debate Environmental Thread does anyone care that Amazon Rain Forest is burning down to the ground

[oldtimer]

This is a total catastrophe and failure for the World and humanity at large. There are some things that surpass national boundaries and borders like Human Rights and certain Environmental issues that affect the whole Globe which surely should be of concern to all of us. Whether it’s the Oceans and Rivers that have been polluted or whether it’s our air and soil that have been poisoned, it all has something to do with human activity like the Global Warming and the Melting of the Ice Caps and Glaciers which is going to put many coastal Cities and Communities under water soon. IMO

Everyone’s opinions are welcomed, but keep your comments constructive, professional, and on topic. Personal attacks and belittling of others are not tolerated.

 

[J Sokol]

There is only one way to put the brakes on it today...humans have to stop breeding/multiplying. I know we are animals but I have hope that the majority realizes what they are doing by bringing more that 2 children to the planet and then holds back on having offspring

This seems like one of the most obvious things we can do to curb climate change, yet in all the talk about the subject I rarely hear this mentioned.
Every time I see a baby or a pregnant woman, I feel sorry for them and fearful about their future.

 

[GILSAN]

There is only one way to put the brakes on it today...humans have to stop breeding/multiplying. I know we are animals but I have hope that the majority realizes what they are doing by bringing more that 2 children to the planet and then holds back on having offspring...lets just enjoy practicing to make children rather than seeing how many we can have.

It truly makes me sad to think what is ahead...that is why I have not brought children into this mess. I made that decision when I was a young man and it has left a void in my life but just thinking about my nieces/nephews and their coming offspring puts me into a funk. Things will plod along for one, maybe two more generations before things get dire (quicker if we have a global war or a couple of big regional wars).

The only thing that gives me any consolation is that the earth will take care of herself eventually. Even if nuke or bio weapons are used, in 2-3000 years the planet should recover.

Europe, North and South America, many parts of Asia have very low birth rates (average of about 1.5-1.6 children per woman) It's in Africa with over 5 and in parts of Asia and the Middle East with numbers of about 4 children per women, that the population has been exploding for quite some time now, without much prospect of slowing down at a rapid pace.

Those are the problem areas, not only because of population growth, but also pollution growth, which no one else talks about in this thread!

 

[Cal2]

You bring up some very good ideas. We have to have a multitrack approach to the climate Change and the Environmental issues. But while we have all these delegates from all these different Countries at the Climate Summit it's very important to make sure that they understand that it's not going to be business as usual after the Summit is over and they return to their big Villas and Mansions.

The reason that I empathize so much on their big Villas and Mansions is because that that kind of lifestyle along with owning multiple luxury cars and yachts uses more resources that any one person should be allowed to use.

Agree on the multi-tracking - as long as some of those tracks don't use up resources that could deliver better results by using them elsewhere.

On the villas, mansions - until we're able to break people of that 'bad habit':

I don't think people who live in such things care too much what we think - there's enough of them in their social groups that like to impress each other (and impress most others) with their cars, houses, yachts. So how does one 'design ways forward while leaving the problem in place'. One way you could try to influence them is through their ego - eg. sell them on the idea that what they have is passe.

One example of what could be sold as 'next generation' mansions are Tesla's mansions:
https://www.theverge.com/2019/6/25/...y-houses-electrical-grid-battery-installation

Add Tesla's tech to things like mansion construction 3D printing - https://www.digitalengineering247.com/article/winsun-pushes-the-frontier-of-3d-printed-housing ; throw in some carbon sequestering/power creating bio-reactors I mentioned in my last post; add in some more tech like energy creating heating/cooling redox systems, which give off oxygen and hydrogen by-products, that can be used as a power source; and you might end up with mansions that can give back more than they take out of the environment.

https://newatlas.com/energy-on-dema...ail&utm_term=0_65b67362bd-b852d88d4e-90628689

 

[JB Lions]

How dare you destroy the planet with all this plastic?

Show attachment 129874

Climate predictions made by scientists that never came true.

Show attachment 129875 Show attachment 129876

That list is nonsense, not sure if you knew that? I picked a couple at random below. It's just a list some anti-science climate change deniers like to pass around, since they know most people are lazy/gullible, won't actually check.

The random 2 I picked:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/nations-vanish-global-warming/

https://skepticalscience.com/Hansen-West-Side-Highway.htm

@GILSAN , and you are beginning to sound more and more like those pundits that have a political agenda.

