living up to some nebulous standard.

I'm sure that the "experts" and those who hang on their every word are not pleased with the unfortunate losses many "domainers" have taken (IF they sold) or that they are experiencing on the millions of dollars worth of .com domains that they bought from 2006-2008. Bought based on 5-8 years of PPC stats, etc. You know, the way all the "experts" valued domains.

Who said that .mobi domains would be high traffic domains ASAP. Can't you see and admit that the buildout of the mobile web is JUST starting. Somehow that small fact can not be grasped by those who continue to proclaim that .mobi is finished. What a bunch of uninformed hooey.

All I hear you say is what doesn't work ... PPC parking not working, minisites won't work, etc. What is the snoop's real life prescription for those domainers who hold dozens or hundreds of domains ... com/net/org/mobi/etc? Are you holding out with a secret formula that we should all know about?

The point is that "domaining" and "webmastering" are entirely different skillsets.
As has already been said many .mobi speculators are now banking on development, that is because the reason why they registered those domains in the first place has not worked out, they can't resell for a profit and there is no traffic. I'm fairly sure what the next thing to not work out will be....it starts with a "d".

So no-one is capable of handling both "domaining" and "webmastering"? No person, no partnership, no company?

How could you or anyone else possibly know what my or other .mobi investors' or speculators' plans are for profiting from our .mobi name holdings, short-term, mid-term or long-term?

How could you somehow know and state for a fact that we can't sell at a profit .... now, next month, next year, ever ... none of our names, some of our names? Is there an official time limit that "true domaining" domainers should sell names by? Within one month, within one year, within five years? Should time limit that pertain to all of our names, some of our names, some extensions, all extensions?


Finally, many people of all levels of experience have in the past and in all likelihood will continue to in the future register subpar and downright awful domain names in EVERY extension. In new extensions and in old established extensions. Just look at the JUNK that gets dropped every day in ALL extensions.

Far more money will be lost and wasted by domainers dropping com/net/org names in a month or two than on .mobi names in a whole year. Now that the natural initial junk dump phase is completed .mobi will grow more organically and eventually mimic the movement of com/net/org.

.

 

[labrocca]

I am not exactly sure of what the strict interpretation of 'domaining' is, its probably quite vague, I would say it is something like- making financial benefit from domain names.

I'll give you an simple easy definition.

Domainer - A person that invests in the domain market.
Domaining - Using domains as a product to buy, sell, and trade.

Domaining isn't about development but some domainers do develop. Domaining is about the market of domains. It's about buying, trading, or selling them. If I buy 5 domains, develop them, and run websites I am not a domainer. I am a web developer. If I buy, sell or trade domains on a regular basis and use these domains to make money I am a domainer.

I think you will find with many mobi investors, especially the ones with solid generics, there is the realization that due to the quality of names owned, there is a genuine opportunity to develop a substantial business.

That's a realization that the domains alone aren't worth much. It's not an opportunity to develop it's more of a neccessity. In domaining your choices are clear.
1. Sit, wait, and pay renewals
2. Park
3. Develop

Since option 1 has no income for most domainers it's not an option. I have seen some use this to protect names from being reverse hijacked though so no one can claim bad-faith use. Option 2 is the widely used option of domainers. It's fast, simple, easy, and can create strong income. Option 3 is used by a few domainers but normally it's when option 2 has failed. It's a rare domainer like Latona that also creates a 4th option like actively pursuing an end-user sale. However I believe Latona does park his domains till sold (haven't confirmed).

If you look at the subcategories on this site, you will see development, monetization and marketing related topics, hence we on this forum have differing motivations.

I am fully aware of these sections. They aren't very good here and make up only a small percentage of the activity at NP.

Most of us are sitting on names waiting for buyers and in domainer language "development" usually means setting up some garbage quality template site, adding some content on a topic you known nothing about (you only set up the site because you own the domain, right?), and sticking alot of adsense ads on it. Outside of the domain industry very few would see that as development.

Snoop is spot on. For most that's exactly how they view development. I consider myself more of a developer as I have been building sites since 1996. I have sold sites in the $xx,xxx range and right now enjoy a top 20k alexa site that is growing at a rapid pace. There is a difference between domainer development and developer development.

I would be willing to accept your points, but in the end it all boils down to critical mass. Until it is embraced on a large scale by end users, it will remain a fringe extension.

