Can a Epik staff sell your domains in redemption?

[NameFu]

I noticed that Epik.com has been putting my domains that are in redemption for sale using their own landers and their own marketing text. Is this even legal? How can they sell domains that could be recovered within the 30 day redemption period? It just doesn't seem like they're entitled to do that legally until after the redemption period. I asked their customer service 3 days ago and they haven't replied, so I'm asking here. I've never seen this before on any other host.

 

[bmugford]

Since the subject of redemption periods, expired auctions, and warehousing came up in this thread...​

Dynadot “We value our investor customers, which is why we do not want to compete with them or misuse their data”​

https://tldinvestors.com/2022/06/dynadot-transparency-and-trust.html

Transparency​

Many of the most popular registrars today have their own domain portfolios, cherry-picking the best expiring domains for themselves. This causes their customers to lose valuable domains to their own registrar.

“Dynadot has never owned a portfolio of domain names,” explains Dynadot’s Founder and President, Todd Han. “We value our investor customers, which is why we do not want to compete with them or misuse their data.” All expired domains at Dynadot are auctioned off or deleted, and not having a portfolio allows our customers to access all the best domain names.

https://www.dynadot.com/community/blog/dynadot-difference-trust-transparency-stability.html

Kudos to Dynadot. They don't keep their own customer's domains for themselves, and all expired domains go via the same path. There is no need for "usually".

Brad

 

[bmugford]

As explained many times before, the default/standard grace period is 15 days. If folks needs more time, they can:

1. Request a longer grace period

2. Request a domain lay-away where we renew it and hold in escrow.

3. Request a domain loan via our domain lending division, domainequity.com.


In some cases, they may prefer to:

1. Liquidate on NameLiquidate.com

2. Hire an Epik broker to get it sold, or help them improve cash flow via other domain sales.

There are options.

Our objective is to empower. Our mission statement is clear and very literally defines who we are and what we do, not cheesy rhetoric.

Show attachment 216977

So the answer is (15) days then, which is well below industry standards for pretty much every well known registrar.

The "up to" stuff is a very poor way to phrase it.

Now people can decide if they think that (15) days is a reasonable time period for a registrar to attempt to sell their domain and keep the proceeds or simply warehouse their domain and keep it as their own.

To me that is not reasonable at all. If it was any other registrar with the same terms, I would find it unreasonable as well.

You could argue those terms are "empowering" Epik, not the registrants.

Brad

 

[branding]

They actually proactively try to sell expired domains that may, or may not, be recoverable by the registrant.

Last year I put in an enquiry about a domain, not owned by them but the owner was using their landers. No deal was made.

Months later their sales team reached out offering it for sale... Fun fact, the domain was now expired and showing their make offer landing...

 

[bmugford]

I call BS on this, because if a company has a TOS that they can't just violate whenever they please. They clearly state that their redemption period is 30 days. I hate this "oh well...if you let your domain expire then it's your fault if you lose your domain" excuse. That's completely besides the point about a user's right to rescue a domain within 60 days. It's a protocol governed by ICANN right?

I am not really a fan of how registrars have placed themselves as the middle men in the drop process. It was not designed this way by ICANN.

ICANN though has done nothing to reign it in. They have done nothing to stop registrar warehousing like with Network Solutions via "New Ventures Services" and many others.

I have no problem with drop catchers as they actually have to compete on the open market after the domain is made available to everyone. That is how the drop cycle was designed.

If a registrar is offering a domain for sale, while the registrant still has rights to renew the domain, that is shady to me. I don't care who is doing it. It has kind of become accepted practice, but it is not acceptable to me.

Brad

 

[bmugford]

I don't see how this -

Epik Policy (from deleted page) -

Domains that are expired may at our discretion be granted a grace period. By default Epik offers a 15-day grace period starting on the listed expiration date. During this time, the DNS of the domain is updated, thereby disabling the customer’s host records. To restore the prior DNS settings, the customer must renew the domain or complete a transfer the domain to another registrar.

is in compliance with this -

ICANN Policy -

3.1. With the exception of sponsored gTLD registries, all gTLD registries must offer a Redemption Grace Period ("RGP") of 30 days immediately following the deletion of a registration, during which time the deleted registration may be restored at the request of the RAE by the registrar that deleted it. Registrations deleted during a registry's add-grace period, if applicable, should not be subject to the RGP.
3.2. During the Redemption Grace Period, the registry must disable DNS resolution and prohibit attempted transfers of the registration. ICANN-approved bulk transfers and permitted partial bulk transfers are not subject to the prohibition of attempted transfers. The registry must also clearly indicate in its Whois result for the registration that it is in its Redemption Grace Period.
3.3. Registrars must permit the RAE to redeem a deleted registration during RGP (if RGP is offered by the respective registry).

