What is outsourcing doing to Westerners?

[Philleh]

I contacted someone on msn lately about some content writing, my offer was to review latest movies, by walking down to my local dvd store, paying for a dvd, watching it then reviewing it. My price was 9 dollars. So if you take away the price it cost for the dvd it was really only a 3 dollar job for 400 words. He told me that this was way to high and he's rather hire and Indian. So we got into a bit of a debate anyway here are some funny quotes..

"well its great for business, we get paid 70 euros for a design and outsource it to an Indian designer for 2 dollars"

Then we got into an argument about Sweden vs Australia.

"we have a history more than penal colonies and wiping out native flora and fauna"

So he assumes I'm a white European Australian, for all he knows I'm a native aboriginal who's family's been here for more then 40000 years.

So back to my central argument at hand, what is outsourcing doing to legitimate people such as myself. How can we possibly compete on a global scale?

I have an Australian friend who charges 20 an hour, which in Australia, you can be a brick layer and earn more. Yet, he has trouble finding clients and when he does, they try to get it down to 5 dollars and hour. He tells them to piss of, then they bring out the old "an Indian would do it for 5" or "why should I pay you 20 when I can get a similar job done for 5?"

I'm not racist, but I'm really tired of outsourcing.

sorry to generalize with Westerners...

 

[nicholas]

It's just the new world order. There'll be some pain in developed countries as developing nations take much of the lower-end work away and benefit from outsourcing. However, in general it can actually be an eventual positive for the country making the outsourcing because in general, they'll have to focus on "higher end" work, usually more knowledge-based work while the lower-end jobs go out to other countries.

For example, (and this is just an example) many lower-level or repetitive software-oriented tasks are outsourced, but the analysis and architecture of the system are still made in the outsourcing country (and pays more).

One popular example is Apple Computer. They do the actual design and intellectual work while the actual manufacturing is outsourced to different companies outside the U.S. such as Taiwan. This benefits Apple tremendously even if they're outsourcing the job outside because it's cheaper. The beneficiary country and companies benefit tremendously as well. This may be a detriment to the jobs created in the US if Apple hadn't outsourced it, but in reality, more "knowledge-based," higher end jobs are created in the US, as the manufacturing and factory work is done in another country.

Same dynamics work in other industries, and people will just have to adapt. It's sad indeed for designers to be asked for a niggardly sum by clients, because the same clients can find other providers elsewhere; but if you're a designer, you can adapt in different ways too and show more value to clients (such as finding more clients in your locality and sell them on your geographic location and personal service because you're nearby; etc. etc.).

 

[Philleh]

What happens if you're interested in say article writing and want to be at the lower end?

Then you're ****ed.

 

[Albino]

it annoys me too. already, I am in a bad position, as the uk is more expensive than the US. but then India is less expensive than the US. So technically, and Indian could do jobs for a quarter of the price I can.

and the market over there is so saturated, that finding a decent developer is hard. The majority of indians that I have come across in web design have had poor English skills, not a lot of experience/expertise, and will do anything for a cheap amount, even if they are not suited for it.

 

[Philleh]

Yeah, I don't have a problem with Indians accept the prices they charge make it impossible for me as a content writer to earn a wage.

 

[Barrucadu]

I've given up on finding people to hire me, as there is always someone who'll do it cheaper. I'm making a bit of money now and then doing bits of work (mainly for morphmaster).
Then again, I did recently get offered a few hundred pounds to make a site for a photographer, so its not all bad

 

[Peter]

It's just the new world order. There'll be some pain in developed countries as developing nations take much of the lower-end work away and benefit from outsourcing. However, in general it can actually be an eventual positive for the country making the outsourcing because in general, they'll have to focus on "higher end" work, usually more knowledge-based work while the lower-end jobs go out to other countries.

For example, (and this is just an example) many lower-level or repetitive software-oriented tasks are outsourced, but the analysis and architecture of the system are still made in the outsourcing country (and pays more).