We are not talking about me or any other individual person here, we are taking about Humanity as a whole.

From the other thread, just a denier. Not sure if you noticed but everytime you point something out, he'll divert and say so and so isn't doing anything, therefore? Always check any memes, graphics he posts, they're usually false.

And stuff like the lists above, always check who's behind them. Usually funded by fossil fuel companies. Basically any PragerU videos. It's like getting your facts about cigarettes from scientists bought and paid for by tobacco companies, remember those hearings?

 

[Cal2]

For what it's worth, Elon Musk and Jack Ma think there'll be a population collapse:

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/30/elo...oblem-world-will-face-is-population-drop.html

Some think we shouldn't listen to Musk and Ma: https://www.science20.com/robert_wa...ears_elon_musk_and_jack_ma_are_not_population

The death rate in some countries has come to exceed the birth rate. How much further that might go.....

 

[handpicked]

Few small steps I have taken towards this mission:

(a) Got certified for Environmental Management System (EMS) as Internal Auditor. By Bureau Veritas International - Successfully completed the course and passed ISO 14001 internal Auditor exam in 2016. This has helped me to to become the official internal auditor for ISO-14000 in an industry in addition to my existing job. I was able to implement segregation of toxic waste like printer cartridges etc., and establish separate disposal system for non bio-degradable / hazardous waste and also set tree sapling planting targets for various departmental staff resulting in over 500 saplings planted in last 2-3 years across the periphery compound walls of the industry.

(b) Photographed more that 650 dried-up or broken trees in an locality about 10 Sq. Km over the period of 2 years and frequently shared with local authorities to get it removed (for fall safety / prevent fire etc.,) and to replaced it with new saplings. I spend almost the whole of Sunday sometimes with my daughter in these activities.

(c) Scout to the local villages and tomato farms and educate the farmers on the need to use natural manures and enlighten them about the dangers of using excessive pesticides. Me and my daughter drive down to villages near by and do this sometimes. These activities helped her to gain knowledge about environment and also helped her to win the inter-college quiz trophy on environment conducted by district pollution control board last week. Yes, we are a small / 1 child family.

(d) Had two sparrow nests set up outside wall of the kitchen exhaust where generations of sparrows hatch and take off. We used to enjoy the sounds of newly hatched chicks. Now unfortunately, due to the presence of mobile phone towers they are not coming may be due to the irritating waves for them but bunch of parrots are frequenting the nearby trees. And we have named one of tree which the parrots like the most as 'Happy Tree'.

 

[oldtimer]

The death rate in some countries has come to exceed the birth rate. How much further that might go.....

Its hard to believe that with all the resources, experts, and technology that is at our disposal (specially AI and super computer models) we still can't come up with a plan to manage this little Planet of ours so that there wouldn't be so much damage, destruction, and pain and suffering going on.

 

[JB Lions]

Its hard to believe that with all the resources, experts, and technology that is at our disposal (specially AI and super computer models) we still can't come up with a plan to manage this little Planet of ours so that there wouldn't be so much damage, destruction, and pain and suffering going on.

People don't like to bring politics into this but there just isn't a way around it. Just from the American side, under Trump. We have a President that:

said climate change is a Chinese hoax

points to snow as evidence the climate change isn't real

talked about raking the forest when we had fires

said windmills give us cancer

etc. I mean, it's just stupid stuff.

Again, he's paid off by fossil fuel companies. You just can't get anything positive done under him and most Republicans. They bow down to those companies.

How about those recent meetings? The most recent one he stayed like 10/15 minutes, then dipped out. The big one before, he didn't even show up. Said he had meetings but.............the 2 other people that were in the meeting with him showed up. He doesn't care.

Think all the decisions on the environment under Trump. I can't think of anything positive, it's all backwards. Alaska mining, go ahead. New pipeline, go ahead. Restrictions, loosen those things up. Pulling out of Paris climate accord. Rolling back Obama era environmental regulations. California tries to tighten things up, our President fights against that.

Trump to Revoke California’s Authority to Set Stricter Auto Emissions Rules
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/poli...-rules/ar-AAHrjFQ?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=mailsignout

Nothing but backwards under him.

So much damage "environment under Trump"

https://www.google.com/search?clien...hUKEwimk6Gsy-3kAhWFdt8KHXuNDZ4Q4dUDCAo&uact=5

 

[oldtimer]

People don't like to bring politics into this but there just isn't a way around it. Just from the American side, under Trump. We have a President that:

said climate change is a Chinese hoax

points to snow as evidence the climate change isn't real

talked about raking the forest when we had fires

said windmills give us cancer

etc. I mean, it's just stupid stuff.