I am afraid at this point with ICANN expected to allow a flood of new extensions that any critical mass that could have been reached is now a lost opportunity. ICANN imho has assured the death of all non-CNO or ccTLD extensions. They will ultimately all be fringe extensions for domainers. Developers are going to be very happy though with the large selection. It's going to kill the market for a lot of domainers that have huge portfolios of non CNO imho.

I say .mobi has an additional complexity in that it relates to a medium that mostly does not exist as yet.

That additional complexity you speak of is part of why it's not a good investment for a domainer. Realize I said DOMAINER...not developer. A developer may be very happy to grab a mobi. But one...I don't believe they will pay a premium and two...they are just as likely to use another extension for their mobile site. A vast portion of mobile compliant sites are not mobi.

But then some people are using the current price and usage as if this is its already a done deal.

And some are using a fantasy future full of what-if's and hope-it-happens scenarios. I prefer to not only look ahead but look behind and where it's at now. It's not a pretty picture overall. You can also see the opinion of very seasoned domainers all over the web that feel mobi is not a strong investment and some are vocal enough to outright call it a bad investment.

Its definitely not a question of time. There has to be a need.

A need? A need for what? Mobile compliant sites or mobi sites? Seperate the two please because again...a mobile internet does not need mobi. Companies that have used mobi to brand their mobile sites have made that marketing decision while others have used different methods. It's difficult to assess which is the correct way to go but I have a feeling that it's a wash. Either way a company decides to go is probably just fine. IMHO the "need" as you put it for mobi doesn't actually exist. The only need here is for mobi investors to convince others that mobi is a must have good investment for mobile internet usage.

This probably also needs to be done before the gTLDs kick off and the world has TLD overload.

Exactly. You tried to make the argument of 10-12 years...mobi doesn't have that amount of time. At best it's 2-4 years but 3 years into this it's not looking very favorable for mobi domain investors. Again...that's domain investors. If you run a successful mobi site then kudos.

They are using .mobi, and not using .net or .org.

That's irrelevent to the discussion imho of mobi valuation. Did these companies pay premium prices to obtain their mobi? Mobi is suited for branding. Domainers for the most part don't give a crap about branding. Think about that please. Part of the inherent value of domains is natural traffic and search engine optimization of generics like papertowels.com which is owned by Bounty. Would Bounty start papertowels.mobi? The mobi is sedo parked btw. Now imho this is great example. Would Bounty go out and offer $5k for papertowels.mobi? I kind of think not. Lots of discussion about major companies and their mobi development but overall it's normally brand sites. Bounty MIGHT do bounty.mobi but it's questionable if they would even pay a premium for that name. Bounty.mobi doesn't resolve and is in fact owned by P&G. So do you see the valuation problem?

Probably because you don't have any nice ones to sell.

This is very true. It goes to show that I have no motive other than the truth and discussion. Many mobi fans that tout it's "need" in the market and future prospect are indeed owners of mobi domains. This does not imho bode well for objectivity. If I did invest in 500 mobi domains I can almost assure you that I would be arguing the pro mobi stance. Nothing unnatural about rooting for your investment. Yet not investing in mobi doesn't mean I have to naturally dislike mobi. On the contrary I could remain neutral and not care. I am pretty neutral on .tv and I don't own a single tv name. You won't find words from me on this site discussion how tv is a bad investment for domainers. As a matter of fact I think tv domains probably have more value than mobi and better long term options. So me not having any to sell works to my advantage not against me.

Jesse - You have often touted how you develop and live off of revenues from websites you've built. Does that mean that you are not a domainer now - and just playing one on TV?

Domaining is only a part of what I do. However I just sold a LLL.biz. I am very much still in the domain market with about 400+ domains. That's about a 20% reduction in my portfolio since the price drops and also since I stopped buying regularly as I work on my major sites. I would say 25% of my current income is domaining while three years ago it was 60%. It fluctuates as I am a jack-of-all-trades guy. I go where the money is and make it however I can.

Does the admin here at NP know you faked your application for Modship at this "domaining-only" forum.

That sounds like a derogatory remark at the least it's facetious. I don't appreciate the insinuation I am a liar and hope you are professional enough to apologize. You're making a strawman argument.

