What side of illegal immigration are you on?

[movingconcierge]

Caution
Does this video make you mad because of what happens to the US post office or does it make you mad because the people videotaping get so mad at the protesters?

Strong language caution.

Tough issue, but should be obvious from this video that it's coming to a head pronto. I've been eating coffee and watching these for about 30 hours now. I'm depressed and disappointed and hopping f'ing mad.

If you're not from the US, how would you feel if this were happening in your country?

 

[dgridley]

Only the Men In Black know for sure and they ain't tellin'!

Personally I think that estimate is low..

it is estimated that there are 12 MILLION illegal aliens in the US.

 

[Ixix]

Thanks for your opinions. I think perhaps that it might be an elusive subject to discuss because no one really mentioned ILLEGAL immigration in any great detail. I think that is where the disconnect lies.....I don't think anyone denies the importance of LEGAL immigrants. It is the people who cut in line and take what is legally not theirs.

Legal/illegal....it's just a matter of wording on some document somewhere.

A while back it was legal to own several slaves, illegal for women to vote, and fine and dandy force children into mine shafts for a penny a week.

It doesnt matter if it's right or wrong....if it's moral or immoral, it's a matter of legal vs. illegal.....which is why 99% off the law is broken, After all, i'm , a majority of laws are written by people that don't really have a clue as to what's going on....

that the first 'illegal' immigrants weren't to friendly to the true 'native' american, don't worry...I doubt that the hispanics will be bring over small pox laced blankets.

 

[dgridley]

Good point..

And don't get me wrong.. I have nothing against Hispanics or any other ethnic group so long as they abide by the rules and enter the country legally. I'd love to own beachfront property in Brazil but it requires adherence to certain rules.. just like here.

that the first 'illegal' immigrants weren't to friendly to the true 'native' american, don't worry...I doubt that the hispanics will be bring over small pox laced blankets.

 

[labrocca]

I am sure a vast majority of illegal immigrants would come here legally IF IT WAS POSSIBLE. Often the paperwork, hassle, wait, and delays are something people can't put up with. I have seen first-hand the bureaucracy of the immigration laws here. It's insane. I know people that took the legal route. It's a bonafide nightmare of lost paperwork, incompetent employees, and extreme hassle.

Instead these people should be legally checked in at the border and kept tabs on. Give them a 2 year pass to meet certain requirements to stay. If they meet the requirements let them go to the next step for another 2-3 years..then if that's passed they can get a permanent status here. Each step would be in the direction of immigration such as language skills. They would do this for the reward of U.S. benefits (which is why they come here to begin with).

We will NEVER keep these people from coming in. No matter the wall as there is still an ocean. The point about the 2 previous amnesties only prove that the current immigration laws don't mean jack. If we placed the same effort into integration as we do enforcement this wouldn't be an issue. We should sign a treaty with Mexico to OPEN the border both ways. Americans should be able to move to Mexico with certain rights (such as land ownership). I would love to buy some cheap Mexican waterfront ocean property for vacations.

Anyways..those are my ideas...what I hate to see is complaints about the problem yet offering no solutions.

 

[movingconcierge]

I am sure a vast majority of illegal immigrants would come here legally IF IT WAS POSSIBLE. Often the paperwork, hassle, wait, and delays are something people can't put up with[...]

It appears to be possible as there is quite a number of people who do accomplish what seems to be the impossible. I'd like to do some things that are illegal or that would just be easier than following the law, but then I would be an anarchist.

Instead these people should be legally checked in at the border and kept tabs on[...]

Is this a solution you offer? I notice you insinuate that people who debate this issue offer no solutions.

Anyways..those are my ideas...what I hate to see is complaints about the problem yet offering no solutions[...]

Well, my solution is do not offer amnesty and enforce the laws on the books. We can integrate the immigrants that come here legally, by the laws on the books now.

The point about the 2 previous amnesties only prove that the current immigration laws don't mean jack. If we placed the same effort into integration as we do enforcement this wouldn't be an issue[...]

Again, the reason why the existing immigration laws don't work is that they are circumvented and then amnesty is given when the numbers reach the millions. It is a vicious catch 22 - we spend the immigration money on stopping ILLEGAL immigration and therefore LEGAL immigration takes longer, therefore more illegal immigration. If we could stop illegal immigration by focusing on it for a few long hard years, then maybe we could get to higher levels of immigration support.

Think of Maslow's hierarchy of needs....safety and security, then planning, and finally self actualization. We must get beyond safety and security before we can plan and realize a greater society.

BTW: here is a TIME magazine story that has some decent and reputable info.

 

[Ixix]

Hmmm, i thought this topic sounded familiar....here's what i thought about in march....


http://www.namepros.com/the-break-room/181091-who-is-really-illegal-united-states.html#post1166858

 

[movingconcierge]

If our government really wanted to solve this problem, they should #1 make the immigration process easier and quicker.

-->Can't because all extra manpower and funding goes towards stopping the flow of aliens.

#2 make and enforce laws that punishes employers that exploit illegals.

-->on the books. ICE is the enforcement branch of the INS.

#3 create a 'grace' period that allows existing illegals to apply for citizenship w/out consequence.