Again, he's paid off by fossil fuel companies. You just can't get anything positive done under him and most Republicans. They bow down to those companies.

How about those recent meetings? The most recent one he stayed like 10/15 minutes, then dipped out. The big one before, he didn't even show up. Said he had meetings but.............the 2 other people that were in the meeting with him showed up. He doesn't care.

Think all the decisions on the environment under Trump. I can't think of anything positive, it's all backwards. Alaska mining, go ahead. New pipeline, go ahead. Restrictions, loosen those things up. Pulling out of Paris climate accord. Rolling back Obama era environmental regulations. California tries to tighten things up, our President fights against that.

Trump to Revoke California’s Authority to Set Stricter Auto Emissions Rules
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/poli...-rules/ar-AAHrjFQ?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=mailsignout

Nothing but backwards under him.

So much damage "environment under Trump"

https://www.google.com/search?clien...hUKEwimk6Gsy-3kAhWFdt8KHXuNDZ4Q4dUDCAo&uact=5

For a minute lets imagine that we had two Planet Erarths, we give one to the Right to manage as they see fit and we give the other one to the Left and let them run it the way they think is best. The post that you just made gives us a good idea as to how the Right Earth is going to end up, so my question to you is to describe how the Left Earth is going to be considering that the Left that is managing it can do whatever they want to do without being held back or blocked by the Right anymore.

Is there still going to be inequality on the Left Earth, is everyone going to be living a simpler life with a smaller carbon foot print or are there still going to be some rich people who are going to indulge themselves in the luxuries and excesses of life by owning huge mansions, private jets and yachts, and multiple luxury cars. How much each person is going to be allowed to consume every year beyond the minimum necessities of life. And to expand this beyond the Environment how is the Left Earth going to look like when it comes to social issues such as having a minimum standard of living that includes having adequate and timely shelter, healthcare, education, and food as a basic human right.

I really am interested to know how the Left Earth is going to look like and be managed in case I want to move there.

 

[JB Lions]

For a minute lets imagine that we had two Planet Erarths, we give one to the Right to manage as they see fit and we give the other one to the Left and let them run it the way they think is best. The post that you just made gives us a good idea as to how the Right Earth is going to end up, so my question to you is to describe how the Left Earth is going to be considering that the Left that is managing it can do whatever they want to do without being held back or blocked by the Right anymore.

Is there still going to be inequality on the Left Earth, is everyone going to be living a simpler life with a smaller carbon foot print or are there still going to be some rich people who are going to indulge themselves in the luxuries and excesses of life by owning huge mansions, private jets and yachts, and multiple luxury cars. How much each person is going to be allowed to consume every year beyond the minimum necessities of life. And to expand this beyond the Environment how is the Left Earth going to look like when it comes to social issues such as having a minimum standard of living that includes having adequate and timely shelter, healthcare, education, and food as a basic human right.

I really am interested to know how the Left Earth is going to look like and managed in case I want to move there.

I can tell you it wouldn't have people like this:

Old Man Yells at Windmills

President Trump renewed his attacks on wind energy and vowed to cure cancer during a rally in Ohio
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/trump-windmills-cancer-cure-yelling-866587/


Donald Trump's ridiculous link between cancer, wind turbines
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-...icans-dismiss-trumps-windmill-and-cancer-cla/

President Trump Says Wind Turbines Cause Cancer. 99% of Iowans Disagree
https://time.com/5649313/trump-wind-cancer-iowa/

Fact Check: No Link Between Wind Farms and Cancer Like Trump Claimed
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ct-check-trump-is-tilting-at-wind-farms-again

----------
So if we have any more wildfires, we only have 1 person to blame. Trump. Because Trump knows the solution and he could fund the raking of forests

He's trying

 

[Cal2]

we still can't come up with a plan to manage this little Planet of ours so that there wouldn't be so much damage, destruction, and pain and suffering going on.

We have a plan, passed down to us - Do unto others as you'd have others do unto you; justice for all; ….. .

Problem is that plan doesn't suit well the ones making most of the current plans. : )

I really am interested to know how the Left Earth is going to look like and be managed in case I want to move there.