So we should collectively cancel all plans for our generic mobis and run off to buy CNOs because many of you "experts" don't like .mobi or can't understand time frames past flipping or parking CNOs?

I don't believe that's been said. What is being said is that investing in mobi for a domainer is probably going to be a difficult way to find a return. Domaining is mainly speculative and many "experts" speculate it having low value. If you want to consider me an "expert" that's a compliment I will accept but at no point in this discussion have I or anyone in this thread referred to themselves as such. Many are happy to just express their opinion and discuss mobi. Those that feel mobi is a poor investment for domainers shouldn't have to defend their status or be mocked.

As has already been said many .mobi speculators are now banking on development, that is because the reason why they registered those domains in the first place has not worked out, they can't resell for a profit and there is no traffic. I'm fairly sure what the next thing to not work out will be....it starts with a "d".

I have in this post expressed the same sentiment. It's becoming more clear this years as the resale market has bottomed out for mobi that the only alternative is to develop. A prospect most domainers won't touch unless forced to do so. It's a rare domainer that buys to build. I am one of those people. I actually do domain buying with intent to develop. As Snoop says...domaining" and "webmastering" are entirely different skillsets but I want to add they aren't mutually exclusive. One can certainly be both.

 

[snoop]

When people and businesses decide to actually use a domain name in ANY extension and it continues to build over time it is a success. If the registry stays in business and makes money it is a successful business.

You could apply that stard of "success" to just about any tld. The .cc registry is still in business, is making money with some companies using it. Unfortunately we are standing here as domainers, we're on the other side of the coin to the registry operators, our expense is their revenue, ie our loss is their gain.

I'm sure that the "experts" and those who hang on their every word are not pleased with the unfortunate losses many "domainers" have taken (IF they sold) or that they are experiencing on the millions of dollars worth of .com domains that they bought from 2006-2008. Bought based on 5-8 years of PPC stats, etc. You know, the way all the "experts" valued domains.

That is reality. The thing is with .mobi is that very few domainers look to have gained, aside from the people who sold out while it was still booming.

Who said that .mobi domains would be high traffic domains ASAP. Can't you see and admit that the buildout of the mobile web is JUST starting. Somehow that small fact can not be grasped by those who continue to proclaim that .mobi is finished. What a bunch of uninformed hooey.

Nobody, but that fact is it has been out for several years and prices have crashed (90-100% losses being the norm), domainers are voting on the success of this extension with their wallets.

All I hear you say is what doesn't work ... PPC parking not working, minisites won't work, etc. What is the snoop's real life prescription for those domainers who hold dozens or hundreds of domains ... com/net/org/mobi/etc? Are you holding out with a secret formula that we should all know about?

I said minisites are not scalable and parking doesn't work for names with no traffic. I didn't make the blanket statement you suggest about either.

So no-one is capable of handling both "domaining" and "webmastering"? No person, no partnership, no company?

I said mass development doesn't work. People registering dozens/hundreds of domains then deciding they are going to develop those names when they can't be sold isn't a workable strategy. They'll need to get rid of most of their holdings.

How could you or anyone else possibly know what my or other .mobi investors' or speculators' plans are for profiting from our .mobi name holdings, short-term, mid-term or long-term??

My plans/your plans are irrelevant. Here and now is what matters, who is making money from domaining in .mobi?

How could you somehow know and state for a fact that we can't sell at a profit .... now, next month, next year, ever ... none of our names, some of our names?

Most people have very large losses, that is obvious.

Is there an official time limit that "true domaining" domainers should sell names by? Within one month, within one year, within five years? Should time limit that pertain to all of our names, some of our names, some extensions, all extensions?

In my opinion they need to have a model that works right now. If they are losing money now and hope a rising market will cure it they are kidding themselves. If you have 5000 .mobi names and you consistently selling enough to make an overall profit? That is what counts.

Finally, many people of all levels of experience have in the past and in all likelihood will continue to in the future register subpar and downright awful domain names in EVERY extension. In new extensions and in old established extensions. Just look at the JUNK that gets dropped every day in ALL extensions.

The fact is in new extensions the success rates are far lower than in established extensions. I'm yet to meet a new tld millionaire. In fact I've only ever heard of a couple of people even making a living from new tlds.

Far more money will be lost and wasted by domainers dropping com/net/org names in a month or two than on .mobi names in a whole year. Now that the natural initial junk dump phase is completed .mobi will grow more organically and eventually mimic the movement of com/net/org.
.