-->That's called amnesty

BTW, here is a rather pointed, but illustrative video about the issue. Its a bit dramatic, but the images are pretty shocking.

 

[labrocca]

Ok well what's the excuse when the first amnesty was given? If amnesty is the problem then what happened to create those first group of immigrants?

Also it's not a solution if it's not realistic. Which your solution is to enforce the rules in the book. So are you saying we should round up 15-20 million Mexicans and ship them out? Yeah..that will work. If you think laws are the solution then if amnesty becomes law is the problem solved?

We can integrate the immigrants that come here legally, by the laws on the books now.

The current immigration laws are inadequate. THEY are what are causing the problem. Congress may spend years arguing immigration reform but it gets nowhere. Instead every now a then a general amnesty is declared to brush it under the rug and for Congress to move forward. That's what has happened in the past and it will happen again.

Again ....I ask you...what is your problem with the immigrants and what evidence do you provide that these illegal aliens are more harmful than good. Because I can certainly dig up enough positive evidence to support immigrants...even illegal ones.

Laws are crap if they don't make sense. What makes sense is the American system that laws can change to be suitable for the times.

I accept that many are against the illegal immigrants for various reasons..I have yet to find one person that has given me an argument beyond culture changes. Even that can't be proven. So there will be more taco stands...big deal. Does Pizza threaten your way of life too?

BTW..I watched the video..not very shocking imho. It's equavilent to the 60's civil rights movement imho. Very similar in nature...people just wanting their freedom and to be equal in our society. Those stats are the negative stats of course but none of the positive ones like production value.

Here is a good page that explains the debate honestly.

http://www.newsbatch.com/immigration.htm

 

[movingconcierge]

Again ....I ask you...what is your problem with the immigrants and what evidence do you provide that these illegal aliens are more harmful than good.

Heeerrrre you go...oh, and this one toooo

 

[labrocca]

I already commented about the video. Also I can't read the Time article...maybe you have to subscribe or something.

That video doesn't prove that illegals are more harmful than good to our society. Anyone can pull out negatives about anything. The video is one-sided propaganda.

 

[dgridley]

You make some good points.. makes one think..

I am sure a vast majority of illegal immigrants would come here legally IF IT WAS POSSIBLE. Often the paperwork, hassle, wait, and delays are something people can't put up with. I have seen first-hand the bureaucracy of the immigration laws here. It's insane. I know people that took the legal route. It's a bonafide nightmare of lost paperwork, incompetent employees, and extreme hassle.

Instead these people should be legally checked in at the border and kept tabs on. Give them a 2 year pass to meet certain requirements to stay. If they meet the requirements let them go to the next step for another 2-3 years..then if that's passed they can get a permanent status here. Each step would be in the direction of immigration such as language skills. They would do this for the reward of U.S. benefits (which is why they come here to begin with).

We will NEVER keep these people from coming in. No matter the wall as there is still an ocean. The point about the 2 previous amnesties only prove that the current immigration laws don't mean jack. If we placed the same effort into integration as we do enforcement this wouldn't be an issue. We should sign a treaty with Mexico to OPEN the border both ways. Americans should be able to move to Mexico with certain rights (such as land ownership). I would love to buy some cheap Mexican waterfront ocean property for vacations.

Anyways..those are my ideas...what I hate to see is complaints about the problem yet offering no solutions.

 

[DN Tycoon]

First off you do not mess with the American flag period...the flag is a symbol of our freedom and all those who fought to protect us and our freedom. I do not expect people from other than Americans to appreciate the flag as we do because they are not Americans. The fact that they took down the American and replaced it with a Mexican is down right disrespectful and they damn lucky something serious did not happen like an all out riot.

This whole immigration thing is out of control, only now have the Americans opened up their eyes and seeing how we are slowly being over run by illegal immigrants. The simple fact is if you crossed over into this country without going through proper channels then you are illegal, those who crossed into this country through the proper channels are more than welcome. As usual the ignorant people of the world including the media have twisted, turned and combined everything in to negative propaganda instead of sticking to what is really going on...illegal immigration!

Those that say those who are illegal should be left alone...while we are at it why don't we let criminals do what they want...and how about we let the terrorists run around freely. While it is true that in some forms both legal and illegal aliens help the country there is also the down side of the fact that if you have no idea who the illegals are then they are driving around with fake licenses, social security cards, credit cards...living off of welfare and getting unheard of money from our government. We don't have a clue who these people are..they drive drunk, kill and do other criminal acts...as if we don;t have enough of that going around already. Most do not pay taxes and yet get money from the government...the rest do pay taxes and hold jobs and are upstanding citizens...if I am poor and have a job but can barley feed my family and go out and rob a bank get caught and thrown in prison for 20+ years and yet these illegals jump the border illegaly break the laws everyday and when they caught get a free bus ride back home only to start all over.

I can honestly say that if I was there and that Mexican flag was raised over the American over that post office I would have personally done everything in my power to take that flag down...for those who say it's just a flag are either not Americans or just don't care enough about this country...I get a fuzzy feeling and teary eyed evertime I hear this countrys national anthem and I feel proud everytime I see the flag waving in the wind. I would gladly die for this country and always show my respect to those who already have....two things I know that is true in life is that we will all die and that I am and always will be an American.