I've sometimes said I consider myself a Chironian, who happened to end up on the wrong planet.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/849484.Voyage_from_Yesteryear

 

[oldtimer]

I asked an honest question, but unfortunately my question wasn’t or couldn’t be answered because no one dares to tell the truth that is at the core of all of our problems, so I answer myself:

Ideally we'll have two Planets that are healthy, happy, and thriving regardless of who is running them, Left, Right, Middle or any other ideology or system no matter how different doesn’t matter, what matters is the end results. Capitalism, Communism, Socialism, Fascism, Fundamentalism and the many other competing “isms” that are out there are all man made and are of no consequence if they fail to save Humanity and this Planet from the doom. While people are busy fighting (verbally and literally) as to who’s system is better the Humanity and this Planet are sliding closer towards catastrophe. So as smart and intelligent as everyone claims to be the first thing that they need to do is to break away from all the different mindsets that have brought Humanity and this Planet to the point of destruction and extinction. The problem at the core of this issue is that no one regardless of their political affiliations or ideologies is willing to change their attitude in a way that can lead to a solution towards preventing the catastrophe that is ahead both for Humanity and this Planet. So everyone goes to the Summits and the different conferences and talks about the Environment and all the pain and suffering that people around the World are being subjected to and for a while they feel good thinking that just because they have talked about these problems that everything is going to be okay now, and so everyone goes back to their big mansions, private jets and yachts, and the many luxury cars that they own and forget that if they are not willing to make any meaningful changes in their lifestyles and mindsets that all that talk in the Summit is not going to do anyone any good.

So we really are at the point in history that is going to determine the destiny of Humanity and this Planet and so either we are willing and able to change our lifestyles and mindsets and adjust our attitudes so that we can work together to save ourselves and our Planet or that we continue fooling ourselves thinking that we are right and everyone else is wrong and that we need to get them before they can get us and meanwhile Mother Nature is going to get all of us !

IMO

 

[Cal2]

So we really are at the point in history that is going to determine the destiny of Humanity and this Planet and so either we are willing and able to change our lifestyles and mindsets and adjust our attitudes so that we can work together to save ourselves and our Planet or that we continue fooling ourselves thinking that we are right and everyone else is wrong and that we need to get them before they can get us and meanwhile Mother Nature is going to get all of us !

My favourite saying when it comes to behaviour modification is 'Only pain and suffering will change most behaviour - so let the pain and suffering begin'. That's been the case time and time again. I'm thinking it's the more likely of scenarios in this case. How far that pain and suffering has to go before enough needed changes are made....

Humankind may not thrive as well in the future, but it should survive. Unless maybe AI does us in. &/or maybe something like a very big comet.

 

[Cal2]

For what it's worth:

Greta Thunberg was right: There is an alternative to 'eternal economic growth': Don Pittis
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/top...-growth-don-pittis/ar-AAHSbre?ocid=spartandhp

 

[oldtimer]

My favourite saying when it comes to behaviour modification is 'Only pain and suffering will change most behaviour - so let the pain and suffering begin'. That's been the case time and time again. I'm thinking it's the more likely of scenarios in this case. How far that pain and suffering has to go before enough needed changes are made....

Humankind may not thrive as well in the future, but it should survive. Unless maybe AI does us in. &/or maybe something like a very big comet.

You are forgetting about one important factor which is TIME.


Behavior modification as you describe happens very gradually and might take a lot of time that the World no longer has, and also if we are going to treat people as if they are animals in the zoo then what’s the point of having all these Summits and Conferences. A better way is to appeal to everyone's sense of logic and intelligence so that they themselves can arrive at the conclusion that the only way out of this mess is through having a new mindset that allows positive and constructive cooperation between all the different political affiliations and parties. IMO

 

[Cal2]

You are forgetting about one important factor which is TIME.

Behavior modification as you describe happens very gradually and might take a lot of time that the World no longer has, and also if we are going to treat people as if they are animals in the zoo then what’s the point of having all these Summits and Conferences. A better way is to appeal to everyone's sense of logic and intelligence so that they themselves can arrive at the conclusion that the only way out of this mess is through having a new mindset that allows positive and constructive cooperation between all the different political affiliations and parties. IMO

Behaviour modification can happen fast, depending on the type and severity of the pain and suffering - eg. toddler burning hand on stove likely won't touch it again, or someone who smokes and can't quit, is able to quit the day after they have a heart attack. Same with animals.

