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New Member Disclaimer: Four letter domain names are a relatively new investment category that is only beginning to gain traction in Dotcom. This domaining sector offers potentially larger returns than traditional revenue or traffic based domain names, however with this investment opportunity comes extravagant risk.

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It was only a matter of time... First King Com. Then .CN fell. And now... I present to you LLLL.net :!:

This thread is designed to elicit discussion about LLLL.nets. You're encouraged to post anything you feel is relevant to LLLL.nets in this thread. This includes sales information, new regs, ...

Feb 05, 2008: All quad premium LLLL.nets are registered
 
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The views expressed on this page by users and staff are their own, not those of NamePros.
AfternicAfternic
krx said:
So how do you go about creating – today – one of these “portfolios which generate consistent revenue from enduser sales.” I’d sincerely like to know this. What is this path to success that no one seems to know about?

Look, if I got into domaining 5 or 10 years ago, and knew then what I know today, I might now have a portfolio like the one you describe. That is because I would have done then what I'm doing now: buying domains in a variety of niches that I see as likely to grow in value over time.


Where are these domains that you can buy today and turn around and sell tomorrow at a good ROI? They're few and far between, that's where. Everybody in this business is angling to find them. Some of us are looking farther down the road toward niches that may have value in 3 to 5 years. There are various models - in practice by real, live domainers (not the fantasy domainer that has found the goose that lays the golden egg) - for how to sustain this investment strategy. If LLLL domainers were not finding financially sustainable ways to manage their LLLL investments we would have seen a lot more drops pre-buyout anniversary than we did.

I think you are saying "it is all too hard, that is why we have to buy crappy llll.net's", that seems to be about what your argument is based on? The difficulty of generating income from sources aside from other domainers?

Yes it is hard, building a domain business that is viable for longer than one boom was never easy, buying crap is not the solution. At the end of the day all the people looking for the quick and easy money will lose their shirts, the current market is a clearing out process, the real business models will survive and the models based on flipping to the next speculator will fail. Don't ask me where the easy money is...there isn't any.

Likewise the people who are buying domain hoping they have value in "3 to 5 years" aren't likely to do well either, if the domains are worth nothing today the chance of someone making money by holding them for years is likely very slim.
 
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snoop said:
I think you are saying "it is all too hard, that is why we have to buy crappy llll.net's", that seems to be about what your argument is based on? The difficulty of generating income from sources aside from other domainers?

Yes it is hard, building a domain business that is viable for longer than one boom was never easy, buying crap is not the solution. At the end of the day all the people looking for the quick and easy money will lose their shirts, the current market is a clearing out process, the real business models will survive and the models based on flipping to the next speculator will fail. Don't ask me where the easy money is...there isn't any.

Likewise the people who are buying domain hoping they have value in "3 to 5 years" aren't likely to do well either, if the domains are worth nothing today the chance of someone making money by holding them for years is likely very slim.

Dont agree with that. If you take a look at LLL.com you can see it goes other side.
There were always problem of speculator. They are always there, but some are not.
And looking at LLL.org you can see same, gold-price is directly in same line like LLL.net.
So following that if you just add L to LLL.net there will be some more of them.
But at last if you decide to make such statements, you must look at stocks and compare them to current number of buyers.
If buyers buy some of them then the value of LLLL.net is not higher than LLLL.com which will directly change value of LL-L.com and indirectly value of L-LL.net.

I hope for you snoop you have also taken the value of currently new produced technology in your statement. because you try to compare them,
but not taking it into chart.

What do you think the value of LL.net compared to LLLLL.com is going ?
Increase or decrease ? I mean if stocks are going higher will that change or stay same ?
 
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zoki said:
Dont agree with that. If you take a look at LLL.com you can see it goes other side.
There were always problem of speculator. They are always there, but some are not.
And looking at LLL.org you can see same, gold-price is directly in same line like LLL.net.
So following that if you just add L to LLL.net there will be some more of them.
But at last if you decide to make such statements, you must look at stocks and compare them to current number of buyers.
If buyers buy some of them then the value of LLLL.net is not higher than LLLL.com which will directly change value of LL-L.com and indirectly value of L-LL.net.

I hope for you snoop you have also taken the value of currently new produced technology in your statement. because you try to compare them,
but not taking it into chart.

What do you think the value of LL.net compared to LLLLL.com is going ?
Increase or decrease ? I mean if stocks are going higher will that change or stay same ?

Sorry, I can't follow most of this.
 
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snoop said:
I think you are saying "it is all too hard, that is why we have to buy crappy llll.net's", that seems to be about what your argument is based on? The difficulty of generating income from sources aside from other domainers?