One popular example is Apple Computer. They do the actual design and intellectual work while the actual manufacturing is outsourced to different companies outside the U.S. such as Taiwan. This benefits Apple tremendously even if they're outsourcing the job outside because it's cheaper. The beneficiary country and companies benefit tremendously as well. This may be a detriment to the jobs created in the US if Apple hadn't outsourced it, but in reality, more "knowledge-based," higher end jobs are created in the US, as the manufacturing and factory work is done in another country.

I am sorry but I 100% disagree with your argument. How many people are involved in the architecture of the product compared to how many are involved in the manufacture? The jobs lost far outweigh the jobs maintained.

I have personally been made redundant (in fact I was sent home on Friday) due to this very practice only difference is it was Hungary where the work was going (I was on about £9.50 an hour, the Hungarian counterparts are on £1.50). The chances now of me getting a job paying those wages in my local area are nigh on impossible. The majority of jobs here are for minimum wage (£5.35 an hour).

The pain you mention that the developed countries will have to endure is higher unemployment and a widening divide between the rich and the poor. Also explain to me how a company outsourcing their work to other countries increases the amount of "knowledge based" jobs. The company I worked for at present are keeping the main R & D centre in the town I live in but there is already another R & D centre in India I think it is. The company have certainly not ruled out moving it completely and that is a strong rumour that has the possibility of happening within the next 18 months (when the only product they are working on comes into development, there are no development plans after that for that centre).

 

[jsp]

Frivolous tasks are taken care of, more space for innovation on our behalf...

 

[kemjika11]

2 things:

1) OUtsourcing might be done at a cheaper price, but there's often a risk of mediocre work quality, which goes to say, you often get what you pay for often.

2) its a myth for the most part that outsourcing is killing western economies, etc. you know the lines. SOlid articles online will tell you its not having a bad effect as many people think. i think its all about job creation, new industries opening, and jobs moving between sectors.

 

[Philleh]

I did a bit of hosting support awhile back too and charged 15 an hour. People were just like wtf, 15 an hour that's way to high.. I mean when you think about in perspective of my country, to live a decent life you need to be on 30 an hour. 15 dollars for what I was doing which is pretty specialized is fair, yet people rather outsource and pay people 2 dollars an hour...

 

[Peter]

outsourcing to other countries is not the only threat. Not sure if you are aware but Dell (as well as probably many other companies) use convicts to build their systems.

I bet they do not pay the convicts the same as a normal Dell employee.

The following is a few years old

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/employment/2004-07-06-call-center_x.htm

 

[Philleh]

Some really great comments above.

 

[nicholas]

Outsourcing is always bad if you're the one whose job's been taken away.

I for one have lost plenty of clients (design and programming) who have gone not only to developing, "Indian," "Estonian," etc. etc., countries, but to "kiddies" who have no family to feed or bills to pay outside what they need for walking around money for the weekend. That's just how it is.

But complain as you might about how this is bad from the point of view of the one whose job's been outsourced, it benefits someone else (too bad it isn't you, or for that matter, me) and in the end, you'll find another way either by looking for other channels, moving up to a higher level of services, etc.

So you'll just have to adapt and seek other avenues that would improve your position.

 

[Philleh]

To get to the top, you need to start at the bottom.. which is impossible now.

 

[Peter]

To get to the top, you need to start at the bottom.. which is impossible now.

Yeah the people at top of where I worked started as tea boys etc. The only way to get on the sort of ladder that will get you anywhere near the top now is if you have a degree even then you will struggle.

I know plenty of people who worked where I worked who had great qualifications 1 for example was a qualified University instructor and he could not get a job in my home town (and my home town is a big University city).

 

[Keral_Patel]

Quite a thread here. Let me put my comments in.

I am from India = Yes. I do work for myself and my clients = Yes.

I do it for less dollars = NO. I charge more then an american and a britisher would charged combined. Why that I don't know maybe because I don't like to be low balled for the work that I do.