Cutting out all of the political bs, we need to put an end to the illegal situation and it's about time the government gets off it's ass and does something instead of ignoring the problem and it is a problem regardless of who thinks it is not. If I have to follow the laws of this country then so do those who are not citizens of this country. For those of you who are not Americans, would you aprreciate it if I came into your country and had all sorts of fake credentials, getting government money and possibly commiting other more serious criminal acts and there is no way you could track me...pretty scary huh. .The Mexican government is pretty much useless and I can understand why so many Mexicans want to come to this country being that their own country is crooked. But like everything in life therer is a right way and thoudands of wrong ways....all we ask is that they do it the right way..that's it just get registered and come into this country the legal way. The same goes for anybody from any other country...I myself respect all life big and small and I would be more than happy for others to become American citizens as long as they are upstanding people and not criminals and deadbeats. Like most everything in life everybody wants everything fast and easy instead of working hard for it and earning it..it's not fair to those who did the work and became American citizens the right for others to simply walk right in and do what they want. How would you like it if you worked hard going to school to become a doctor and then finally getting accepted to a great place and then some guys walks in out of nowhere with fake credentials and is head surgeon..better yet how would you feel as a patient finding out your doctor did not even goto school and his degree is fake...I guess that would be alright since he is just living his dream and supporting his family..you know because he only did it because he was poor and wanted a better life for his family...and so on and so forth..

Illegal is illegal
legal is legal

 

[movingconcierge]

I already commented about the video. Also I can't read the Time article...maybe you have to subscribe or something.

That video doesn't prove that illegals are more harmful than good to our society. Anyone can pull out negatives about anything. The video is one-sided propaganda.

I'm not sure exactly what would prove to you that illegal aliens are criminals and circumvent to existing legal immigration system. Here is a link to the Time Article

Everything is propaganda when it is against your position...That video shows to me the level of disrespect and level of commitment that the illegal alien movement has to overtake California and beyond.

How can you ignore giant banners that say the US stole California from Mexico and now they are going to take it back? I mean how do you rationalize that away? Do you think that video is doctored to make up those things? Are they too sensitive or too difficult to believe; that these seemingly innocuous peoples would want to reclaim by sheer numbers what they misconstrue as their own?

 

[labrocca]

No...propaganda is when something is from one side which that video certainly is.

http://www.answers.com/propaganda&r=67 (in case you have trouble with the definition)

And the US stole America from the Indians and the Mexicans..that's just a simple fact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican-American_War (again..in case you don't believe me)

I agree we need to have everyone in the USA documented. You don't do it by calling everyone illegal and threatening to kick them out. An amnesty would most likely get a ton of people to sign up and get them papers which you yourself advocate.

Also..sure they are criminals. Have you ever gotten a traffic ticket? That would make you and just about every American a criminal. Every crime has a punishment that's just. Justice would be to get these people to pay a FEE to stay here.

Did you know that the most successful fighters in Iraq are of Mexican decent? Seems to me a good use of the immigrants. Maybe for citizenship we should require military service.

You still have not answered my one question about a SOLUTION. Do you just think the Mexicans will dissappear one day and not come back? Ok...let's assume for a sec we round them all up...send them back...do you truly think they won't just come back? Ok..next step..we build a wall...spend billions and billions and billions...don't you think they will just poke some holes in it? Don't you think it's like using glass doors to protect a safe?

I agree the flag raising is atrocious. I would serious kick some ass if I was there.

However all I really here from those against the immigration is the same tune. Illegal is illegal. Ugh...yeah and? That's not a solution. Give me a reasonable solution and I might go along with it.


My personal experience is that I have never ever had any issue with a person of Mexican decent. Even these protests...they are PEACEFUL...sure lots of yelling and poor remarks...but they ain't really hurting anyone or rioting are they? It goes to show they can be good people. However I fear that if pushed into a corner...that good can be turned into bad. The US has already too many EXTERNAL enemies. Accept the Mexicans and befriend them. The US can use some more friends and our southern brothers imho are good people.

Anyways..thanks for reading. I respect the opinions of those against illegal immigrants. I just don't see the opposition offering good solutions.

Oh and let me address one issue that's brought up about dangerous criminals. Border patrol does work but their problem is they are catching piles of people and it's serious work. So let's say in a month 100,000 people come over illegally from the border. Can you say that maybe 5% are dangerous criminals? Heck..let's go crazy and say 10% are the people we don't want here. Now if we had a better immigration system..don't you think that 90% of people crossing illegally now would rather fill out a form and take the road? That would leave border patrol only 10,000 a month to try and catch...a much more realistic number with a better chance of catching possible terrorists. That's LOGIC!

 

[DN Tycoon]

Did you know that the most successful fighters in Iraq are of Mexican decent? Seems to me a good use of the immigrants.

Give me a break..show me the proof to back this up.......this statement IMO is loose and irresponsible.

_________--

You want "LOGIC"?