Yes it is hard, building a domain business that is viable for longer than one boom was never easy, buying crap is not the solution. At the end of the day all the people looking for the quick and easy money will lose their shirts, the current market is a clearing out process, the real business models will survive and the models based on flipping to the next speculator will fail. Don't ask me where the easy money is...there isn't any.

Likewise the people who are buying domain hoping they have value in "3 to 5 years" aren't likely to do well either, if the domains are worth nothing today the chance of someone making money by holding them for years is likely very slim.
You argue like my mother-in-law. LOL! As soon as she is beaten on one front she shifts the terms to another.

You know as well as I do that's not what I said nor what I even remotely implied. If you can't defend your position than be a man and admit you are wrong.

You said LLLL domains are a bad investment because they are speculative and that you prefer "portfolios which generate consistent revenue from enduser sales."

Who wouldn’t prefer this?

But I ask again, where are these domains that are available today, that require no risk or speculation, and that can be sold tomorrow at a profit? Can you name some? Where are these domains that are such safe and reliable investments relative to the "speculative" LLLL domains? Can you answer the question and defend your position - or not?
 
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krx said:
But I ask again, where are these domains that are available today, that require no risk or speculation, and that can be sold tomorrow at a profit? Can you name some? Where are these domains that are such safe and reliable investments relative to the "speculative" LLLL domains? Can you answer the question and defend your position - or not?

I've already said it many times, there is no such thing as a "safe" "no risk" domain.

Secondly the last thing I am talking about is buying domains "that can be sold tomorrow at a profit". I'm telling people that model of trying to sell to another domainer for more is largely dead in the current market, look for revenue from outside this industry - traffic, endusers etc. Yes I know that is hard....good deals will not slap you in the face and most will not be able to do it, the success rate will be far better than those trying to flip 4 letter .net's though.
 
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snoop said:
Secondly the last thing I am talking about is buying domains "that can be sold tomorrow at a profit". I'm telling people that model of trying to sell to another domainer for more is largely dead in the current market, look for revenue from outside this industry - traffic, endusers etc. Yes I know that is hard....good deals will not slap you in the face and most will not be able to do it, the success rate will be far better than those trying to flip 4 letter .net's though.

Over the last 2 months I've flipped 80 quad premium LLLL.nets for 25% average profit and 150 double, triple and single premiums for 40%+ average profit, STILL, I have to agree with snoop as I've been quite lucky with those sales. (most were from 4 bulk deals)

These days is very hard to flip these random names for more than $1 or $2 profit after fees, which makes this a hard to play game and specially a time consuming game.

I still own a couple hundred LLLL.nets and I'll be throwing all those to Sedo, Afternic, wherever, really soon, and I'll also start finding end users for some.
Selling one of those quads for $200 (and that is not really very hard) is a lot better than wasting hours flipping burgers... :p
 
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snoop said:
I've already said it many times, there is no such thing as a "safe" "no risk" domain.

Secondly the last thing I am talking about is buying domains "that can be sold tomorrow at a profit". I'm telling people that model of trying to sell to another domainer for more is largely dead in the current market, look for revenue from outside this industry - traffic, endusers etc. Yes I know that is hard....good deals will not slap you in the face and most will not be able to do it, the success rate will be far better than those trying to flip 4 letter .net's though.
I think you shifted the topic again. This is not about selling inside or outside the industry. That's not the point we've been debating. And no one is complaining about having to work hard to succeed at domaining - that is a given. Disagreeing with you does not make someone lazy.

Your argument is that LLLL domains – high quality (premium, pronounceable) LLLL.nets and all LLLL.coms - are a bad investment choice because there is no good market for them now and there never will be. The market value, in general, will never exceed the cost ~ thus there is no profit in them. Is that not your argument?

Obviously no one here holds a domaining crystal ball. To say domains that have no value today will have no value in the future strikes me as a comment you probably regret, since almost all domain sales data would refute it. Niches that are not popular or highly valued one day become so the next. Predicting such trends is what investing is all about. It’s one way that people make money in this industry.

Plausible arguments based on actual analysis have been made many times before demonstrating that it is at least reasonable to expect that the ENDUSER market for LLLL domains will grow significantly over time (3 - 5 years). Models for how to financially sustain an investment in LLLL domains over this period have also been demonstrated. No need to repeat those points again here.

Conclusion: investing in LLLL domains (high quality nets and a mixture of cheaper/lower quality to more expensive/higher quality coms) as PART of one's portfolio is a reasonable domaining strategy. Individual domainers can choose whether or not it makes sense for them.

You also argue that there are safer investment opportunities in domaining, including traffic domains and domains with clear enduser appeal. It’s true - I see plenty of those types of domains selling for good money in major industry auctions and other sales venues. With the exception of dictionary word LLLLs, there are not as many LLLL domains in the same sales category.

