We Want Forever Registration!

[Business Brands]

Let's solicit the .com registry towards it.

 

[bmugford]

Let's take .COM. You have no idea what is going to happen with prices.
Unless the registry is on board, the service is worthless.

For the company it is collecting income now for future services rendered; decades down the road.
It would be a pure faith play by giving money to a company for a service or product decades away.

Brad

 

[Ja Kai]

Horrible idea....unless you completely despise dropcatch.com and snap/NJ - and that hate is so deep that you would sacrifice your own livelihood.

A domain world where you can only acquire domains via handreg. No expired auctions/no drop catching.

Would be great for Hugedomains and others who have a complete portfolio - maybe. I don't even think a good thing for them.

You pro-lifetime registration folks are nuts.

 

[Rob Monster]

Totally, am on board there. Here was my case:

https://epik.com/blog/forever-domain-registrations.html

The registries mostly lack vision. The new TLDs so desperately need this innovation!

 

[branding]

You pay a one time fee and you own the domain.

No. They register it for the maximum number of years, then they extend that each and every year untill they go bankrupt .

There are possible cases where it's interesting to use but unless I pay a lifetime fee at the registry it's not for me.

And even then... .ro was free 'forever', look how that worked out.

 

[Ategy]

I spoke with a friend who runs his own domain-registrar.
He said he is paying about 1 USD (or less) per domain per year.
So the domain-registrars are actually making a lot of money.

That most definitely is not true for .com domains. Verisign wholesales .com domains to registrars at $7.85 each.

Also .. it's important to remember .. nobody actually owns domains .. when you pay for a domain, you pay for the exclusive right to use it (effectively renting the right to use it) .. but seems there's some funny wording at either Verisign or probably ICANN level that stipulates nobody owns domains (not sure if that applies to ccTLDs).

Technically, even with a forever domain, you will still not own it forever .. I think the logistics is that by paying the forever pricing, Epik commits to paying the cost to Verisign indefinitely. If in the unfortunate event something happens to Epik, then if your domain moves to another registrar, they will only honour whatever is currently paid (I'm assuming 9 years up front .. but not sure?)

For an end user, I suppose it's a good thing. Although in theory they are stuck at Epik forever .. including if they want to consolidate their domains to whereever their hosting is. Yes you can always set things up at Epik for that ,, and yes .. Epik is a great registrar ... but when looking at Forever domains, I'm talking about in general if it was offered by all registrars.

But for domainers and the overall domain ecosystem it's a bad thing (for many of the reasons @Ja Kai has pointed out). Basically if someone dies, then that domain is gone FOREVER! Short term it's not much different than someone registering for 10 years .. but what if the internet's address system lasts 100+ years?

It's kinda like when sports teams retire jersey numbers .. at first it's fine .. but then you have a 100 year old team like the Montreal Canadians with a strong tradition of winning and legendary players, and all of a sudden all the best numbers are no longer available.

I think the current 10 year limit is actually a smart thing. I love a lot of what Epik is doing in general .. and I think it's a cool offering for end-user clients .. but I can't say it's something I think is a good idea (for the internet in general) .. because at the end of the day it's not good for the domain ecosystem (and even worse for domainers unless you're prepared to make huge investments to scare potential clients .. but even then .. it would only show up to 9 years when they checked).

 

[Ja Kai]

Lifetime registration is a crutch for those who don't know what they are doing...

UDRP's would go through the roof - Nuts - total nuts....

 

[oldtimer]

Forever domains sounds good if it's somehow guaranteed to be Forever although like most other Forever things like "lifetime warranty" it might be more of an advertising and branding tool than being what the word actually means.

Nevertheless why do we have to pay so much per year for a domain in the first place, I know that at the beginning it was necessary to charge something to get the internet infrastructure in place, but now that there are almost 300 million domains registered Worldwide why shouldn't the registry price of for example .com go down considering that the number of registrations have been steadily increasing and in a few years they might be double of what they are today.

I believe that when .com registrations reaches to 200 million the registry should be charging 99¢ per domain plus 2 or 3¢ for ICANN fees.

IMO

 

[Bob Hawkes]

if the wholesale-price from Verisign towards a Registrar is the same as the retail-price from a Registrar towards an end-user, then how do you think a Registrar is making any money ?

I suspect mainly from other services such as web hosting, from renewals at rates that do make money, or from other related services such as domain marketplaces, agents, etc.

While as noted there are occasionally volume incentives to registrars for specific periods, when registrars offer domains at less than their wholesale cost to registry they are losing money on that transaction that must be recouped elsewhere.

Bob

 

[Ategy]

if the wholesale-price from Verisign towards a Registrar is the same as the retail-price from a Registrar towards an end-user, then how do you think a Registrar is making any money ?

Most .com domains are actually sold at $10-15+

It only goes below $10 at volume and a couple of registrars that are in the minority.

