legal Domain Front Running by Lumis.com

[silentg]

Lumis was trying to broker Kosmos(.)com without domain owner's knowledge and the owner got with UDRP. @jberryhill represented the owner and won. Owner still lost out on the legal fees.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1569695070462386180

Thanks to @GeorgeK for posting it on Twitter.

 

[WhoaDomain.com]

Lumis was trying to broker Kosmos(.)com without domain owner's knowledge and the owner got with UDRP. @jberryhill represented the owner and won. Owner still lost out on the legal fees.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1569695070462386180

Thanks to @GeorgeK for posting it on Twitter.

Lol funny. Had an experience with Lumis a while back. Nothing like this though.

But they do work every angle to make money. Either selling a domain they don’t own without permission or buying a domain on “behalf” of a “buyer” when it fact it’s them doing arbitrage.

I could see how someone with a grudge against another domainer could sabotage them even anonymously. I mean Lumis did not necessarily need to tell the buyer who they really are in this scenario. Pretty scary how something like this could be weaponized against an enemy.

 

[silentg]

Similar thing happened to another domainer. That time it was a guy claiming to be a Sedo broker tried to sell an expired domain from GoDaddy auctions. New owner lost the domain in UDRP.
https://domaingang.com/domain-law/foldr-com-lost-via-the-udrp-process-to-io-registrant/

 

[bmugford]

Well, I have a massive issue with this, if true.

You should not be offering other people's property for sale without permission, disclaimer or not.

This is not like offering a car or some random tangible good for sale. It can really open up Pandora's box when it comes to legal issues, and the registrant is forced to deal with the fallout.

I have seen this issue in the past involving others, and my domains as well.

I have brought this to the ICA. I would like more explanation of what happened here.

Brad

 

[bmugford]

I have had two situations in the past where I purchased expired domains, then shortly after received threats related to a party front running the domain and entering into some agreement with the other party.

I was obviously not a party to the contract. This type of stuff can create a real mess.

Brad

 

[GeorgeK]

In the comment thread on Elliot Silver's blog:

https://domaininvesting.com/rdnh-finding-in-kosmos-com-udrp/#comment-95089

Derek Giordano alleges a similar situation, "They reached out to a company that had a trademark for the very name I had acquired, although a dictionary word."

 

[GeorgeK]

By the way, I had called them out on this in 2021, too, see the thread on Twitter at:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1394237344107175938

for example, or:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1394217334546616322

(you have to scroll up in the Twitter thread, to see the context, etc.)

 

[bmugford]

By the way, I had called them out on this in 2021, too, see the thread on Twitter at:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1394237344107175938

for example, or:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1394217334546616322

(you have to scroll up in the Twitter thread, to see the context, etc.)

How is this creating "opportunities"?

If so then why not reach out to the owner first, and ask them if they want you to represent their domain.

A party should not be offering another parties domain for sale, without their authorization. Period.

In this case it certainly didn't appear to create an opportunity. It seems like it actually created a costly problem for the registrant.

Brad

 

[Keith]

Anyone can try to sell anything. I have no problem here.

As a domain owner, I’d like all of Namepros to pitch my assets. The gray area is how you pitch the asset and to whom. Ultimately, it’s sell, sell, sell, with integrity and good intentions.

 

[bmugford]

Anyone can try to sell anything. I have no problem here.

As a domain owner, I’d like all of Namepros to pitch my assets. The gray area is how you pitch the asset and to whom. Ultimately, it’s sell, sell, sell, with integrity and good intentions.

Really? So I can take someone's domain that is not listed for sale, then pitch it to a major company that owns a TM.

When shit hits the fan, the registrant can deal with the fallout. That is ridiculous.

Domains are not fungible goods. They are all one of a kind assets and come with unique potential legal issues.

This behavior is looking for low hanging fruit, and basically shifting the risk to the registrant... risk they did not sign up for.

Brad

 

[Keith]

Really? So I can take someone else's domain that is not listed for sale, then pitch it to a major company that owns a TM.

When shit hits the fan, the registrant can deal with the fallout. That is ridiculous.

Domains are not fungible goods. They are all one of a kind and come with potential legal issues.

This behavior is looking for low hanging fruit, and basically shifting the risk to the registrant. Risk they did not sign up for.

Brad

On the flip side, if I brought you a $xx,xxx offer for a .us you own, you’d surely take it.

So now the question is, how did you get the offer? Does it matter?

The argument about pitching TM is bs too. If you hire a broker, who do you think they’re going to contact first?!

 

[bmugford]

On the flip side, if I brought you a $xx,xxx offer for a .us you own, you’d surely take it.

So now the question is, how did you get the offer? Does it matter?

The argument about pitching TM is bs too. If you hire a broker, who do you think they’re going to contact first?!

Yes, it does matter. If you hire a broker, you at least have to shoulder some risk.

This appears to be a situation where they initiated contact without the permission of the owner with a third party. How is that the same?

If I found a party pitching my domains in a potentially damaging way I would consider taking legal action against them, including an absolute bare minimum of a C&D.