We can come up with many ways to thwart most from comin gin illegally such as enforcing the border with great presence and shooting anyone who enters this country illegally. I have the right to shoot anyone who refuses to leave my property and it should be the same way for those who enter our country illegally.

As far as Americans taking this land from the Mexicans and the Indians....it does not matter the most powerful people won as history has been done over and over again on all lands.....that was history and has no pull in present day.

How about everytime we catch an illegal alien we give them an option to become legal by filling out the proper paperwork and giving them a 2 year pass to prove that they are productive citizens in the community.

How about everytime we catch someone trying to come over the border illegaly we detain them and have them fill out citizenship papers and give them a 2 year pass as above.

How about forget about the problem and just let the disease grow until we have civil unrest and a possible internal war.

How about we attack Mexico and just take it over splitting it up into state making them all American citizens.

How about we just hand over America back to the Indians and the Mexicans and we all can become second class citizens while they raise the Mexican flag high and proud.

How about we grab our guns and protect this country from these invaders who are slowly trying to take over our country...shall we rise?

How about we give the world Amnesty and destroy our culture, economy and history

How about we sit on our thumbs and point fingers like the majority of people do in the world instead of dealing with it..

How about we unite the U.S, Canada and Mexico becoming the United People of America and hold the economy to one united currency the mighty Dollar.

How about we all move to Mexico and let the Mexicans live in the U.S

How about we shell out all of our hard earned tax dollars to the world and we can work for free supporting those who take advantage of others and loopholes.

How about we scrap the government and just let everyone govern themselves and do whatever they want

How about we merge the American and Mexican flags together and have everything in both English and Spanish, forcing our kids to learn Spanish our soon to be national language.

How about we forget about those who died for this country and drop everything they stood for and died for.

How about we put the word El in front of every store, resturaunt and gas station to make the Mexicans feel at home. El Mcdonalds sounds good.

How about we put signs on the border saying don't bother to stop we could care less what your business in this country is....feel free to piss on any American you see

How about we blame this all on George Bush..seems to be the popular thing to do

How about we just enforce the laws!!!!

 

[labrocca]

Did you know that the most successful fighters in Iraq are of Mexican decent? Seems to me a good use of the immigrants.

Give me a break..show me the proof to back this up.......this statement IMO is loose and irresponsible.

The statistic was aired on Fox News (or was it CNN) a few nights ago in a debate about immigration. I am not sure why it can't be true.

_________--

You want "LOGIC"?

We can come up with many ways to thwart most from comin gin illegally such as enforcing the border with great presence and shooting anyone who enters this country illegally. I have the right to shoot anyone who refuses to leave my property and it should be the same way for those who enter our country illegally.

No you can't just shoot someone that won't leave your property. You can only use deadly force in protecting your own person and it must be shown you felt a threat to your person. Sorry but if I am having a picnic on your lawn you can't shoot me cuz I won't leave.

As far as Americans taking this land from the Mexicans and the Indians....it does not matter the most powerful people won as history has been done over and over again on all lands.....that was history and has no pull in present day.

I 100% agree. He just pointed out that he was offended by their statements...the statement are true.

How about everytime we catch an illegal alien we give them an option to become legal by filling out the proper paperwork and giving them a 2 year pass to prove that they are productive citizens in the community.

How about everytime we catch someone trying to come over the border illegaly we detain them and have them fill out citizenship papers and give them a 2 year pass as above.

I agree with the above. But if we just let them in at the border we wouldn't have to "catch them" trying to sneak in.

How about forget about the problem and just let the disease grow until we have civil unrest and a possible internal war.

Nah...I don't agree we should do nothing.

How about we attack Mexico and just take it over splitting it up into state making them all American citizens.

I am ok with the above resolution. Anyone else up for the Mexican-Amercian War II? Seriously...I am not being sarcastic.

How about we just hand over America back to the Indians and the Mexicans and we all can become second class citizens while they raise the Mexican flag high and proud.

Ugh..no one is proposing that. Don't be silly...let's try and keep this civil and reasonable.

How about we grab our guns and protect this country from these invaders who are slowly trying to take over our country...shall we rise?

Hmm..interesting notion. Invaders ehh...If you feel so strongly about this go right ahead...get your gun and go to the border..enjoy the trip.

How about we give the world Amnesty and destroy our culture, economy and history

And what is American culture exactly? It seems to change every 10-20 years anyways. So if more Mexicans are here our culture is "desroyed"? I don't get that. I don't feel the least bit threatened by Mexican culture. America has proven itself as a diverse nation ready to incorporate any other culture and turn it into a capitalist ideal. Taco Bell anyone? Did you know in California there are more Taco Bells than McDonalds? It's been that way for a lot of year...big deal.

How about we sit on our thumbs and point fingers like the majority of people do in the world instead of dealing with it..

You already suggested we do nothing.

How about we unite the U.S, Canada and Mexico becoming the United People of America and hold the economy to one united currency the mighty Dollar.

Already suggested again..and again...I agree. If EU can be one why not North America?

How about we all move to Mexico and let the Mexicans live in the U.S

GREAT idea! I been really wanting to move down there when I retire. It's a beautiful place. It just needs an American touch (strip malls).