The is because the market is probably 100 times or more in size. If Donald Trump loses more in one day than the average person makes in a life time that doesn't mean the average guy is in a good position.

 

[HeyNow]

More like "Hooray, the squatters, TM infringers, and ppc schemers are don't want them!" Basically, the pond-scum in this business don't want the names.

 

[mjnels]

i am enjoying this thread.

and from a pure play domaining perspective i find myself agreeing with snoop much much more often than disagreeing. if we're talking about the "here and now" a lot of his points are dead on.

also am enjoying the new "recovering-jerk" labrocca.. still very much a smartass but i like that and i think he would take this as a compliment.

 

[labrocca]

Snoop does bring a good insight to a lot of threads at NP. I always enjoy reading his posts. IMHO he is one of those pure-play domainers that I look at for trends in the market. While I can't always agree with the guy I am certainly always going to listen to what he has to say.

also am enjoying the new "recovering-jerk" labrocca.. still very much a smartass but i like that and i think he would take this as a compliment.

Gracias. It's not "recovering smart-ass"...that's something I may never recover from.

 

[headstart]

i am enjoying this thread.

and from a pure play domaining perspective i find myself agreeing with snoop much much more often than disagreeing. if we're talking about the "here and now" a lot of his points are dead on.

also am enjoying the new "recovering-jerk" labrocca.. still very much a smartass but i like that and i think he would take this as a compliment.

I think it's a great thread but it looks like the level is not high enough to get more MOBI supporters in,
thats a pitty, and indeed, labrocca's and snoop's replies are worth reading.

 

[scandiman]

and from a pure play domaining perspective i find myself agreeing with snoop much much more often than disagreeing. if we're talking about the "here and now" a lot of his points are dead on.

Which perspectives do you find most accurate? An awful lot (or maybe a lot of awful:]) has been said.

In general though I agree it's been a good thread, the mud slinging has been kept to a minimum from both sides of the fence.

 

[acc]

Jesse - I apologize for not making sure my comment was clear and as easily interpreted as I meant it to be. It was not meant to impune your character in any way. We know (and I stated) that you have mentioned many times that you make a living from the revenues off of multiple websites.
My attempt was to joke that NP should not have hired you on as a mod because being a developer that you are not a pure "domainer" as in snoop's eyes (which IS an active point of contention in THIS thread). And then why would a "domain" forum hire non-domainers? .... Maybe if I used the word "fudged" it would have better shown that I was being sarcastic. Or a maybe few smileys would have done it too. My mistake. Oh well, when you have to explain a joke ....

I may not agree with the actions and statements made by some forum mods at times. But I sincerely appreciate the efforts and dedication of you guys.


...Back to the thread, - My point was (as I thought it fit with the rest of that rebuttal) about being a "pure domainer" as snoop is trying to say we all should be. According to his logic, .mobi does not hold value as a PPC magnet yet any talk of developing .mobi domains as an alternative to selling makes one a failure, makes the extension a failure in his eyes.

Guys, those of us who believe in the potential to be successful with .mobi domains will resell, develop, or do whatever OUR OWN business models allow. We can adapt IF necessary, and as necessary.
Again, anyone who has not enjoyed any end user sales of .mobi names are not commenting from a position of personal experience. I'm not saying that all .mobi domainers will have financial success. But then again, nor will all domainers in ANY extension in general.

Reg money is being thrown at ALL extensions, (including mostly at the fully annointed .com/.net/.org no matter how useless many of those names are). And of course I know that those extensions are larger hence more money will be spent and lost on them.

An extraordinary amount of negativity has been and continues to be directed at .mobi. The microscopes of those with no skin in the game have been for some reason pointed more often and more passionately at .mobi.

This pertains to not just NP discussions but the industry in general. Some people in this industry have real big itchy bugs up their butts against .mobi. They do NOT apply the same standards to .mobi as other "acceptable" established extensions. They do not give credence, acknowledgement, or even the benefit of the doubt to those who choose to pursue .mobi "domaining" and/or developing.

Sales of .mobi names can and do pay for renewals of other names held in a person's domain portfolio. (Of course the better the quality names, the better the risk-reward ratio.) Why can't .mobi fit in the puview of "successful domaining" too?

