What is outsourcing doing to Westerners?

[Philleh]

I contacted someone on msn lately about some content writing, my offer was to review latest movies, by walking down to my local dvd store, paying for a dvd, watching it then reviewing it. My price was 9 dollars. So if you take away the price it cost for the dvd it was really only a 3 dollar job for 400 words. He told me that this was way to high and he's rather hire and Indian. So we got into a bit of a debate anyway here are some funny quotes..

"well its great for business, we get paid 70 euros for a design and outsource it to an Indian designer for 2 dollars"

Then we got into an argument about Sweden vs Australia.

"we have a history more than penal colonies and wiping out native flora and fauna"

So he assumes I'm a white European Australian, for all he knows I'm a native aboriginal who's family's been here for more then 40000 years.

So back to my central argument at hand, what is outsourcing doing to legitimate people such as myself. How can we possibly compete on a global scale?

I have an Australian friend who charges 20 an hour, which in Australia, you can be a brick layer and earn more. Yet, he has trouble finding clients and when he does, they try to get it down to 5 dollars and hour. He tells them to piss of, then they bring out the old "an Indian would do it for 5" or "why should I pay you 20 when I can get a similar job done for 5?"

I'm not racist, but I'm really tired of outsourcing.

sorry to generalize with Westerners...

 

[Keral_Patel]

I can understand friend. I am not saying that you should charge low. But I was telling you the story from my perspective when I am sitting in India.

Recently the dollars rate came down... That is the loss for outsourcing companies isn't it.

Moreover I was trying to encourage people that see if we work hard enough it doesn't matters what our rates are and where we live. If you just decide that to keep the roof on your head you need XYZ amount then you can start planning on it and achieve that targets by putting your efforts in it. If you are writing 1 article for $10 then lets start by thinking how to write 2 articles in that time and sell them at $5 and even kill the out sourcing competition.

I definitely understand the problem. Even I want more money so I also want to charge high and I know the competition is tough enough. So what I do is decide my rates according to my time and my knowledge. Lets start one another thread in Business development here: http://www.namepros.com/business-development/

And discuss about this problems. Team work is a great weapon and if we use that for right purposes then it can provide excellent results.

Apologies if anyone has been offended by my posts.

Thanks.

 

[Philleh]

no probs, we both took things a bit personally... I'm trying to get some content based jobs at 5 dollars for 400 words, but I'm finding it rather tough.

 

[Kenny]

John Henry was a steel drivin' man,
and he died with a hammer in his hand.

Perhaps he should have learned to run the steam drill?

Sorry if this reference dates me, but the point is
simple.
Grow with the flow, bro, or get left behind.

Everyone, not just "westerners", has the right to earn as they see fit.

Opportunity knocks often on the door of the well prepared.

Peace,
Cy

 

[chicker]

The uk software industry and whole computing industry is outsourcing and now the main companys only have consultors within the uk to contact the clients in english then it is all shipped to their office in india. All because of profit!

The clients still pay the same or just a little less but the companys executives are raking in alot more.

I think the uk government should try to limit this laws should be implemented to stop uk companys completly outsourcing and make sure they keep atleast 50% of their workforce in the uk but eventually all we will have is brick layers and labours and other jobs that cannot be outsourced!

Just my few but I think we should keep it in the uk Or Other countries for that matter

 

[-NC-]

Interesting thread, here's my 2p:

I work for a company in the UK where all we do is program websites (more web applications really) all day long every day.

We charge between £80-£120 an hour depending on the work. If you think that's expensive, then listen to this: when we work through agencies, they mark up our rates by at least %100.

We commonly see clients scoff at our rates, then get work done on the cheap (either off shore, or here in the UK). We usually phone them up a few months later to see how the project is going. The answer is often 'badly'.

Irrespective of race or quality of education, the opportunity for miscommunication is increased by large distances and compounded by culture clash.

If you pay rock bottom prices, you usually don't expect top quality right?
store brand vodka vs stolichnaya. burger chain vs restaurant. vacuum packed sandwich vs deli fresh.