I'll watch for logic appealing to intelligence that is working to turn this climate crisis thing. I'm thinking there'll be some 'emotional pain and suffering threats' thrown in, as well, like Greta did in her speeches. In the end, that could be what mostly motivates most of those you bring up. But we'll see.​

 

[oldtimer]

Behaviour modification can happen fast, depending on the type and severity of the pain and suffering - eg. toddler burning hand on stove likely won't touch it again, or someone who smokes and can't quit, is able to quit the day after they have a heart attack. Same with animals.

I'll watch for logic appealing to intelligence that is working to turn this climate crisis thing. I'm thinking there'll be some 'emotional pain and suffering threats' thrown in, as well, like Greta did in her speeches. In the end, that could be what mostly motivates most of those you bring up. But we'll see.​

Unfortunately the Elites are insulated against any pain and suffering that you can inflict on them, the only pain and suffering that they might be able to understand is going to be when we have a total Social and Environmental collapse and by then it's not going to make any difference anymore. At this time the only way out is to convince everyone that it is in their own best interest to change the lifestyles and mindsets that have brought Humanity and this Planet to the point of extinction. So perhaps you need to change your mindset too of even considering inflicting pain and suffering on others as an option. Even with animals positive reinforcement and encouragement along with compassionate and humane treatment, control, and containment have produced better results than the methods used in the past, anyway you want to be part of the solution not part of the problem, don't you.

By the way you and JB never said how things are going to be on the Left Earth.

 

[JB Lions]

By the way you and JB never said how things are going to be on the Left Earth.

Nice.

I think sometimes you're just not being a realist on the subject, with this:

"So we really are at the point in history that is going to determine the destiny of Humanity and this Planet and so either we are willing and able to change our lifestyles and mindsets and adjust our attitudes so that we can work together to save ourselves and our Planet or that we continue fooling ourselves thinking that we are right and everyone else is wrong and that we need to get them before they can get us and meanwhile Mother Nature is going to get all of us !"

How do you work with an anti-science denier? You saw the post I made about Trump. All the stuff he's said and done. You can't work with somebody like that, his master is the fossil fuel companies. Real change will be on the governmental level. First step is to vote people like that out, not put them in positions of power in the first place. Intellectual lazy types. Science seems to be a real dirty word under the Republican Party.

 

[oldtimer]

Nice.

I think sometimes you're just not being a realist on the subject, with this:

"So we really are at the point in history that is going to determine the destiny of Humanity and this Planet and so either we are willing and able to change our lifestyles and mindsets and adjust our attitudes so that we can work together to save ourselves and our Planet or that we continue fooling ourselves thinking that we are right and everyone else is wrong and that we need to get them before they can get us and meanwhile Mother Nature is going to get all of us !"

How do you work with an anti-science denier? You saw the post I made about Trump. All the stuff he's said and done. You can't work with somebody like that, his master is the fossil fuel companies. Real change will be on the governmental level. First step is to vote people like that out, not put them in positions of power in the first place. Intellectual lazy types. Science seems to be a real dirty word under the Republican Party.

I am preaching to all sides,

At the end there is no escaping the problems that Humanity and this Planet are facing. Perhaps this is a test by Mother Nature to see if Humans are worth keeping before we are allowed to expand our presence to other Planets.

 

[JB Lions]

I am preaching to all sides,

At the end there is no escaping the problems that Humanity and this Planet are facing. Perhaps this is a test by Mother Nature to see if Humans are worth keeping before we are allowed to expand our presence to other Planets.

If 1 side is listening to the money, they're not really going to care about your preaching. Everything I posted earlier is true:

Trump drops by United Nations climate summit

"the president listened intently for about 10 minutes before departing for his religious freedom event."

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/un-cli...-at-start-of-united-nations-general-assembly/

---------------------
Donald Trump's story on skipping the G7 climate meeting makes no sense

"The President had scheduled meetings and bilaterals with Germany and India, so a senior member of the Administration attended in his stead," press secretary Stephanie Grisham said by way of explanation for Trump's absence..............

"As CNN's Jim Sciutto pointed out, both German Chancellor Angela Merkel and Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi were in the climate change meeting."

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/26/politics/donald-trump-g7-climate-change/index.html

Skipped the meeting entirely, sits in for 10 minutes, for the reason I gave. His master are the fossil fuel companies. He has no interest in doing anything positive for the environment. Jobs at all cost. You're not going to flip him.

So the question I pose to you, how do you get past that, work with people like that. You can't, you have to remove them, they're in the way of any progress.