But the fact that traffic/keyword domains garner a larger share of sales revenues doesn’t really mean they are a more reliable investment. This is because there are that many more domainers all competing for those same, presumably “safer,” sales slots. Greater competition usually means lower ROI and I suspect there are many investments in these niches that make very little or even lose money. So who knows how many domainers lose money or actually turn a buck pursuing the approach you recommend? Who knows if it is more or less than those who also invest in LLLL domains?

Since it is not self-evident, I asked you to support with data or at least concrete examples the claim you are making that your recommended approach is so vastly superior. So far you have not.

My belief, bottom line, is that you can make money domaining in a number of different ways. But you need to really know your niche and you need to know what you are doing. Also, like a good stock portfolio, you need to be diversified. If a domainer started out today with a limited budget (as most do), would he really be better served by channeling ALL his time and money into traffic and generic/keyword domains, as you recommend? Or, if he can afford the risk, does it stand as a reasonable choice to make LLLL domains a part of his portfolio?

I think the answer is clear.

That's all I have to say on the subject... Now back to your regular programming. :)
 
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Excellent post Ken!
 
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krx said:
I think you shifted the topic again. This is not about selling inside or outside the industry. That's not the point we've been debating. And no one is complaining about having to work hard to succeed at domaining - that is a given. Disagreeing with you does not make someone lazy.

Your argument is that LLLL domains – high quality (premium, pronounceable) LLLL.nets and all LLLL.coms - are a bad investment choice because there is no good market for them now and there never will be. The market value, in general, will never exceed the cost ~ thus there is no profit in them. Is that not your argument?

You are putting words in my my mouth, what I am actually saying is investing in buyout LLLL.net's at this point is highly likely to result in losses.

krx said:
Obviously no one here holds a domaining crystal ball. To say domains that have no value today will have no value in the future strikes me as a comment you probably regret, since almost all domain sales data would refute it. Niches that are not popular or highly valued one day become so the next. Predicting such trends is what investing is all about. It’s one way that people make money in this industry.

As far as trend names go generally, most lose at this strategy, show me some examples of people who have made it with this strategy?

krx said:
Plausible arguments based on actual analysis have been made many times before demonstrating that it is at least reasonable to expect that the ENDUSER market for LLLL domains will grow significantly over time (3 - 5 years). Models for how to financially sustain an investment in LLLL domains over this period have also been demonstrated. No need to repeat those points again here.

What "models" have been presented?

krx said:
Conclusion: investing in LLLL domains (high quality nets and a mixture of cheaper/lower quality to more expensive/higher quality coms) as PART of one's portfolio is a reasonable domaining strategy. Individual domainers can choose whether or not it makes sense for them.

That is your opinion only, my opinion based on how the market has gone when things have got rocky in the past is that it is not a good strategy. As an example in the last downturn 3 letter .net's were being given away at one point. That is how bad things got for names like that. There was no market for the the low quality ones. The sad thing is low quality 4 letter .net's didn't even get bought out, so you can imagine how ugly things are likely to get.

krx said:
You also argue that there are safer investment opportunities in domaining, including traffic domains and domains with clear enduser appeal. It’s true - I see plenty of those types of domains selling for good money in major industry auctions and other sales venues. With the exception of dictionary word LLLLs, there are not as many LLLL domains in the same sales category.

But the fact that traffic/keyword domains garner a larger share of sales revenues doesn’t really mean they are a more reliable investment. This is because there are that many more domainers all competing for those same, presumably “safer,” sales slots.

I don't really follow, you say domains with enduser appeal and traffic are "safer" than registering 4 letter .net's but then a paragraph later you say these are not "more reliable". Seems inconsistent to me.

krx said:
My belief, bottom line, is that you can make money domaining in a number of different ways. But you need to really know your niche and you need to know what you are doing. Also, like a good stock portfolio, you need to be diversified. If a domainer started out today with a limited budget (as most do), would he really be better served by channeling ALL his time and money into traffic and generic/keyword domains, as you recommend? Or, if he can afford the risk, does it stand as a reasonable choice to make LLLL domains a part of his portfolio?

Diversification doesn't mean buying assets that don't even seem to sell for reg fee and these names are a proven losers in my view, look at all the llll.net's sell for $2 etc. In the past people have used this same concept to suggest people should invest in .mobi, .me and every other dud domain idea. Imagine if banks just decided to lend money to everyone regardless of their financial strength just because it was "diversification", they'd lose a packet.
 
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DEVELOP (I think I'm going to post this in every short domain thread).