How about we shell out all of our hard earned tax dollars to the world and we can work for free supporting those who take advantage of others and loopholes.

We already do that for many parts of the world. At least the Mexicans come here and work for it.

How about we scrap the government and just let everyone govern themselves and do whatever they want

The Libertarians would love to do this. Can't say it would work but ideally it sounds pretty cool.

How about we merge the American and Mexican flags together and have everything in both English and Spanish, forcing our kids to learn Spanish our soon to be national language.

Not a bad idea. I hope my kids speak Spanish..my wife does and I can tell you it really comes in handy (she is not spanish decent btw..just learned in school)

How about we forget about those who died for this country and drop everything they stood for and died for.

Ugh...how is this a reasonable suggestion. It pretty much is the same as "do nothing"...unrealistic actually. btw...plenty of Mexicans are dying for this country in Iraq, Korea, Vietnam, and other conficts.

How about we put the word El in front of every store, resturaunt and gas station to make the Mexicans feel at home. El Mcdonalds sounds good.

This would make some domainers super happy. (cmon that's funny)

How about we put signs on the border saying don't bother to stop we could care less what your business in this country is....feel free to piss on any American you see

WTF does this mean? Most of them come here and WORK for Americans. They wouldn't come if there wasn't jobs for them. And American businesses do care about immigrants as customers. As a matter of fact it has been shown that cheap immigrant workers help keep costs down. Yeah...it's true.

How about we blame this all on George Bush..seems to be the popular thing to do

Oh that's already been going on. Honestly..it is his fault. I think we should do something...so far nothing has changed for either side. Congress and the President need to do SOMETHING...whether it's amnesty or enforce the law or reinforce the border. I don't think we should do nothing.

How about we just enforce the laws!!!!

Silly suggestion "enforce the law" ...yeah right. Like that has stopped murders, rapists, drug dealers, pedophiles, or anything else. Enforcing laws don't prevent them..only punishes. It certainly won't stop the majority of illegals from coming over. And if you read that Time Magazine article you pointed to. The government said that if they were to enforce the law for the immigration problem that the justice system would COLLAPSE under the weight. It can truly only handle so much.

Ok..now what?

 

[DN Tycoon]

You keep mixing illegals with legals, we are talking about illegals....those who skip the process of becoming a legal citizen and do what they want. Nobody is talking about the legal immigrants....

You must not travel much because in alot of parts in this country if someone enters your property and refuse to leave you are allowed to use any force neccessary to remove them....include shooting them

We can argue like cats and dogs all day but what I don;t understand is your stand on this illegal immigrants situation we have. You act as if you are alright that these people enter our country untouched. You say that most of them come to work...I say maybe and maybe not either way the are illegal.

It's not a hard concept to grasp...if you want to be a citizen of this country then go through the process....I can not get a drivers license without spending a ridiculous amount of time in the DMW...should I just make a fake one since it is easier.

Think about what we are teaching our children when they see illegals entering this country and people saying it's ok for them to enter illegal and obtain illegal documents..what a great example to teach the kids..if you don;t wante to put the work, time and effort into doing something then just find the easy way to obtain it illegally.

Should we enforce the borders, hell yeah and we should do it with extreme measures to show we are not going to be walked over...should the citizenship process be faster and more friendly...hell yeah but untill it is people need to respect it and use it as is not go around and say to hell with your system I will do what I want.

"Did you know that the most successful fighters in Iraq are of Mexican decent? Seems to me a good use of the immigrants."

I don;t care who said that, that is just plain ignorant. Who the hell knows this as a fact. Who stood by and watched every soilder and handed out points. I laugh everytime I read it and it's not because it says Mexicans...it's because it shows the ignorance of many people who make comments like this..I am pretty sure that the majority of soldiers are not Mexican decent going by what our country is made up of.....

I did not point out the Time article...and I don;t believe everything I read, hear or see as I choose to stick to the facts. I do not pull punches and I tell it like it is and when I am wrong I will be the first to appolagize. The government will make any excuse to not deal with the issue at hand. I do not blame Bush I blame the government in full....this problem has been going on for years on years and has always been blinded.

Like I said before I respect all living things big and small but this illegal bs needs to be nipped in the bud before this country is taken over by illegals. If 25 years down the road this continues this country will not survive because of all the fake documents and unregistered people...the economy will collapse, crime will rise extremely due to over crowded poverty and all hell will break loose.

We need to take care of the Americans who need our help, while these illegals are entering and obtaining illegal credentials we have true Americans who are homeless and are hooked on drugs and so forth. I do not want my tax dollars paying for someone who does not pay taxes and is illegal....

If you want to enter this country you have to abide by the laws which include the laws that govern immigration...the soloution is simple and clear...build a wall, hire people to watch the border...god knows we have all the technology in the world we could use and enforce the law....not only are imigrants coming illegallt but some are bringing in guns and drugs among other things..

I work in Law enforcement and I can tell from first hand experience I deal with alot of illegal imigrants..alot who can not even speak english...which should be a must when applying for citizenship. The prisons are over crowded with illegal imigrants just waiting for INS to get a hold of them...wasting more and more tax dollars...the numbers are crazy and getting worse.

