legal Domain Front Running by Lumis.com

[silentg]

Lumis was trying to broker Kosmos(.)com without domain owner's knowledge and the owner got with UDRP. @jberryhill represented the owner and won. Owner still lost out on the legal fees.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1569695070462386180

Thanks to @GeorgeK for posting it on Twitter.

 

[GeorgeK]

By the way, I had called them out on this in 2021, too, see the thread on Twitter at:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1394237344107175938

for example, or:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1394217334546616322

(you have to scroll up in the Twitter thread, to see the context, etc.)

 

[GeorgeK]

Here's another UDRP involving approve.com, where it appears there was unauthorized brokerage by an unidentified broker:

https://www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/search/text.jsp?case=D2021-3398

Respondent states that Complainant has also submitted evidence of an inquiry from a domain name broker to Complainant in 2019 concerning the Domain Name. This inquiry was not made by Brian Cartmell (former owner of the Domain Name), and there is no evidence in the record as to whether Cartmell was aware that this particular inquiry had been made. In fact, it is contrary to Cartmell’s sworn testimony that he did not become aware of Complainant until this year.

If anyone knows the owner of the respondent in that case (Shlomy Amsalem), perhaps they can find out exactly which broker did that.

 

[akos]

No such thing as front running. Your domain is public knowledge, get over it.

I would love to see how you would react in a reversed situation when one of your high-value domains is being dragged into a legal battle due to spammers selling your things which they don't own or haven't received permission from you to sell.

 

[jberryhill]

1. This specific matter aside, there are all sorts of people who can send emails to anyone, so one takeaway is to have a definite statement about what communications are, or are not, authorized by the domain registrant or an exclusive broker.

2. Lumis helpfully provided all of the communications, only a portion of which were presented in the complaint. The communications were repeatedly clear that they were acting independently.


That said, as pointed out above, a prospective complainant who is looking for anything they can use in a UDRP proceeding will certainly try to use communications like this, and will also use social media connections, conference attendance, or anything else, in order to suggest some sort of relationship between the domain registrant and the third-party domain acquisition proposal. In this instance, the Complainant argued:

You will also notice that they used the registrar privacy service - applied to zillions of domains - in order to draw a connection (and a "pattern of bad faith registration")

Have I mentioned again lately how much I'm not a fan of privacy services?

 

[bmugford]

It’s a publicly known asset. If you own io.com how can you stop me from trying to sell it? It’s beneficial to you ultimately.

You cannot stop me from trying to sell your domain and that’s a fact. You might not like it but that’s tough shit.

Since you appear to believe that anyone offering anyone else's domain to a third party without permission is a beneficial, how about this -

Would it be beneficial to others if I gathered a list of premium domains, that were not listed for sale, then hired 100 low quality employees to spam third parties about them?

All that is likely to do is create legal issues and burn bridges with potential buyers in the future.

Brad

 

[bmugford]

No such thing as front running. Your domain is public knowledge, get over it.

A lot of things are public knowledge. It doesn't mean you should offer someone else's property for sale without permission.

Brad

 

[bmugford]

I contacted Lumis via their contact form regarding the Kosmos.com dispute and linked to this thread.

I figured I would bring this to their attention so they can clarify their business, and what went on in this case, if they choose to.

I hope we can get their thoughts on this.

Thanks,
Brad

 

[Lox]

Lumis was trying to broker Kosmos(.)com without domain owner's knowledge and the owner got with UDRP. @jberryhill represented the owner and won. Owner still lost out on the legal fees.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1569695070462386180

Thanks to @GeorgeK for posting it on Twitter.

#38

Regards

 

[Lox]

It’s a typo.

English, yes. In other languages, s.a. German, Slavic, ... east, nope.

COSMOS (english language)

 

[bmugford]

It’s not worthless imo but it’s not worth this thread. Front running a typo isn’t worth creating a thread.

This thread is more related to the business model of Lumis, not the specific domain in question.

Brad

 

[Future Sensors]

An archaic form of cosmos. You know what archaic means?

Keith. You definitely have to learn about branding.

Please start with articles like these brands with 'typos'.

https://sjdaccountancy.com/blog/five-business-names-inspired-by-greek-mythology/

http://greekgodsparadise.com/2021/07/25/brands-greek-mythology-logos-names/

 

[bmugford]

I hear you and just disagree. Please pitch my domains.

My question would be to Lumis, what commission were expecting if any?

That's fine. You can disagree.

However, let's say I owned a LL.com. Something that is potentially worth millions.
I have made the choice to not list it for sale.

Is it appropriate for a third party to just start pitching that to a bunch of other parties, many that likely own TM for the term in various fields...without permission.

I don't think so. The potential damage they could cause is massive.
That is certainly not a benefit to the domain owner.

Brad

 

[bmugford]

Your assets are publicly known dude. You’re on the wrong side here.

You are dodging my question too. If I brought you a big offer for your .us you’d take it. That’s a fact so let’s not play games.

Sorry, but I think you are on the wrong side.