Hosting, privacy (not so much anymore), SSL, and email upselling are huge money makers and you will often even see FREE domains with hosting plans.

Instead of denying what the rest of us are saying and know to be true, please look it up .. Verisign is a public company and the information is public and not very hard to find.


Some TLDs do offer first year super discounts and even promotional money to registrars to place the domains on the home page, be part of email campaigns and be at top of searches.


When .xyz was selling at $0.01, they were operating at a loss as I think they were absorbing the $0.17 ICANN fees. Verisign doesn't need to give away .com domains when they are the most wanted .. in fact .. if they did that, one could argue it would have the effect of diminishing the brand.

 

[BrandEntrance.com]

I had a dial up modem package that had a free lifetime support back in the days.

now where did I put that number...

 

[Ategy]

Ya 2.6% until .com prices go up which now with the new contract they will almost certainly. The new contract allows verisign a 7% annual increase in the last 4 years of every 6 year term. I see no reason why cerigin wont go for the max price increases. Over time it will not be sustainable.

Not really ... 7% growth on $7.85 is $0.55 .. to make up the difference we're talking about needing an extra 0.14% in return on the $392. Plus I based my initial calculation on after the 4th 7% hike.
At $392, they only need to make 2.00% interest to pay the current $7.85, then the cost increases to the fund is 0.14% more for every 7% increase in registration. Considering the average market performance is significantly more than that, unless there is a huge unrecovered crash at the start (and even then it probably would be fine), then there really is no danger unless a registrar closes for other reasons.

2.6% was actually the amount after the 4th 7% increase in wholesale renewal cost. While the difference between 2% and 2.6% might seem like alot, it's based on the same original $392 .. and we need to keep in mind that the markets will likely outperform that to increase that base $392, which in turn would mean actually needing less than 2.6%. In fact, if we go by theoretical averages, the fund should actually grow in the long term, making the financial viability truly "forever".

The only issue is a serious crash at the start, which certainly is possible given the very unpredictable state of the world today, but it would have to be worse than the worse crash ever with no recovery. The chances are far more that a registrar uses the funds for something else and then also goes bankrupt for different reasons.

For most people, it's no secret that in terms of a pure money play, you're better off paying year by year and keep the extra $392 in the markets collecting interest yourself. However, it's important to keep in mind that this forever option is not about that .. it's about security and stability .. which is worth vastly more than $392 if you have an important domain or a big company. As I said .. forever domains really aren't good for domainers for many reasons .. but they can be a very good option for end users depending on their company and circumstances.

As a domainer of only 3 years, I've already resold an expired domain I got at auction back to the original owner. I gave it to him relatively cheap because of the circumstances .. but it was still more than $392.

There are tons of pros/cons regarding forever domains .. but the financial viability of the concept when initial price is 50x, really isn't an issue in any way. That's not to say a registrar couldn't go bankrupt for other reasons, but as long as they charge around 50x of the current renewal cost, they won't go bankrupt because of forever domains unless market fundamentals turn on their head.

 

[Ja Kai]

UDRP's would go through the roof - Nuts - total nuts....

And when someone dies/divorces, or just says, 'the hell with domains", those domains will be lost forever...

 

[werty]

I wouldn't vote for that business model. Prefer current model where domains expire and one can actually make money from them.

 

[branding]

It's all speculation and that's probably what drives forever registrations.

Say in general a .com costs $10 to register and/or renew. A forever registration would equal up to 40(!) years of registration (say its $400 once). If... Pricing would stay the same.

Let's look at a 20 year lifespan with a 7% increase every last four years in a 6 year period (as per verisign's wishes)... Why 20? Because I doubt in 20 years we'll be using domains the way we are now.

On a regular reg:
Year 1: $10
Year 2: $ 10
Year 3 (+7%): $11.07
Year 4(+7%): $11.84
Year 5(+7%): $12.67
Year 6(+7%): $13.56
Year 7: $ 13.56
Year 8: $ 13.56
Year 9(+7%): $14.51
Year 10(+7%): $15.53
Year 11(+7%): $16.61
Year 12(+7%): $17.78
Year 13: $17.78
Year 14: $17.78
Year 15(+7%): $19.02
Year 16(+7%): $20.35
Year 17(+7%): $21.78
Year 18(+7%): $23.30
Year 19: $23.30
Year 20: $23.30

Total: $327.30 vs $400 for a forever reg.

So basically you would be giving your registrar +/- $70 interest free credit at minimum (not taking into account they can lock up the first 10 years at just $10) ,per domain ,for the next 20 years. Also not taking into account that a registrar's costs are lower than what a registrant would have to pay and some added interest they could generate from the initial payment over the years. GD had 62M domains in 2018. Say they are all forever regs. That would equal to 4.340M in capital they can reasonably invest for a 20 year period.

Getting the bigger picture yet?

We could go on and extrapolate for the next 20 years including the 4.240M cash invested generating even more capital but that would be a bit much to speculate on.

