The USA Political Thread

[lennco]

Here you can spout your USA political views.

Rules:
1. Keep it clean
2. No fighting
3. Respect the views of others.
4. US Political views, No Religious views
5. Have fun

:wave:

 

[Theo Goodman]

A so called whistle blower is someone that exposes criminal or illegal activity.
That is not the same as corprate spying, or "spying" in general. The two could overlap but do not have to.
-
"We don't have citizens spying on citizens for the government"

Yes we do. What would be approved as a non-tinfoil source?

In any case you would have to define "citizens" as apposed to "workers" or "agents".
People "spying" for the stasi were "agents" often called "unoffical agents" but still "agents"


-The stasi prevented over 50 terror attacks by NATO forces-

 

[Kate]

We don't have citizens spying on citizens for the government, like the Stasi did.

Yes, fortunately, it's just some little 3-letter agency, with a tight budget and very limited means as we all know. Thank you, now I'm feeling better. It's not that bad after all.

We are not in the 20th century anymore. The world is different now, and it's not pretty.

 

[JB Lions]

Yes, fortunately, it's just some little 3-letter agency, with a tight budget and very limited means as we all know. Thank you, now I'm feeling better. It's not that bad after all.

We are not in the 20th century anymore. The world is different now, and it's not pretty.

If you're having some sort of bad feelings and stuff like that, that might be a sign of something else. Because, I'm not aware of anybody I know, thinking the NSA is out to get them, or worried about speaking their mind etc., like most people in this country as evidenced by the examples I gave earlier.

I think it's more interesting to me, that I don't think Stasi ever came up in the conversation, then somebody just needs to post a pic, now I'm hearing U.S. = Stasi. How easy people are to manipulate and then go from that to making pretty ridiculous comparisons. You'll find one thing, monitoring, but then leave other things out, like target, the actual feeling of people living in that environment etc.

 

[enlytend]

But then there is the intended target, what's it's used for etc. Even in the article you just linked too:

The first one was just fluff. Apparently you didn't read the usatoday article/roundtable. Go back and read it.

There is no probable cause. There is no indication of any kind of counterterrorism investigation or operation. It's simply: "Give us the data." ..

Bill and I worked on a government contract for a contractor not too far from here. And when we showed him the concept of how this privacy mechanism that Bill just described to you — the two degrees, the encryption and hiding of identities of innocent people — he said, "Nobody cares about that."

This (kind of surveillance) is all unnecessary. It is important to note that the very best of American ingenuity and inventiveness, creativity, had solved the major challenge problem the NSA faced: How do you make sense of vast amounts of data, provide the information you need to protect the nation, while also protecting the fundamental rights that are enshrined in the Constitution?

The government in secret decided — willfully and deliberately — that that was no longer necessary after 9/11.

It's not just the trust that you have to have in the government. It's the trust you have to have in the government employees, (that) they won't go in the database — they can see if their wife is cheating with the neighbor or something like that. You have to have all the trust of all the contractors who are parts of a contracting company who are looking at maybe other competitive bids or other competitors outside their — in their same area of business. And they might want to use that data for industrial intelligence gathering and use that against other companies in other countries even. So they can even go into a base and do some industrial espionage. So there is a lot of trust all around and the government, most importantly, the government has no way to check anything that those people are doing.

On whistleblowers in general

There is no path for intelligence-community whistle-blowers who know wrong is being done. There is none. It's a toss of the coin, and the odds are you are going to be hammered.

 

[JB Lions]

I did read it, I can pick out some quotes too, from one of them:

NSA whistle-blower William Binney, speaking of Snowden:

"So he is transitioning from whistle-blower to a traitor."

They're just going over the same stuff already discussed.

 

[enlytend]

"So he is transitioning from whistle-blower to a traitor."

Taken out of context of the entire conversation. And if the only part of it that had meaning to you was the discussion of Snowden, you're missing the key points.