Just because ownership is public does not mean another party can offer your property for sale without permission. It is really an irrelevant point quite honestly.

I don't want people pitching my domains without permission. If they do they are likely to get a C&D.
If I incur damages because of it, I will seek further remedy.

The last thing I want is an army of low level amateurs spamming my domains to third parties.

That is the inevitable end game if this behavior is accepted...unqualified people pitching domains with no skills and no skin in the game. What could go wrong?

Brad

 

[trelgor]

Well, since you ask:

Imagine that I have a business, and I've obtained a domain name for it. Let's call it my.cooltld. I'm in the early stages of building up the business and the brand.

Then someone announces on the Internet that "if you're interested in obtaining the domain my.cooltld, we can help you to negotiate with the seller". That gives the impression that the owner of the specific domain my.cooltld is open to selling it. And that in turn gives the impression that I'm not very committed to my new business venture, and that impression is not good for my brand and my business.

I'm with Brad here. I think that's out of order.



For some domainers, the only reason domains exist is to make money for people buying and selling them; they don't have any other purpose. This kind of domainer doesn't have any sense of responsibility to people who are impacted by his business dealings. That may be legal (or not, and that may simply depend on how good the lawyer is who is making the case). But to my mind, it's not professional or ethical.

I help businesses buy domains from other active businesses all the time. I think I have not done them wrong, or forced them to sell. They are capable, adult human beings that can make business decisions just fine.

They are capable enough I would say to also realize that if a person contacts you about buying something they do not own, it is not to be regarded as a purchase offer but something else.

It is unfortunate that such correspondence can be used against the domain owner party, that may have had nothing to do with it, "in a court of law". But maybe "the court of law" is the issue in that case.

I think the key here will have to come down to semantics.

Of course you can do outreach and sell your general brokerage services. Of course you can target that outreach as precise as you can. Of course you can even say that you can try to help acquire a specific name, worded right, in the right context.

What you shouldn't say if you value your credibility, and industry status, is "I am selling" or "I can get XXXXX.com for you" or "I know this seller" or "I have a lead" and so on. Anything that would let on that you represent the owner.

Because unless you really do, you are misrepresenting fact, and could potentially increase the risk to harm the owner - and shoot yourself in the foot in the process.

IMO.

 

[GeorgeK]

Cosmos.com is a potential million dollar domain. Kosmos is also great.

There are 160 million .com. It is not some zero sum game where only one domain has value.

Brad

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Lox]

It’s not worthless imo but it’s not worth this thread. Front running a typo isn’t worth creating a thread.

Front-running an EMD

 

[bmugford]

So it’s worth $1k in an attempt to steal? Not an exact science for valuation purposes.

Well, there have been (2) complaints filed involving (6) panelists.
The cost for a (3) member panel is $4K.

You have $8K spent on the UDRP panels alone.
That does not include lawyer fees, which are probably in that range or higher.

Brad

 

[Future Sensors]

Cosmos is English. What language is Kosmos?

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kosmos

I hope it's available in your country.

 

[bmugford]

You wouldn’t recommend that.

Keith, no offense but you are extremely close minded on this.

In this field it helps to have an open mind and be willing to learn.
No one knows everything.

This domain clearly has strong value. It has been illustrated in many ways by several people.

It is not simply a "typo".
The term is contained in thousands of domains.
The term is used by almost countless companies.

If you are too stubborn to see that, fine.

I think it would be more useful to understand why it has value than just reject it.
I personally would use some of the metrics provided by veterans in your bag of tools.

Either way, it is your choice.

Brad

 

[bmugford]

Simple case here -

When things go south, it’s a big to do. When it benefits you, sweet deal!

Is the company that initiated the contact without permission willing to shoulder the expense when it goes tits up? If not, they definitely should not be engaging in this behavior.

This is just shifting the liability to the domain owner when things go wrong, through no fault of their own.

Brad

 

[bmugford]

Really?

You’ve never had an offer from a Godaddy rep for a domain that wasn’t listed for sale?

I’ve had plenty.

Point is, your crazy to turn away people that want to sell your assets.

Sure. A party that contacted GoDaddy regarding interest in my domain is not the same as GoDaddy or some other broker randomly pitching my unlisted domain to third parties without permission.

That is a BIG difference.

Brad

 

[Reallybigidea.com]

Kosmos means space in some nonUS countries.

 

[ksusha64]

Kosmos means cosmos in most Slavic and other languages

 

[bmugford]

I would happily pay $15K-$20K for this domain, as an investor. If it is for sale in that range, please contact me.

I will say though I can understand looking at this domain and not seeing obvious high value.
When you actually research it in more detail though, the high value is obvious.

Brad

 

[bmugford]

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kosmos

I hope it's available in your country.

The word is also frequently use in Greek. That is probably where the word came from originally.
The spelling was also used in versions of the Bible.

The point being this is only a "typo" in some languages, and even then for instance in English it still makes a great brand.

In much of the world this is not a typo. It is the correct spelling.

Brad