We are quite happy to let the clients who want things done on the cheap to go elsewhere, they aren't usually good clients to have anyway. We have more work than we can handle and are hiring skilled developers from all over the world - to come and work in the UK.

Philleh, do you rate your article writing skills above the people charging $2?, $5? If you seriously believe they cannot compare, then don't compete with them. Target a different segment of the market. Double your rates. Make it $10 per 400 words. Get yourself a slicker web presence than them. Write articles explaining and proving that your articles are the best and plaster them across the net. Unrelentingly tell prospective clients that you are way better than the competition and that in fact they are getting a bargain, as a professional copy writer at an agency could not do a better job than you and would charge 4 times as much.

If you can't compete on price, then you have to stay away from the bottom end of the market and compete on quality and skill.

:imho:

 

[lpstong]

It's just the new world order. There'll be some pain in developed countries as developing nations take much of the lower-end work away and benefit from outsourcing. However, in general it can actually be an eventual positive for the country making the outsourcing because in general, they'll have to focus on "higher end" work, usually more knowledge-based work while the lower-end jobs go out to other countries.

It wouldnt be lower end work or outsourcing. If India stays to an industry standard.

If you really think about it if one pays $9 and India will do it for $3 - 5. And the industry standard would be $7 - $10. Does India really fathom how much more they are worth and can earn.

Like said the cost of living is cheaper. But in India the poverty is so drastic. That they will do anything hand over fist.

And a beef about being outsourced when it comes to writing and speaking especially from India is if they can do it fluently, do this and raise the bar for themselves as far as wages. I would not complain so loudly other than a competitor got the job. Not a competitor who will do anything and at a fraction of the cost that is beyond ones self worth. You ask for low wages you will never get out of poverty.

And as far as Apple being in another country for certain parts et cetera. Can I say World Trade Organization - WTO, AFTRA, Trade agreements btween the US and other countries for political gain elsewhere. Why do you think and hear of so many riots and protestors at such meetings. Cheaper to ship certain items into the country. And how many unions do you find in India to help boost moral, wages and the standard of living for the people. Amongst other resons as well.

 

[shockie]

Irrespective of race or quality of education, the opportunity for miscommunication is increased by large distances and compounded by culture clash.

this is usually the main issue i see when hiring someone who's mother-tongue isn't english (despite how great their english is for someone in their home country). the communication part gets to be a hassle, time consuming, and ultimately costly.

 

[Ixix]

i hate it when people sigh, oh...'it's just the lower end jobs that are getting outsourced.' What about low income workers that have worked for that particular company for X amount of years?

While there is no such thing as job stability in this day and time, the jobs available for those that don't have the high degrees or skills are left flipping burgers at Mickey D's.


But i do remember somebody once said that 'America's a land of opportunities' a place 'where you go to find your dreams' that it was the 'land of milk and honey'....

but today, the milk and honey is imported from china, and your opportunities are being outsourced to the nation you left to pursue your dreams.

Don't get me wrong, there is still ways of making money here in the west. I guess you can't outsource hairstylists, shoe shiners, or bus drivers.

In all honesty, the only real opportunity left in the west in my mind is sales and marketing. but that's just my opinion.


oh well, just wait and happens when india asks for a pay raise...cuz they're all making moola and spending it....the price of stuff's going to have to go up

 

[CrazyTech]

I'll share a couple personal experiences here.

Number one, I run a business and I have decided to go elsewhere for some functions of the company because it makes good sense - in both headaches and dollars. I could pay someone for the position, but the type of work in an on-call roll would cost much more than it would actually be worth.

I have been using an American-based company for 4 months. Their service has been good, but I can already see a small business which is overburdened and their service is suffering from it. Sometimes the tasks are taken care of within an hour. Other times it's many hours.

I started chatting with a gentleman and he told me about his company and so I tried them out. He fooled me quite well as his English was good enough for me to originally believe he was a native speaker. His company is registered and operated in India with an entirely Indian staff. I will say that this did not translate to all the workers, though.