- There's no way for anyone internal to go through "proper channels" to report wrongdoing within the agency without fear of reprisal.*
- Privacy of American citizens IS being violated. Technological workarounds which would serve both purposes (security and privacy) have been available for years - they were considered unimportant.
- There are insufficient safeguards on the data collected to the point where anyone with superuser capabilities can see/modify/etc. data for whatever purpose. Access or modify the data, then edit the logs, modify timestamps etc. to hide your tracks - piece of cake.

But hey - some folks seem to be very comfy standing around with their heads in the sand -

* There is a long tradition in these agencies that if someone rocks the boat, even if it's something relatively minor, they will harass the living s*** out of that person

 

[Theo Goodman]

or worried about speaking their mind etc

exactly
if you are not a terrorist or criminal what do you have to hide?

 

[JB Lions]

Taken out of context of the entire conversation. And if the only part of it that had meaning to you was the discussion of Snowden, you're missing the key points.

But hey - you seem to be very comfy standing around with your head in the sand - far be it from me to stop you.

I'm just not the paranoid or NSA is out to really get Americans type, that's all.

 

[DU]

I'm just not the paranoid or NSA is out to really get Americans type, that's all.

I believe that the NSA is only 49% certain you are american based on your prior references to being in Germany.

Anyway. If you ever communicated via email to anyone that becomes a suspect you would be on the list of people that can have their information reviewed.

How many end user emails do you send again?

 

[JB Lions]

I believe that the NSA is only 49% certain you are american based on your prior references to being in Germany.

Anyway. If you ever communicated via email to anyone that becomes a suspect you would be on the list of people that can have their information reviewed.

How many end user emails do you send again?

Oh no, does this mean any minute now, they're going to break down my door and take me away? Throw me in one of those Obama camps? Oh damn, was just thinking about that eagle that was trapped in my pool area last week. I think it had a camera on him or something. Then my dryer stopped working and they said it was the motherboard and they came and put a new one in. My clothes dry quickly now, but what about that motherboard? What is it really doing? And then the cable issues, which they said was the neighbors rabbits chewing on them but now I'm wondering. A guy came to lay new cable and bury it so it wouldn't get chewed on. Plus, he also put a cable amplifier in my room. He looked a little suspicious. So does my dog. He's always burying something. Every now and then he escapes and runs around the neighborhood. But maybe he's just meeting with one of his operatives, giving them the weekly update on me. Had a problem with the power going out a couple of times last month and when it came back on, the AC wouldn't come back on . I had to manually go thru the setup. So I called the people that installed it and they said they'll come out with a new thermostat. It fixed the problem, but now I'm wondering. Everything I just posted is true. It was like June was Government Infiltration Month for me. This sucks.

 

[enlytend]

Oh I don't think they're "out to get" Americans, but the irresponsible mishandling of data and needless disregard for the 4th ammendment leave the door wide open for a person or organization to access the data and "get" people - individually or otherwise - to suit their agenda.

 

[eyedomainous]

Aren't we all "spies" on the internet? I mean who has not Googled someone? Or viewed pages intended for "family and friends", or "members only", or accessed news behind 'walled garden', and so on?

Truth is, we use the web to spy on the world. But is that spying and data mining?

"Data mining is the automatic or semi-automatic analysis of large quantities of data to extract previously unknown interesting patterns."

Could it be that the Gov is data mining web user's meta data in order to determine Whom to spy on?

That's a more complicated tale, and its not as sexy as a good Spy Story.

 

[DU]

Every now and then he escapes and runs around the neighborhood.

Irresponsible dog ownership is not all that funny...


"The NSA is setup to spy on foreigners".

Imagine yourself as someone who has sought asylum. Then think about what you're saying. Think of yourself as a Cuban who wants to talk their family in the US. Imagine you're working hard in the US and want to contact your family or friends back home. It's not about you and it's patronizing to all the different people in the world that you think it is. How do you think nuclear physicists from China or Russia working in the US feel?