For the earning part. It might be need for some people and they might be in a fix so they do it for less. I used to do coding for one week and charge $2 for it just 2 years ago. Now I charge good amount to even look at one site and suggest the changes which the owner has to do himself. I am not joking but I have clients who pay me quite a good amount sometimes double to take a look at their websites and suggest the changes. I am not oracle that people pay me that amount, others can also do that. But they like the service and I am the one who is in the contact with them or their companies and thus they return to me.

For article writing some of my friends here on NP know what I did just 4 or 5 months ago. I wrote 100 articles for one client for $20 per article and took 2K's in one week. If that is high price or low price I don't know but it was my wish to earn 2K that week and I fulfilled it by writing 100 articles day and night.

I don't think one person's time is more costly then the other one who lives in another country. Lets say a new person who enters and wants to write articles he might charge $5 or $10 to get the feel or to make business relations or just to get the work as he is new and no one is giving him any work. On the other hand If you tell a millionaire in India to write an article for you for $500 then also he doesn't have time to write it.

and the market over there is so saturated, that finding a decent developer is hard.

Yes market is always saturated for the people who do the normal work. Ants roam here and there and die. No one cares about them.

The majority of indians that I have come across in web design have had poor English skills

Wrong. Sorry but I will have to disagree with this one. I can speak and write better English then people whose mother tongue is English.

not a lot of experience/expertise

Sadly you have just seen half the part. If you meet an indian who has the skills and has the money and has the base set then you will know how it is.

and will do anything for a cheap amount, even if they are not suited for it.

Again wrong. I have denied more then 500 offers till today. And I have just denied one offer of programming from one NPer 30 mins ago. He is still online on my yahoo and I am going to show him this post. :D

I am not taking sides here. But I think you can't know a person by his country if you are working in cyberspace. If this had been the thing for the people who live in America then also I would have said all the good things that they are at.

 

[Philleh]

I don't think one person's time is more costly then the other one who lives in another country.

What about the fact that they have a higher level of education? (generally)?, Have a higher level of comprehension, more advanced grammar and punctuation skills? The cost of living is another factor, where I live a candy bar could probably buy a meal in your country.

 

[Kenny]

Outsourcing is always bad if you're the one whose job's been taken away.

I for one have lost plenty of clients (design and programming) who have gone not only to developing, "Indian," "Estonian," etc. etc., countries, but to "kiddies" who have no family to feed or bills to pay outside what they need for walking around money for the weekend. That's just how it is.

But complain as you might about how this is bad from the point of view of the one whose job's been outsourced, it benefits someone else (too bad it isn't you, or for that matter, me) and in the end, you'll find another way either by looking for other channels, moving up to a higher level of services, etc.

So you'll just have to adapt and seek other avenues that would improve your position.

:bingo:

 

[Keral_Patel]

What about the fact that they have a higher level of education? (generally)?

What about a fact that one can code and another cannot. If you know English that doesn't means you can code better then another person who has little knowledge of English.

Have a higher level of comprehension, more advanced grammar and punctuation skills?

I am not saying that Indians are better at English. But I also don't deny the fact that there are English authors who are Indians. Now I wouldn't want to search google and paste their names here. :D

The cost of living is another factor, where I live a candy bar could probably buy a meal in your country.

What does that mean. If your candy bar could buy a meal in India. So what. Are you again trying to low ball Indians. Now isn't that called racist.

Rather then getting the anger out here I would say anyone can prove himself that he is better then the others no one has shackled them. Everyone is free and everyone has 2 hands and 2 eyes. The difference is the dedication and the hard work.

 

[Philleh]

What about a fact that one can code and another cannot. If you know English that doesn't means you can code better then another person who has little knowledge of English.

I was talking about articles, but what ever..

What does that mean. If your candy bar could buy a meal in India. So what. Are you again trying to low ball Indians. Now isn't that called racist.

No, don't even bother trying to imply i'm racist. I was just saying, that if I charged what the average indian person would charge (based on article writing) it would not be possible for me to put a roof over my head, pay for food or own a car.