A nice portfolio of generic .mobi domains has and can have the same potential to generate a nice return on investment compared to any other recently available domains in the same price range in othert extensions. And if .mobi domainers' business plan include development of .mobi names as well as reselling them, then it is too bad if some "experts" do not consider that pursuit "domaining".

It comes down to foresight, not hindsight.

The mobile web is in its infancy. Dot mobi was introduced to be part of its build out. To write it off like some people continue to do is shortsighted in my opinion. It's not for everyone. I'm not saying it is. But investing in and the development of .mobi names is as valid a path of domaining as any other. Some will choose to pursue it, some will continue to choose not to acknowledge it.
.

 

[scandiman]

Raising the profile doesn't mean the value will significantly increase. Yes it would go up some but I believe relative to CNO it wouldn't be much. What would raise the value substantially? Another round of hype. However I have never seen a 2 round hype of any market. People can be fooled once into believing something is "it" but that time has passed. I would rather invest in Beenie Babies.

It's ironic that in the past one of your main arguments against .mobi was that no one knows about it, but now you're saying that even if .mobi is a household word and is developed and promoted by even well known companies that it still has little effect on the value of the extension. Your solution to substantial value is hype? I think you're losing objectivity here, awareness and usage is exactly what any TLD needs to thrive, not hype.

Most of the exceptional names are held by mTLD. I see that as a problem for the extension don't you? Even what's released at sunrise how many have $xx,xxx value? I personally don't see any $xx,xxx mobi sales happening anytime soon.

I have no problem with mTLD holding Premium names, would they be better off in the hands of a domain speculator parking them with Sedo? mTLD is in a position to strategically release names in a way no domain speculator can. As for sunrise names, those are all for TM's so I'm not understanding your question about values here.

 

[labrocca]

My point was (as I thought it fit with the rest of that rebuttel about being a "pure domainer" as snoop is trying to say we all should be. According to his logic, .mobi does not hold value as a PPC magnet yet any talk of developing .mobi domains as an alternative to selling makes one a failure, makes the extension a failure in his eyes.

You're making broad assumptions and statement to rebuttal fine points. I believe both Snoop and I are stating how mobi is a poor investment for domain investors. For me I know if you reg a mobi with intent to develop that's not an investment in the domain as much as an investment into a website. I hope you see the differences. You want to paint a broad stroke on our statements but please don't.

I also don't see Snoop saying you should all be pure domainers either. I am sure he respects development it's just not his method. You can't argue againt a guys methods if indeed they do work for him. Snoop makes top dollars from what I have seen at NP.

Guys, those of us who believe in the potential to be successful with .mobi domains will resell, develop, or do whatever OUR OWN business models allow.

That's an admirable position. IMHO...screw what people think or do if what you're doing does work for you. I can only preach what works for me and I can discuss my opinions. Respectfully that's all any of us can really do here.

Reg money is being thrown at ALL extensions, (including mostly at the fully annointed .com/.net/.org no matter how useless many of those names are). And of course I know that those extensions are larger hence more money will be spent and lost on them.

This is true but I regularly see new dotcom's registered flipped quickly for profit. That's part of a healthy domain market and a strength of CNO vs other TLD's like mobi or biz. You can still data mine for good CNO's and create profit off new registrations.

An extraordinary amount of negativity has been and continues to be directed at .mobi. The microscopes of those with no skin in the game have been for some reason pointed more often and more passionately at .mobi.

This is very true. It's been discussed a lot about why we discuss mobi so much. To be honest it's probably a good thing for mobi. Better to be discussed than ignored.

They do NOT apply the same standards to .mobi as other "acceptable" established extensions.

Maybe because Mobi itself has decided not to follows standards. mTLD has tried to create a "mobile internet" frenzy. For a while IDN's were also a topic of heated debated. You can also see now where IDN's are in the world of domainers.

They do not give credence, acknowledgement, or even the benefit of the doubt to those who choose to pursue .mobi "domaining" and/or developing.

I'll ask you again to seperate these two. Many don't believe that mobi domaining is a profitable venture. I don't see a lot of people against development of any sort. I am a believer that many domainers are jealous of good developers. Imagine instead of having to buy or sell hundreds or even thousands of domains you only have to run a small set of websites...or even better..just one. Certainly RJ is happy with Namepros. I would rather own NP than a $xxx,xxx generic anyday. Mobi domaining and development are two different beasts.