Forever registrations can give people ease of mind. No worries about renewals. If that's the case, that $400 may well be worth it... from a monetary POV it's just big business... just my opinion.

 

[Larion]

I spoke with a friend who runs his own domain-registrar.
He said he is paying about 1 USD (or less) per domain per year.

So the domain-registrars are actually making a lot of money.

 

[oldtimer]

if the wholesale-price from Verisign towards a Registrar is the same as the retail-price from a Registrar towards an end-user, then how do you think a Registrar is making any money ?

The Registry price for .com is $7.85 and so when Rob gives us those $5.99 specials it's actually a loss that he absorbs to keep us happy. That's why I was complaining about us having to pay so much for .coms earlier. If the Registry only charged lets say $1.99 then Rob could give us $2.99 specials on .coms and still make a little profit.

The Registry is taking a lot of money from everyone that they really don't deserve to have relative to what they do for us in return.

IMO

 

[Rob Monster]

Maybe he should dye his hair. lol I will put a wig on.

Thanks for that, but I decided better to age gracefully. I am 52 years old, in good health and no grand kids for the foreseeable future despite having raised 5 otherwise productive kids. Lord-willing, I will assemble a management team that will lead the company regardless of my day to day role. That being said, I can assure you that I am having a ton of fun. Believe it or not, I don't know anyone whose job I would rather have right now. Sounds crazy, I know

 

[strugar]

https://www.epik.com/promos/forever/

 

[Business Brands]

You pay a one time fee and you own the domain.

 

[Bob Hawkes]

I think there needs to be some protection and that the no caps movement is the wrong direction. Actually I would like to see price caps on every extension! I mean they could be high enough that any reasonable company could live within them, maybe 5% per year maximum. It would help end sales because buyers would not worry they might suddenly triple.
Bob

 

[oldtimer]

perpetual digital sovereignty

Although a little too long, but this might make for a good domain name.

This might also be a good subject for a new thread so that there can be some discussion as to how people can preserve their domains and websites (and other digital assets) beyond their own lifetime.

IMO

 

[Ategy]

The problem I have with Escrow.com being upset at Epik (@Rob Monster), is that Epik actually isn't Escrow .. it's a better replacement to Escrow because the transactions are instant. So it's like an Escrow .. has all the markings of an escrow transaction .. but since the transaction is instant and the funds<>domain gets exchanged at the same time, then there really isn't any holding time, and thus it's not an Escrow much in the same way Zero isn't a number but most people call it a number anyways. So the actual need for "escrow" becomes obsolete by the very nature of it being instant.

Even worse .. is that Escrow.com isn't even a real Escrow itself, because unless you pay double the fee for their concierge service, your domains are not protected in anyway throughout the transaction. Now there's no doubt Escrow.com will do their best to track down and resolve any issues .. but in theory you could transfer the domain to the buyer, and he or she can claim they never received it! It's a huge flaw in their system and most certainly not in any way an air tight escrow .. specifically on the domainer side.

I honestly haven't looked at Escrow.com claims in much detail because they are right in that Epik isn't Escrow .. Epik's actually a better alternative that makes the need of having an escrow in the first place obsolete ... oh yeah .. and if your Epik account is tagged as a NamePros member .. the whole thing is free of charge if the buyer pays by wire!

 

[Rob Monster]

The problem I have with Escrow.com being upset at Epik (@Rob Monster), is that Epik actually isn't Escrow .. it's a better replacement to Escrow because the transactions are instant. So it's like an Escrow .. has all the markings of an escrow transaction .. but since the transaction is instant and the funds<>domain gets exchanged at the same time, then there really isn't any holding time, and thus it's not an Escrow much in the same way Zero isn't a number but most people call it a number anyways. So the actual need for "escrow" becomes obsolete by the very nature of it being instant.

Even worse .. is that Escrow.com isn't even a real Escrow itself, because unless you pay double the fee for their concierge service, your domains are not protected in anyway throughout the transaction. Now there's no doubt Escrow.com will do their best to track down and resolve any issues .. but in theory you could transfer the domain to the buyer, and he or she can claim they never received it! It's a huge flaw in their system and most certainly not in any way an air tight escrow .. specifically on the domainer side.

I honestly haven't looked at Escrow.com claims in much detail because they are right in that Epik isn't Escrow .. Epik's actually a better alternative that makes the need of having an escrow in the first place obsolete ... oh yeah .. and if your Epik account is tagged as a NamePros member .. the whole thing is free of charge if the buyer pays by wire!

That is some wisdom right there. All that time @Ategy.com is not spending walking Steamie is working out to make him insanely articulate and concise too. What in the world is happening????

 

[Sutruk]

Really, nothing lasts forever. This is like Hosting companies saying they offer Unlimited bandwith for 99 bucks, no way.

Registry prices can change, the Registrar itself can crash in the next few years. Are you telling me that a Registrar is going to offer you a domain for a one time fee for the next 100 years? really?

No way.