That's the only way to truly eliminate your risk. Short domains (and especially quality LLLL.nets) are great for development -- how hard is it to find a meaningful acronym for a quad premium LLLL.net? It's not very difficult... I'm up to 70 uniques today on the site in my sig which I only started yesterday -- that's more traffic than most LLLL.nets are going to get in a year undeveloped, however it doesn't need to be that way.

Pretty much everyone is an expert on something, discover what you're an expert in and blog about it. You don't even need to know how to develop to setup a wordpress blog.

Any content so you can get around the parking company's archaic "no links" rule and you'll see way more traffic + revenue. You'll get 20-30 uniques/day easy just off of other NPers if you put 1 or 2 of them in your sig. Put a couple different ones in your sig on a different forum..Get some backlinks, and you're good to go, telling everyone about how your LLLL.nets are making you money.
 
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-REECE- said:
DEVELOP (I think I'm going to post this in every short domain thread).

That's the only way to truly eliminate your risk. Short domains (and especially quality LLLL.nets) are great for development -- how hard is it to find a meaningful acronym for a quad premium LLLL.net? [/B]

Agree that development is likely to be a good strategy *generally* for many assuming you want to focus on one or two sites. However the value created is going to be the result of your hard work rather than the name and I don't see how reg fee LLLL.net are particularly suited to development over other reg fee names either. At the end of the day it isn't going to make registering low quality LLLL.net's a good idea.
 
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snoop said:
At the end of the day it isn't going to make registering low quality LLLL.net's a good idea.
To my knowledge no one is recommending buying low quality LLLL.nets at this stage of the game.
 
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snoop said:
Agree that development is likely to be a good strategy *generally* for many assuming you want to focus on one or two sites. However the value created is going to be the result of your hard work rather than the name and I don't see how reg fee LLLL.net are particularly suited to development over other reg fee names either. At the end of the day it isn't going to make registering low quality LLLL.net's a good idea.

(I must be getting nuts here, but... :D)

SNOOP is totally right!


I'm a developer myself, for 10+ years now if you ask, and I guess I know a bit about development, how to get visitors, SEO, SE Traffic, etc, etc...

and honestly:

LLLL.nets are terrible to develop! (even though I have 1 developed with good results)

Most of my high profitable sites come from "keyword(s).com/net" domains and not from LLLL.xxx domains (even though I also have successful developed stuff in this area)

(Reece - check your traffic referrals, I believe 95%+ comes from NP members)
 
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krx said:
To my knowledge no one is recommending buying low quality LLLL.nets at this stage of the game.

Can you explain the kinds of names you are suggesting people should buy? I would say most of the ones on the market are low quality.

Here is a good example,

http://www.namepros.com/domains-for...9-120-llll-net-global-recession-firesale.html

The kind of names that don't even get interest at below reg fee prices. People registering rubbish like that are going to end out with no money in their pockets.
 
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I'll be a very rich man if I can get 95%+ of Namepros to visit my sites :sold:

Shenron said:
(Reece - check your traffic referrals, I believe 95%+ comes from NP members)

Thanks for sharing that Snoop. I admire the honesty some members have -- "Global Recession Firesale" :lol:



snoop said:
Can you explain the kinds of names you are suggesting people should buy? I would say most of the ones on the market are low quality.

Here is a good example,

http://www.namepros.com/domains-for...9-120-llll-net-global-recession-firesale.html

The kind of names that don't even get interest at below reg fee prices. People registering rubbish like that are going to end out with no money in their pockets.
 
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-REECE- said:
I'll be a very rich man if I can get 95%+ of Namepros to visit my sites :sold:

My bad English :)

I mean 95% of your current referrals, didn't mean 95% of NP members. ;)
 
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Your English is as good as mine :)

I said that meaning Namepros is a very large market of 100,000+ members and that if one could even have a sliver of that market as regular visitors to their site as well as Namepros, they'd be doing pretty well for themself.

Shenron said:
My bad English :)

I mean 95% of your current referrals, didn't mean 95% of NP members. ;)
 
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Agree Reece, still, if you're using Google adsense for example, most of those visitors would be pretty useless, that's why I say that developing LLLL.nets with the sole objective of getting "forum referrals" is pretty useless.
Google tends to discard most of those visitors or give them a pretty low weight on their "landing score", and sometimes the ultimate consequence is a "smart pricing" stamp on your account.
 
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Any opinion on these .nets? Just arrived in my account from TDNAM...
qono
qoco
qaza

I know the q is unpopular, but 17 Qvcv .coms have gone this year from low-mid $$$ to high $$$
 
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Lets get some more .nets registered

GODADDY $1.19 Domain Registration
Add any .COM domain to your cart and use promo code 99DOMAIN during checkout. This should work for one domain per account.


click here to see this deal

Have at it boys;)
 
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