A nice portfolio of generic .mobi domains has and can have the same potential to generate a nice return on investment compared to any other recently available domains in the same price range in othert extensions.

Sales charts and figures show otherwise. More sales happen in info and biz than mobi. You can still obtain a great portfolio in either extension at a reasonable price. Just about every week I check the charts. info almost always has strong sales in the category. And there is almost nothing special about info. One would think mobi would have the better sales but in fact it doesn't. Maybe you can explain to me why.

It comes down to foresight, not hindsight

Hmm...foresight or fortune telling and wishful thinking? It's that type of blind forward thinking that irks many who discuss the cons of mobi. Fans and enthusiasts continue to look forward and ignore the present and past. Three years ago these same forward thinking people are still saying "think into the future". Well how far do you go into that future before you look at the present and say..."hey this investment isn't paying off". Domains are not stocks. Domains are not real estate. Domains are an intangible contract right whose value is based solely on the market. Carefully review that market as a domainer. Don't think of mobile usage or what company has what site. Just analyze the data and consider realistic future options for mobi. Don't IF IF IF mobi to death. Really sit and think how those IF's will occur and how likely are they. What would have to happen to make mobi domain investments pay off. What are the chances such instances will happen?

It's ironic that in the past one of your main arguments against .mobi was that no one knows about it, but now you're saying that even if .mobi is a household word and is developed and promoted by even well known companies that it still has little effect on the value of the extension.

I knew I was going to be called out on that one. But as time passes my views mature. I think mobi is past the point that it can be a strong domain investment. I am however seeing the light on mobi development potential. While I won't say it's a must-have it's certainly used enough that if you do have a mobile site using mobi might be your best option. But isn't that the entire intent of mobi? And again..that's sort of my point. They have achieved their goal. Want a mobile website...then get a mobi! Yet valuations stink for domainers. When mobi was released I didn't have a cell phone with internet usage. Since Xmas I have had a G1 (love it) so I am now a mobile net user. It's slightly changed my view on mobi. Mobile compliant sites can be great but unfortunately my cell is used more for apps. I have played with Blackberry's and iphones and they have the same APPS style too. The internet isn't used the same way. People don't "browse" on cell phones. Heck it's very rare I type a URL at all into my phone. Normally it's off search. Eventually searches will draw mobile content only or the cells will deal with full sites in their own manner. The mobi mission imho is achieved. It's as successful as it will get imho.

I have no problem with mTLD holding Premium names, would they be better off in the hands of a domain speculator parking them with Sedo?

What about giving them to appropriate companies? The premiums have been discussed plenty. For the most part it seems many agree that something should be done with them and mTLD holding them forever is a waste.

 

[mjnels]

Which perspectives do you find most accurate? An awful lot (or maybe a lot of awful:]) has been said.

In general though I agree it's been a good thread, the mud slinging has been kept to a minimum from both sides of the fence.

well, i too have noticed that quite often people that started off being interested as "domainers"(simply buying/selling domains for a profit) in newer TLDs have resorted to development when it didnt work out.. and this is not necessarily a bad thing IF you put some thought into what you're doing, know what you're doing, or really willing to take the time and learn to do it properly instead of throwing up some lame site that does almost nothing except make you feel good and makes you no money (and doesnt really even have the potential to make you money in the future).. unfortunately, many people fall into the category of just "developing" some lame template based site just to say "lookie look, im a developer now"... this is certainely not everyone and i dont want to generalize but it does seem to be the case with the majority of people involved in new TLD's (com, net, org too.. but with new TLD's I think its much more common)

 

[scandiman]

I knew I was going to be called out on that one. But as time passes my views mature. I think mobi is past the point that it can be a strong domain investment. I am however seeing the light on mobi development potential. While I won't say it's a must-have it's certainly used enough that if you do have a mobile site using mobi might be your best option. But isn't that the entire intent of mobi? And again..that's sort of my point. They have achieved their goal. Want a mobile website...then get a mobi! Yet valuations stink for domainers. When mobi was released I didn't have a cell phone with internet usage. Since Xmas I have had a G1 (love it) so I am now a mobile net user. It's slightly changed my view on mobi. Mobile compliant sites can be great but unfortunately my cell is used more for apps. I have played with Blackberry's and iphones and they have the same APPS style too. The internet isn't used the same way. People don't "browse" on cell phones. Heck it's very rare I type a URL at all into my phone. Normally it's off search. Eventually searches will draw mobile content only or the cells will deal with full sites in their own manner. The mobi mission imho is achieved. It's as successful as it will get imho.