It's going to come down to either this problem gets a solution or we have to take matters as a society into our own hands....it's ugly I know but this can not go on much longer before chaos sets in.

I myself am Italian and my family came over here years and years ago in Ellis Island and they came over here by the book....it is not fair to those who went through the process to see others go around and ahead of the line. Think about all of the imigrants who put in for leagl status right now who are doing the right thing while others are getting ahead of them doing nothing more than breaking the law...how fair.

Here is my solution to the problem on a serious note.

1.) Make the process easier and more friendly (faster)

2.) Force the Mexican government to protect the borders with us or take over the country.

3.) Protect the borders, build a wall, use new forces, technology.

4.) Assign different classes to certain passes as not all people come here toi live but just to work and go home withtheir earnings.

5.) Illegal imigrants who are found shall be given the option to go through the process and if they refuse and are caught again they will be put in a special detainee camp for repeat offenders and forced to obtain their citizenship.

6.) All imigrants shall perform 2 years military duty 18-35 and if they refuse shall lose their citizenship

7.) All imigrants must learn basic english

8.) Laws must be passed to regulate the rights of illegal imigrants

9.) Compaines shall be endure heavy fines for each illegal imigrant found to work for them

10.) Assistant shall be tracked to weed out illegals and only give assistance to those who are legal.

11.) Revamp the social security system to better fight fraud.

 

[labrocca]

The military keeps stats on everything. While I can't yet find the stat to back up the statement of the Mexicans doing the best job in Iraq...I bet I can if I keep digging. I still don't see why it can't be possible. What's your reasoning that it can't be true?

https://www.patrick.af.mil/DEOMI/Observances & Demographics/Deomographics/Demographics_2005_09.pdf

I already stated my position is amnesty. If amnesty is granted the "illegals" are no longer illegal. Can I ask you something? Did you drink a beer before the legal age? Do you think anyone that drinks a beer before legal age should NEVER drink a beer?

It's not a hard concept to grasp...if you want to be a citizen of this country then go through the process.

You just stated the whole problem with your arguments..they are CONCEPTS and they aren't based in reality.

Like I said before I respect all living things big and small but this illegal bs needs to be nipped in the bud before this country is taken over by illegals.

Alright..so let's say we had an open border and the Mexicans weren't illegally entering. Would you still have a problem?

We need to take care of the Americans who need our help, while these illegals are entering and obtaining illegal credentials we have true Americans who are homeless and are hooked on drugs and so forth. I do not want my tax dollars paying for someone who does not pay taxes and is illegal....

So you would rather your tax dollars be spent on drug addicts? I don't get that. The immigrants also contribute...can you explain what a drug addict contributes to our society? Seems to me that illegal immigrants work hard for their family to survive while addicts work hard to get high. Which is the better reason?

I work in Law enforcement and I can tell from first hand experience I deal with alot of illegal imigrants..alot who can not even speak english...which should be a must when applying for citizenship. The prisons are over crowded with illegal imigrants just waiting for INS to get a hold of them...wasting more and more tax dollars...the numbers are crazy and getting worse.

WOW..I am shocked. You admit that enforcement is an incredible burden yet you think MORE enforcement is the answer??? I am puzzled beyond belief by this one. Again...what's your realistic solution to this problem? Mine is amnesty with a better open border policy so we can document those coming in and allow our border patrol to catch those coming in for erroneous purposes.

I myself am Italian and my family came over here years and years ago in Ellis Island and they came over here by the book....it is not fair to those who went through the process to see others go around and ahead of the line. Think about all of the imigrants who put in for leagl status right now who are doing the right thing while others are getting ahead of them doing nothing more than breaking the law...how fair.

Me too...but I wonder about my Italian grandparents..did they have some official document that let them in here or did they take a boat, show up, and get counted while entering?

http://www.umass.edu/complit/aclanet/USMigrat.html

That page shows some history to our immigration laws...they are extremely racist in nature. I can't help but to feel that many just don't want more Mexicans here...legal or not. This may or may not be your case...just my personal observation as I see no other basis to deny Mexicans entry.

Also the Green Card wasn't established till 1940. I know my grandparents were here before that. I may not be American if it was sooner. Before 1940 you only needed a Visa and to check in on arrival. Maybe we should repel the Green Card?

Here is my solution to the problem on a serious note.

1.) Make the process easier and more friendly (faster)

2.) Force the Mexican government to protect the borders with us or take over the country.

3.) Protect the borders, build a wall, use new forces, technology.

4.) Assign different classes to certain passes as not all people come here toi live but just to work and go home withtheir earnings.

5.) Illegal imigrants who are found shall be given the option to go through the process and if they refuse and are caught again they will be put in a special detainee camp for repeat offenders and forced to obtain their citizenship.

6.) All imigrants shall perform 2 years military duty 18-35 and if they refuse shall lose their citizenship

7.) All imigrants must learn basic english

8.) Laws must be passed to regulate the rights of illegal imigrants

9.) Compaines shall be endure heavy fines for each illegal imigrant found to work for them

10.) Assistant shall be tracked to weed out illegals and only give assistance to those who are legal.