Either way, the thing to understand here is Epik's (15) day RGP is far lower than almost all, if not all, other major registrars in the field.

Also, Epik needs to clearly state their policy in their TOS. The only reference to the (15) day RGP appears to be on that since deleted page.

Brad

 

[bmugford]

Agree. They do auction expired domains after about 35-40 days of expiration I think. But the domains would be still renewable even after the auctions end. And for domains that didn't get bids in auctions they would go "inactive" and recoverable for an additional fee.

Registrant does have choices here.

(15) days is far outside the norm when it comes to popular registrars. I can't think of major ones off the top of my head with anything close to that.

30-40 days does seem more like the standard. Most major registrars are in that range from my experience.

My issue more than anything is an irregular process. GoDaddy, Dynadot, and others follow the same process.
They don't warehouse domains. They all go to auction and end 30-40 day after expiration.

When you start introducing irregularities into the process, like "the registrant is usually notified" that feels far less standardized.

Brad

 

[bmugford]

If a domain is believed to be a domain not worth dropping, the domain may be renewed by Epik. This is always the case for domains that are being leased or rented where sometimes the domain holder does not renew and in order to avoid breaking the lease, Epik will renew the domain and take over as registrant. If the registrant shows up within a reasonable time, sometimes as much as even a year, they can usually pay the renewal and resume their role as lessor.

The wishy washy language of "usually" twice now is troubling to me.
You need a standardized process.

(15) day redemption periods AND warehousing domains is not acceptable to me personally. But, at least you are not denying that is the case.

Brad

 

[bmugford]

Question: How long is the grace period on your registrar?
Answer: Can be up to xx days. But we know that "Can be" is face to face with "Can be not".

Wordplay is not domains not company processes.

Yeah, what matters is the minimum not maximum. "Up to" is for some turd domain no one is interested in buying on the aftermarket.

What is the minimum for a domain that is valuable? That is what matters.
(15) days is unreasonably low IMO.

Brad

 

[NameFu]

Unfortunately I don't have a proof if the domain that I had with them was moved out of my account before 15 days ( grace period ) or after. As I didn't check earlier and just came after 15 days to not find it on my account and they claimed that a backorder was fulfilled after 15 days of expiration. But I believe what you saying can easily happen. After they lied to me and tried to sell my expired domain to me, What's more weird to not believe?

But wait a minute! Are they taking domains immediately after expiration? You've just added some minerals to the sea.

Anyhow I hope you a better experience than mine. Goodluck.

I have email proof of the the complaint and response from staff, but not of how soon the domains were thrown up for sale (I remember it happening *before* the redemption period) ... This was happening for MONTHS. I felt swindled lol....

It's by FAR not the worst registrar though - that title goes to SAV.com forcing you to renew domains you don't want to and denying you a refund. Also denying you the ability to remove your card saying "its a bug we are working on" shameless SCAMMER! Don't touch @Sav.com if you don't already have names with them. I worry that they could just take my names at any time that's how sketchy they are.

 

[karmaco]

My sketchy story with Epik is when I realized they were removing my domains from my account IMMEDIATELY after expiration! They did this for almost a year before onday I realized I lost many domains I had planned to renew late. I complained about it and got an apology with no real explanation ....Just that they fixed the issue and that they were sorry. Some of those domains were put up for sale immediately without any auction that I know of... This pissed me the fuck off to out it frankly... But they did fix the issue after I brought it up....

I would move to a different registrar but Epik has the absolute user friendly domain manager combined with competitive renewal prizes, so I'm sticking with them, for now....

I don’t like the statement about “honorable“ people renew at Epik. How or why someone is at any registrar has nothing to do with honor. Its business. Same for where we sell. These are the kind of cringe statements that make people not like Epik.

Epik likes to step outside the bounds on some things but on this to be fair immediately after exp your name appears on a lander on Dynadot, NameCheap, NameSilo— all of them do this. I do agree it is tacky to have language that its “on offer” immediately at expiration and not wait until redemption is over.