I agree views can change, especially after you're now among the ranks of the mobile web users, and the ranks continue to grow each day. I'm glad you now acknowledge there is a benefit for sites that are designed for the mobile context, dealing with full sized PC websites on the small screen of a mobile is not for everyone, though it's certainly nice to be able to if needed. You're like a lot of people who are enjoying good apps, especially ones that can take advantage of phone features that websites can't. But that will change in time also. People do indeed "browse" on mobile devices, especially those people who don't have PC's or are basically switching over to mobile devices for the convenience. The US perspective is behind the times in this regard relative to some other parts of the world.

What about giving them to appropriate companies? The premiums have been discussed plenty. For the most part it seems many agree that something should be done with them and mTLD holding them forever is a waste.

That's what they are doing but some observers want a faster pace. The one and two character domains is a prime example of what's going on in this regard, taking us back full circle to a site we agree is a good one NV.mobi.

Using this as an example for valuation discussion, what impact do you feel the .mobi activities of the Nevada Commission on Tourism is having on my own domain Reno(.)mobi? It's not for sale and is slated for my own development, but has the raw domain's value increased in your opinion thanks to NV.mobi development and promotion?

 

[snoop]

Sales of .mobi names can and do pay for renewals of other names held in a person's domain portfolio. (Of course the better the quality names, the better the risk-reward ratio.) Why can't .mobi fit in the puview of "successful domaining" too?

Where are these success stories?

But investing in and the development of .mobi names is as valid a path of domaining as any other.
.

Given the failure rate is so high, how can it be concluded it is just as valid a path as other areas of domaining. It comes back to the same old question, who is making money from these domains? If there is money in it why have the domainers that were buying stopped buying? ie prices are down 90%-100%. At the end of the day the values in aftermarket are the best guide you'll ever get as to how well domainers are doing with an extension.

 

[acc]

Where are these success stories?

For a domain investor/speculator (in any extension) it doesn't take many sales from that part of your holdings to cover the annual reg fees - IF you have a number of usable generics and good LLLs and then get a few decent sales. You can wait out a market downturn or bide time while you develop some of the names as planned. And keep selling along the way as needed.

So here's a real example,
One $1500 sale pays for 150 renewals
One $2500 sale pays for 250 renewals
One $5000 sale pays for 500 renewals

Before you summarily dismiss the numbers above, they are actual examples of some personal end-user .mobi name sales this year - a couple of the above were reported on Sedo and the other was a private sale.

The bottom line is that -- good, usable names -- in non-CNO extensions sell too. So yes, they can and do cover their holding costs. And multiple $xxx sales add up too.

Given the failure rate is so high, how can it be concluded it is just as valid a path as other areas of domaining. It comes back to the same old question, who is making money from these domains? If there is money in it why have the domainers that were buying stopped buying? ie prices are down 90%-100%. At the end of the day the values in aftermarket are the best guide you'll ever get as to how well domainers are doing with an extension.

What "failure rate is so high"? What rate? What is a "failure rate"? Are you making a term up? Show us all the math. Show us all the names. Do you think your math applies to everyone?

Why aren't ALL the .mobi names on the market selling? Several reasons.

Quality should be considered first. Surely you would not suggest that every single term and brandable .mobi name should be bought up just because it's available at the moment. As one looks at the majority of .mobi drops left now or many names in the forums sales sections, why would you buy most of them unless they happen to fit a niche you are focusing on?

My view is that domainers who have experienced and/or see the potential in .mobi have likely had their fill from all their original regs/purchases in 2006-2008 plus a nice second helping of good names acquired during the first major drop cycle that occurred in 2008/2009.

Continued falling of PPC revenues and lower selling/flipping prices for CNOs means less "free money" to flow into other domaining sectors. Another fator - lots of available new money was chasing the .asia and then the .tel landrushes.

And MOST importantly, no doubt slower names sales and lower price points have hit the domainer market in total as a reflection of the downturn of the entire worldwide economy. Less capital flowing.