11.) Revamp the social security system to better fight fraud.

Wanna know something...I agree with everything you say as a solution. Doubtful we can force Mexico to give a crap though. I would also add we need to make English the official language..imho this will HELP the immigrants to speak english faster. No government docs should be printed in multiple languages and businesses should only need to do it on their option.

Anyways...good discussion.

I think we simply differ on one thing. I think the immigrants are good for America whether legal or not. Don't mistake it that I think illegal immigration is OK though. I would prefer everyone get checked in. You offer some good solutions about catching people and offering them time to become legal.

 

[DN Tycoon]

The military keeps stats on everything. While I can't yet find the stat to back up the statement of the Mexicans doing the best job in Iraq...I bet I can if I keep digging. I still don't see why it can't be possible. What's your reasoning that it can't be true?

The fact that the majority by a hughe margin is white in the military debunks the statement and that is why it is not possible. It's just down right stupid to say something like that...that's like me saying those with blonde hair are the best at using rocket launchers....the stat is bs and in no way reflects any truth...if you said the whites are doing the best job in Iraq I can understand because they make up of more than 60% of the military...I do not see how 10% of people could best 60% of people....as if the Mexicans are naturally good at war lol.




I stated before that I do not care if someone wants to become a citizen only that they do so legaly. If we had open borders then so be it but we do not and it needs to be repsected. Amnesty is a joke it's pretty much saying hey thanks for breaking our laws and here take this citizenship without doing anything while others have gone through the system like upstanding people would.

Would'nt you rather have people who respect the laws of this country enter this country then those who disrespect it and then give them the right of passage. As stated before this sends a bad message to our kids.

For the record I can trace my grandparents through the Ellis island logs as I have done through Ancestry.com.

Your replies seem to mix instead of focus on what I say, this is the common political jargon that we are used to in this country. For example when i said there are homeless people and drug addicts and I would rather spend my tax money on them I was stating on helping the drug addicts recover from their addictions not to support them.

WOW..I am shocked. You admit that enforcement is an incredible burden yet you think MORE enforcement is the answer??? I am puzzled beyond belief by this one.

No, the burden is the illegal imigrants themselves not the enforcement...you twisted the words around...another common thing in political jargon...I simply was explaining to the hugh problem of illegal imigrants doing crime and over crowding prisons not to mention creating a ever expanding poverty line.

I do not think you grasp the whole situation we face with this illegal imigration problem, the majority of people in this country are blinded by political bs and media smoke screens. I am willing to bet that if we gathered all the illegal imigrants into one section your jaw would drop...even worse if you saw the amount of them that are criminals you would buy a gun if do not already own one...there are plenty of good people who rob banks but they still need to get a job instead of robbing banks or they have to pay the penalty...it's called resposibility..the reason I remain a productive member of my community...

It must be nice to go around doing what you want breaking laws and then getting amnesty...I sure as hell no I can not get amnesty and I am an American citizen.

You want to be an American citizen then you have to go through the process, someday hopefully the process will be faster and more friendly but until them you must abide by the law. There is a reason we have laws and if we ignore them what is the point..They need to go through the process...nothing more nothing less..it's not asking much...yes it takes times but others have done it....plenty of people live in Mexico happily so those who wish to become American citizens can wait to get legal...what is the rush? If I have to wait to save up for a 2007 BMW and I don't want to wait that long can I just go out and steal one and then get amnesty for my crime?

If i lose my job and need to feed my family can I just rob people to support my family and then get amnesty...if I live in the slums of New York and you live in the High rises can I just move into your place and get amnesty from you? If my family eats nothing but bread and water every other day can i just walk into a grocery store and take what ever I want and get amnesty?

I hope you answered no to all of these, as we all know most of the above we can understand why a person would do that in time of need...and I can understand things look a hell of alot better over here then in Mexico but that is no reason to break the law...the law is the law!

Our people did not die for our rights, freedom and way of life for it to be stepped on...ever hear of the motto "Don't tread on me!" We owe it to all those who have died for this country to force these illegals to respect the law.

 

[labrocca]

As a police officer do you feel you deal with the best elements of our society? Is it possible your view on this issue is solely based on your daily police activity? That imho would be very understandable.

No, the burden is the illegal imigrants themselves not the enforcement...you twisted the words around...another common thing in political jargon...I simply was explaining to the hugh problem of illegal imigrants doing crime and over crowding prisons not to mention creating a ever expanding poverty line.

You can't have one without the other. I am not twisting anything. You want more enforcement correct? You state the prison are already overcrowded correct?

I do not think you grasp the whole situation we face with this illegal imigration problem, the majority of people in this country are blinded by political bs and media smoke screens. I am willing to bet that if we gathered all the illegal imigrants into one section your jaw would drop.

I think you are right about the majority of people in a media smoke screen. You do realize the media thinks we should take action and the majority or Americans feel as you do.

http://www.pollingreport.com/immigration.htm

 

[DN Tycoon]

......................

As a police officer do you feel you deal with the best elements of our society? Is it possible your view on this issue is solely based on your daily police activity? That imho would be very understandable.