Brad

 

[GeorgeK]

Here's another UDRP involving approve.com, where it appears there was unauthorized brokerage by an unidentified broker:

https://www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/search/text.jsp?case=D2021-3398

Respondent states that Complainant has also submitted evidence of an inquiry from a domain name broker to Complainant in 2019 concerning the Domain Name. This inquiry was not made by Brian Cartmell (former owner of the Domain Name), and there is no evidence in the record as to whether Cartmell was aware that this particular inquiry had been made. In fact, it is contrary to Cartmell’s sworn testimony that he did not become aware of Complainant until this year.

If anyone knows the owner of the respondent in that case (Shlomy Amsalem), perhaps they can find out exactly which broker did that.

 

[Keith]

Yes, it does matter. If you hire a broken, you at least have to shoulder some risk.

This appears to be a situation where they are initiated contact without the permission of the owner to a third party. How is that the same?

If I found a party pitching my domains in a potentially damaging way I would consider taking legal action against them, including an absolute bare minimum of a C&D.

Brad

Why would you be against your domain being pitched?

I’d gladly have y’all pitch my domains. It’s free outbound.

 

[Keith]

Simple case here -

When things go south, it’s a big to do. When it benefits you, sweet deal!

 

[bmugford]

Why would you be against your domain being pitched?

I’d gladly have y’all pitch my domains. It’s free outbound.

Well, they are my domains. I can decide what I want to do with them.

That is not for a third party to decide. It is not appropriate for an unauthorized third party to be offering domains for sale, domains that might not even be listed for sale, to another party.

If you want to pitch a domain, especially one that is not listed for sale, get the owner's permission first.

I am not really sure why I have to explain this. It can create a large number of issues.

Brad

 

[bmugford]

Simple case here -

When things go south, it’s a big to do. When it benefits you, sweet deal!

Is the company that initiated the contact without permission willing to shoulder the expense when it goes tits up? If not, they definitely should not be engaging in this behavior.

This is just shifting the liability to the domain owner when things go wrong, through no fault of their own.

Brad

 

[Keith]

Well, they are my domains. I can decide what I want to do with them.

That is not for a third party to decide. It is not appropriate for an unauthorized third party to be offering domains for sale, domains that might not even be listed for sale, to another party.

If you want to pitch a domain, especially one that is not listed for sale, get the owner's permission first.

I am not really sure why I have to explain this. It can create a large number of issues.

Brad

The only issue created is when it doesn’t benefit you. Again, a 5-6 figure, unsolicited offer, you’d jump on.

 

[bmugford]

The only issue created is when it doesn’t benefit you. Again, a 5-6 figure, unsolicited offer, you’d jump on.

No, I don't want any party pitching my domains to a third party unless they are authorized to do so. Period.

I bet many others are in the same boat. If I wanted to pitch my domains to third parties, I am perfectly capable of doing so myself.

If a party is pitching premium domains, without the owner's permission, they are creating many potential issues that would not exist otherwise. It is like navigating a minefield, but when they step on on a mine it is the registrant that gets blown up.

Brad

 

[Keith]

No, I don't want any party pitching my domains to a third party unless they are authorized to do so. Period.

I bet many others are in the same boat. If I wanted to pitch my domains to third parties, I am perfectly capable of doing do myself.

Brad

Really?

You’ve never had an offer from a Godaddy rep for a domain that wasn’t listed for sale?

I’ve had plenty.

Point is, your crazy to turn away people that want to sell your assets.

 

[bmugford]

Really?

You’ve never had an offer from a Godaddy rep for a domain that wasn’t listed for sale?

I’ve had plenty.

Point is, your crazy to turn away people that want to sell your assets.

Sure. A party that contacted GoDaddy regarding interest in my domain is not the same as GoDaddy or some other broker randomly pitching my unlisted domain to third parties without permission.

That is a BIG difference.

Brad

 

[Keith]

Sure. A party that contacted GoDaddy regarding interest in my domain is not the same as GoDaddy or some other broker randomly pitching my unlisted domain to third parties without permission.

That is a BIG difference.

Brad

I hear you and just disagree. Please pitch my domains.

My question would be to Lumis, what commission were expecting if any?

 

[bmugford]

I hear you and just disagree. Please pitch my domains.

My question would be to Lumis, what commission were expecting if any?

That's fine. You can disagree.

However, let's say I owned a LL.com. Something that is potentially worth millions.
I have made the choice to not list it for sale.

Is it appropriate for a third party to just start pitching that to a bunch of other parties, many that likely own TM for the term in various fields...without permission.

I don't think so. The potential damage they could cause is massive.
That is certainly not a benefit to the domain owner.

Brad

 

[bmugford]

@GeorgeK

I know you have some really good domains. Do you mind if I pitch them?

JK. Trick question. It looks like I don't need permission!!!

Brad

 

[bmugford]

In the comment thread on Elliot Silver's blog:

https://domaininvesting.com/rdnh-finding-in-kosmos-com-udrp/#comment-95089

Derek Giordano alleges a similar situation, "They reached out to a company that had a trademark for the very name I had acquired, although a dictionary word."

I have dealt with Derek in the past and he is a stand-up guy.

Brad