I will be the first to admit that I try to keep my money here in America. I'm no racist nor do I have anything against any other country. I have a sense of nationalism on multiple levels. Anyway, the first company was cheaper - the American based one. So there are two pros - or two cons (one for each) depending on how you look at it.

That being said, the Indian company has been good. So has the American company. However, it comes down to a strained business with the American one or going with the Indian one where the only problem seems to be a communication barrier from time to time. Both have been pleasant to deal with but the Indian company makes me feel like they want my business. That's the feeling you want as a business and a customer.

I guess the moral here is that there are those who work for what they are worth. I don't think people mind paying more - in my case twice as much - for quality.

Going from there, I've watched my father, a construction worker life-long, go from choosing a job to just trying to find one. He's been blessed to find one heck of a job but unfortunately he has been a victim of outsourcing and most notably GAT + NAFTA.

His job wasn't directly outsourced. The jobs that were created when he worked on building a plant - he was mainly a crane operator - were. Politicians, including many of my fellow conservatives didn't think about this. This is an issue that transcended party lines. However, some are starting to wake up.

Isis and I agree this time. This DOES affect people and a lot of people are caught in the cracks. There are never as many skilled positions as there are unskilled. My father was known as one of the best crane operators in the southeast. He was a more skilled position but he still was tremendously affected. He then was forced to work an assembly line where that was closed down too when a European company acquired the American one. He now has been blessed with a safety job that seems secure.

It DOES affect and it does hurt.

In the end, I don't like outsourcing. I don't have a problem with letting the best-qualified worker do the job, but I do have a problem with going somewhere because it's cheaper. I'm all for increasing our cost of living because this will come back to hurt us and ultimately the same people who think they'll benefit from us hurting.

 

[Keral_Patel]

If you can't compete on price, then you have to stay away from the bottom end of the market and compete on quality and skill.

Agreed Nice tip.

To anyone who thinks India is going at cheaper rates and has a feeling that they don't do the work properly. I have something to say. I did interviewed 20 programmers in this april for my own company. I hired some of them and I also fired all of them.

The point is that there is not quality issue in India. That is the quality issue in humans.

No one is mentioning that even in west some people are writing horrible articles. Even if they have no connection to India. So that proves that all Indians are not fools. It is the humans some humans just don't have that quality and it shows.

I started chatting with a gentleman and he told me about his company and so I tried them out. He fooled me quite well as his English was good enough for me to originally believe he was a native speaker. His company is registered and operated in India with an entirely Indian staff. I will say that this did not translate to all the workers, though.

I totally agree with you here. I have seen more and more people running outsourcing offices here in India. Some of them are totally foolish and their whole staff is also foolish. They have just came into the industry for getting some quick dollars. The owner himself knows ZERO. The staff tells "Yes sir" to everything he says so he thinks his staff is the best one, which in real is also ZERO. They tell you they can do it which in end gives you the ZERO. I have seen companies like this and even you people might have seen some low quality companies in west also. I have some examples also but I don't want to list them here but you can understand what kind of service I am talking about if you just search for some warnings and alerts and some scams right here on Namepros itself.

To philleh:
I assume you are not getting clients for $5 per 400 words. Now that is not an outsourcing issue. It is your own business development issue. You don't know how to get business for yourself. $5 is low rate for 400 words. If you can't even get that then you need to seriously think about the strategies that you will put into action to get better rates and more work.

If you want then just do one thing. I assume you are a writer and that is why we are discussing on that articles issue here. So just write 5 articles on some topic post them in one thread and start a thread in advertising and sales section and write a note that you will charge $10 for an article like it. You will surely know where you stand. If your articles are good enough then no one, Indian, Chinese, American, Nigerian :D can out bid you on your rates at that quality scale.

If you still can't get the work. I think I have the work myself. I am getting paid $10 from one guy whenever I write an article that is his open offer for lifetime. I can flip the table and start outsourcing work from myside to you that would be work going out of India rather then coming to India. :D

I will make $5 in between just like that. That is why I was saying you need business developments tips. Not Better outsourcing tips.

Thanks.

 

[Ixix]

it's one thing to outsource based on skill. it's another to escape fair wages, employee treatment, and american laws.