I see more in one day then the average person yes and I would state that that does give me a slight insight in the criminal world including the illegal immigrant side. But my views are anything but "soley based" remember I am an American first...

You can't have one without the other. I am not twisting anything. You want more enforcement correct? You state the prison are already overcrowded correct?

Again you are twisting without even knowing....enforcement has nothing to do with over crowded prisons...illegal immigrants are rapidly filling our prison systems due to their illegal activity. The problem is the illegals not the police..try and seperate the two

I think you are right about the majority of people in a media smoke screen. You do realize the media thinks we should take action and the majority or Americans feel as you do.

First off you just ran yourself into the media smoke screen by trying to tell me what the majority of Americans think and then refering me to a media-biased link...the media will push any side that will give them more coverage and better ratings....it doesn't matter what they think and nobody and I do mean nobody can tell anybody what the majority of Americans want....unless you talk to every single person then it is a false statement...you seem to forget who makes these stats we here about....on one nes station they say Bush is in th epositive with the American people and on another Bush is is the negative....i believe what i believe and I do not pull my beliefs off of others and certainly not from what i see or hear from any media source.


Amnesty will only lead to another dark path that will soon envolve into all out chaotic warfare of political mumbo jumbo, racial hate, ignorance at its best and the blind leading the blind...until we are all so involved with our inner struggle that some outside country/force blindsides us and brings dow our great country. There is alot more invloved here then just plain immigration problems...the future comes quick and we need to react now.

 

[labrocca]

First off you just ran yourself into the media smoke screen by trying to tell me what the majority of Americans think and then refering me to a media-biased link...the media will push any side that will give them more coverage and better ratings....it doesn't matter what they think and nobody and I do mean nobody can tell anybody what the majority of Americans want....unless you talk to every single person then it is a false statement.

Ugh...yer the guy that said this:

I do not think you grasp the whole situation we face with this illegal imigration problem, the majority of people in this country are blinded by political bs and media smoke screens.

So does that mean since you didn't speak with every American that your made a false statement?

Also that link wasn't a biased news source. It's a report on ALL the media polls. CNN, Newsweek, FOX, Gallup, LA Times, Associated Press, ABC, CBS, and others.

And as for this Media Smoke Screen? As I said...I don't agree with MOST of Americans that illegal immigration is such a dire problem. It's something to be addressed and that's about it.

You want to know what a smoke screen is...the issue itself. It suddenly appeared a few weeks after all this Katrina non-sense and kind of sits on the bench when trouble gets stirred. It's such a non-issue imho. It's ludicrous the amount of time spent on the "debate"...even you and I can come to a lot of agreement on the solutions yet Congress wants to politicize this bullcrap of an issue trying to get brownie points for their constituency.

It's all bullcrap imho.

Thanks for the debate sir. Doubtful I can say too much more. I have stated my positions.

 

[viciouscircle]

Also that link wasn't a biased news source. It's a report on ALL the media polls. CNN, Newsweek, FOX, Gallup, LA Times, Associated Press, ABC, CBS, and others.

There is no such thing as a "unbiased news source". "News" is a business, and businesses are biased towards whatever generates them the most profit. (I havn't read the article nor am I even sure of what link is being refered to here, just making a point about news sources.)

 

[vrwrys]

We should blame ourselves (american people)not the mexicans for this being a epidemic, they're only seeking a better opportunity for themselves and their family,but i do think it should be mandatory to speak our language if you live and work here.It's like being illiterate!!!The atmosphere in the US has been primed for illegal immirgration.Some jobs require you to be bilingual to handle non-english speaking workers and to help illegals recieve financial aid.Stop the maddness!!!!! Put the guns down and wasting tax money start making laws that work!

 

[DN Tycoon]

We should blame ourselves (american people)not the mexicans for this being a epidemic, they're only seeking a better opportunity for themselves and their family.

So you think it is alright for people to break the law as long as they are "seeking a better opportunity for themselves and their families?" I also guess you wouldn't mind if someone who doesn;t make as much as you comes over to your house and robs you to take better care of his/her family. It would also probably be ok if someone robbed the local bank as long as they are poor and need to take care of their family.

Although I can see how us (Americans) are partialy to blame for not doing something earlier, I do not accept the entire portion of this problem. Why is it that these illegals are getting away with breaking our laws and it being ok because they are only seeking our better options. This send s amessage to others around the world that anyone can enter our country illegaly and walk all over us and we will shake their hand and give them money.

Some how those that enter this country illegally are getting treated like the most poverty stricken people on the planet and they need our help so desperatley even though there are plenty of people who enter this country legally and in the same situation as those who enter illegally. Why can't these people show some patience like the others and do it the right way....why is that so hard to understand.

Is it so hard to say hey I want to become an American citizen I am going to go fill out the paperwork and get the ball rolling...meanwhile I will continue to work and support my family like a resposible human being until we receive confirmation that we may enter the country legally....wow that is so hard!

I guess if I need some money badly to feed my family or save my house and I need it today and I goto the bank and they say this is going to take at least 3 days..I should just rob the bank instead because I don't want to wait...I can't wait...must be now!