 

[Fadi H]

Let me tell you my story.

If they already answered you their response should be something like your domain(s) were backordered by someone else and you may make an offer if you are interested in buying them back. While in fact they just warehouse the domains they like after 15 days of expiry and put them for sale.

Unless they got better, That's exactly how they treated a similar case with me previously.

See their policy:

"After the discretionary grace period the customer’s domain is deleted from their account. In most cases, deleted domains may be recoverable for up to a total of 69 days after the expiration date. In the case, where the domain are still eligible to be recovered a restoration fee is assessed."

Guess what happened with one of my domain names after 15 days of expiry, They warehoused it and claimed that someone has placed a backorder on it and the backorder was fulfilled. In the other hand they tried to push me to make an offer as a solution to get the domain back. After that they turned to be lying and they just warehoused the domain and the owner himself confirmed it publicly. ( Said it was an internal backorder )

What should've been the normal process? As the backorder story was fake I should've been able to recover the domain according to their policy as the domain was still under their control and was just a little over 20 days after the expiration date.

As a pathetic try to save the situation the owner of Epik went against Epik policy, Took ownership of the domain while it should've been still recoverable, Decided to get it auctioned and planned what to do with the proceeds.

Refer here for details :
https://www.namepros.com/threads/this-is-how-i-lost-my-domain-name-at-epik-com.1262311/

S/o Dynadot. One of the best registrars. No shady stories and no one will move the domain out of your account after expiration up to 40 days and even after that you may still have a chance to renew it.

 

[bmugford]

This topic has been addressed countless times in other threads but grace periods at Epik can be up to 35 days. We send up to 7 renewal notices -- the customer can adjust how many notices they want in their notification settings. During grace period, no backorders are filled and no offers can be accepted. On day 44 of the expiry cycle, the domains go to Daily Diamonds:

So the grace period can be up to 35 days. That doesn't say much.

What is the shortest in can be? That is more important.

For instance, what is the first day after expiration that Epik can offer the domain for sale and keep the proceeds, or just warehouse the domain because they see value in it?

Brad

 

[bmugford]

Can you point me to where in the TOS or "Domain Name Registration Agreement" that the (15) day redemption period is referred to directly? I can't seem to find it.

Epik.com Universal Terms of Service
https://www.epik.com/terms

Epik.com Domain Name Registration Agreement
https://www.epik.com/registration

There is also a reference to another file, which does not seem to exist -

5.5 Term and Grace Period​

The term of this Agreement shall continue in full force and effect as long as you have any domain name registered through Epik or as long as you are employing any Service(s). You agree that you will not transfer any domain name registered through Epik to another domain name registrar during the first sixty (60) calendar days from its initial registration date.. All domain registrations are final. Upon expiration of your domain, Epik may at its own discretion provide a grace period during which the domain can be renewed. After the grace period, the domain, if eligible, may be recovered via the domain redemption process. For more information, see - Expired Registration Recovery Policy

That link to the "Expired Registration Recovery Policy" returns a 404 error.

 

[br1ll1on]

@Rob Monster why is in-store credit withdrawal not allowed? I recently deposited some funds for some service at epik , epik couldn't deliver the service, a refund for sent to my in-store credit , when I contacted epik's support on the withdrawal, i was told "Epik does not allow withdrawal of in-store credit" WHY???

 

[bmugford]

S/o Dynadot. One of the best registrars. No shady stories and no one will move the domain out of your account after expiration up to 40 days and even after that you may still have a chance to renew it.

I like Dynadot, but in fairness their expired auctions occur while registrants can still reclaim the domain.
I believe it is after a far longer time than (15) days though. That does seem unreasonably short.

I am also not aware of Dynadot warehousing domains. Everything I have seen was standardized and went to auction using the same process.

Brad

 

[Fadi H]

I like Dynadot, but in fairness their expired auctions occur while registrants can still reclaim the domain.
I believe it is after a far longer time than (15) days though. That does seem unreasonably short.

Brad

Agree. They do auction expired domains after about 35-40 days of expiration I think. But the domains would be still renewable even after the auctions end. And for domains that didn't get bids in auctions they would go "inactive" and recoverable for an additional fee.

Registrant does have choices here.

 

[VadimK]

Guys, long story short. All these renewal/redemption/grace periods depend on registrars, big time. Do not let your valuable domains expire, set auto renewals or numerous alarms (if undecided) when close to exp period.