"Most households have reduced spending. In a recent survey conducted by the McKinsey Journal, 90% of “respondents said that their households had reduced spending as a result of the recession.” Of that, 33% cited significant decreases in spending.""

The state of ANY market (real or percieved) today will be different in the future.


Let's put things in real perspective. Add up how many names drop every single day from domainers giving up names in ALL extensions.

Add up ALL those dropped name DOLLARS going forward. To have comparable situations you can not use the artificially high drop rates from the peak months of the recent initial .mobi drop cycle and compare drops of other extensions during that time period. So let's add up the DOLLARS going forward.

Yep, add up all those annual actual lost DOLLARS resulting from lousy regs or even decent regs dropped by impatient domainers without a plan. I understand that there are more regs and domainers involved with CNO, etc than with mobi. But let's look at the total DOLLARS lost. Real, spendable, cold hard cash capital. Not relative stats and percentages.

In the aftermarket sadly, actual losses are happening even with good .COM names in big chunks. Your "documented domain losses" thread at another forum you know well shows this. For those who have paid big $$$$ for names in ANY extension, if they sold off at a loss it IS a loss. If they hold onto those names with a plan it is a paper loss. Yes, that even applies to .coms.

So IMHO, the anti-mobi-save-the-domainers-evangelists should focus their efforts where it will have the most material impact - saving the 1000s of new and average domainers who are regging TM names, typos, brandables, and chasing LLLLLLs and CVVVVCVCVCVCVs buyouts just because they are Com/Net/Org. But, if that's someone's thing - have at it.


Big .com domainers hold out for better prices and are praised for doing so when their record sales are reported and then discussed to death on domainer forums and blogs. Non-CNO domain holders are held to a different standard by some.

Alternative extension sales obviously happen on a much smaller scale (frequency and price point), but there are similarities. It baffles me why domainers can't acknowledge success of others who choose to include not-yet-mainstream products (names) on a smaller scale.

Investments require the same patience and planning whether they are part of a ten million dollar portfolio or a thousand dollar portfolio. If you run an upscale business in Manhattan there is no reason to look down your nose at someone who runs a similar but more modest business in the new suburbs. Suburbs grow. Opportunities exist.


If domain holders have a game plan, with a plan B and maybe a even a plan C & D in the wings - and they hold usable-in-the-real-world-keyword names in a new or "alternative" extension, then there is a good possibility that they can make their investment be successful. (But God-forbid they "develop" any names along the way to deviate from being "pure domainers"... some people just don't think that's right ... )

"If you believe you can or believe you can't - you're right."​

Planning, patience, and persistence - trumps panning and pessimism.
.

 

[labrocca]

The state of ANY market (real or percieved) today will be different in the future.

You're stating the obvious but not adding that it doesn't have to do well.

Continued falling of PPC revenues and lower selling/flipping prices for CNOs means less "free money" to flow into other domaining sectors.

On my websites I have had nothing but increasing revenue. Do you park?

btw acc...do you have a portfolio list? I am curious to see what you hold.

You can go have a laugh at my dwinndling portfolio here:
Domain for Sale

It's now filled with forum names as it's my development specialty and I have sold off a good deal of my good keyword names. Not an A-list portfolio but I still get end-user sales.

 

[mo_dork]

You're stating the obvious but not adding that it doesn't have to do well.

On my websites I have had nothing but increasing revenue. Do you park?

btw acc...do you have a portfolio list? I am curious to see what you hold.

You can go have a laugh at my dwinndling portfolio here:
Domain for Sale

It's now filled with forum names as it's my development specialty and I have sold off a good deal of my good keyword names. Not an A-list portfolio but I still get end-user sales.

Thought I saw a mobile related in there-
mforum.com:gn:

but it was-
rnforum.com

Ok, so now send us your mobi list!
Don't be shy.

---------- Post added at 04:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:20 PM ----------

So Labrocca i am glad to hear your list is profitable for you. Do you think that all .mobi names have negligible value or do you think there are some generic word mobis that may be more valuable in the long run than many of your sub-generic names?

 

[Morph]

rickroll.mobi
rickrolled.mobi

+1 internets for you sir. :tu:

 

[mjnels]

rickroll.mobi
rickrolled.mobi

+1 internets for you sir. :tu:

yea but.. -1 internets for you for actually using the term "internets" in 2009.