Good luck!

 

[NameFu]

Guys, long story short. All these renewal/redemption/grace periods depend on registrars, big time. Do not let your valuable domains expire, set auto renewals or numerous alarms (if undecided) when close to exp period.

Good luck!

I call BS on this, because if a company has a TOS that they can't just violate whenever they please. They clearly state that their redemption period is 30 days. I hate this "oh well...if you let your domain expire then it's your fault if your registrar sells your domain during redemption" excuse. That's completely besides the point about a user's right to rescue a domain within 60 days. It's a protocol governed by ICANN right?

Epik has still not replied to my question.

@robmonster you mind helping me to understand your redemption policy, because I find this a bit confusing.

Here's an example - WebXRCoin.com. It's a domain that has been expired for less than 60 days and is in redemption. Yet for the last 2 years you guys have been putting landers on domains like this saying they're for sale... If we have 30 days to recover our domains why is Epik throwing custom sales landers on domains in redemption? Seems ethically wrong, but I want to give you guys the opportunity to explain befure accusing you of anything.

Thanks in advance!

 

[bmugford]

During grace period, the registrar is the one funding the renewal -- the fees are advanced to the registry until the domain is renewed by the registrant or deleted by the registrar.

The registrar has very little skin in the game on expired domains. If the domain ends up dropping you get a refund from the registry, so it is essentially just freerolling when it comes to offering it for sale.

If an offer does come in, and we believe it is legitimate, the registrant is usually notified. The honorable registrants will renew on Epik and if they do choose to sell it, hopefully do it on Epik.

I would love to know what "usually" notified means. In what situation would the registrant not be notified exactly?

I am quite sure that the general code of conduct at Epik falls comfortably under the "do unto others" category. The folks that assert otherwise almost certainly don't actually use Epik.

Yeah, I don't think this is an Epik problem exactly. Many registrars attempt to sell expired domains, when the registrant still has rights to renew the domain. Others simply warehouse domains they want and keep them.

It would be nice to have more standardization between registrars. ICANN designed a drop cycle where the domain eventually deletes. It is the registrars who put themselves in the middle for financial gains and lead to a lot of this confusion.

Brad

 

[bmugford]

Let me tell you my story.

If they already answered you their response should be something like your domain(s) were backordered by someone else and you may make an offer if you are interested in buying them back. While in fact they just warehouse the domains they like after 15 days of expiry and put them for sale.

Is that true? Is Epik warehousing certain domains?
@Rob Monster

15 days is one of if not the shortest timeframes I have seen, especially for legacy extensions.
Is that true?

Brad

 

[Fadi H]

30-40 days does seem more like the standard.

Exactly, I've never seen the 15 ( days ) thing on the registrars I've been dealing with. Else I probably wouldn't have lost that domain and renewed earlier.

 

[Fadi H]

Question: How long is the grace period on your registrar?
Answer: Can be up to xx days. But we know that "Can be" is face to face with "Can be not".

Wordplay is in domains not company processes.

 

[Fadi H]

Yeah, what matters is the minimum not maximum. "Up to" is for some turd domain no one is interested in buying on the aftermarket.

What is the minimum for a domain that is valuable? That is what matters.
(15) days is unreasonably low IMO.

Brad

Exactly, "Up to" is the same as "most cases" in their TOS.

For valuable domains it's a different matter and here is where shady processes may occur.

 

[NameFu]

According to ICANN
https://icannwiki.org/Expired_Regis...CANN put into,accidental loss of domain names.

1. Redemption Grace Period
   

   3.1. With the exception of sponsored gTLD registries, all gTLD registries must offer a Redemption Grace Period ("RGP") of 30 days immediately following the deletion of a registration, during which time the deleted registration may be restored at the request of the RAE by the registrar that deleted it. Registrations deleted during a registry's add-grace period, if applicable, should not be subject to the RGP.
   3.2. During the Redemption Grace Period, the registry must disable DNS resolution and prohibit attempted transfers of the registration. ICANN-approved bulk transfers and permitted partial bulk transfers are not subject to the prohibition of attempted transfers. The registry must also clearly indicate in its Whois result for the registration that it is in its Redemption Grace Period.
   3.3. Registrars must permit the RAE to redeem a deleted registration during RGP (if RGP is offered by the respective registry).