As I said though. You're mostly likely a foreigner.

Was your familykept in internment camps in the US during the war. Have you ever been picked up and asked for a visa or proof of residence or to show you are legally in the country? Know anyone who was going to be deported and separated from their American born children? You haven't been corralled into a small office in the airport and questioned on arrival when all you wanted to do was get back to your wife - or vice versa.

There is also the bigger picture involved which is the relations with other countries and what they think...

It's not spying like in the movies where James Bond goes out and finds the man with 3 nipples and the most interesting twist is whether the drink is shaken or stirred, it's not Jason Bourne and Treadwater where we can go on a one man mission to understand who we are, it's not a Le Carre novel. This is data and intelligence gathering that is used to gain an advantage over friends and influences trade, commerce, markets and everything else that links countries and people. These are supposed to be agreements built on international diplomacy. We're threatening countries with trade agreements over Snowden? Is this how things are supposed to work?

This is why Europe is so upset (not the 51st state obviously)

If you can't see how that can get fucked up by one country that violates Geneva conventions one minute, spies on friends the next minute you're more naive than I thought.

WAR IS PEACE. FREEDOM IS SLAVERY. IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

 

[JB Lions]

"you're more naive than I thought."

That you posted all that, thinking other countries don't do the same or that they're shocked by any of this, that's naive.

https://www.google.com/search?q=eur...or.r_qf.&fp=eaa8dcb9a92423ce&biw=1280&bih=549

 

[DU]

That you posted all that, thinking other countries don't do the same or that they're shocked by any of this, that's naive.

Your well thought out post uses the word other and same like it is supposed to somehow mean something to me.

And the link to Google search that responds mostly with links to articles showing how the trade talks and data sharing efforts (to fight the terrorism you so fear) are being impacted means what?

This post is the moral equivalent of "crickets" :imho:

 

[JB Lions]

I figured you would be able to pick out the sites, I guess I was wrong. I'll direct link for you:

"Europe’s feigned spying ‘shock’"
http://www.postandcourier.com/artic...rope-x2019-s-feigned-spying-x2018-shock-x2019

"Merkel says EU must not forget U.S. spying in push for free trade"
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/06/us-usa-security-europe-germany-idUSBRE96507B20130706

France probably do more than us

"For 40 or 50 years, we absolutely know the US intelligence agency is listening to everybody, including France,” he says. “This is absolutely normal. It’s the job of intelligence agencies to listen to [one] another.”

"Le Monde published Thursday a report alleging widespread intelligence spying in France, similar to the US PRISM program. France’s leading daily paper, whose report received widespread international media coverage, alleges that such acts are "outside the law, and beyond any proper supervision.”

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Euro...S-France-finds-itself-in-spotlight-for-spying

You basically took it hook, line and sinker. There is no shock, just politics, leverage. Everybody spies on each other.

"trade, commerce, markets"

Business. And people/countries who conduct business, try to get info on each other to get an upper hand. Normal stuff. If Coke is having some meeting, Pepsi wants somebody there. If Romney is having some fundraiser, Dems want to get somebody in there, to record 47%.

You post like you're living in some ideal world, instead of a real one.

 

[verbster]

People have been spying, informing, tattle-telling and ratting out each other for a long time. It's human nature. The digital world has just made the net a tighter weave that catches and processes more. What's happening now with the NSA is nothing compared to when nano-computers are bio-integrated into our gray matter. Then we truly will be able to read minds.

 

[Domainace]

I figured you would be able to pick out the sites, I guess I was wrong. I'll direct link for you:

"Europe’s feigned spying ‘shock’"
http://www.postandcourier.com/artic...rope-x2019-s-feigned-spying-x2018-shock-x2019

Amazing how your links almost never support your argument. Are you pulling our collective leg? This link above was to an opinion piece. One unnamed writer claimed that Europeans are just pretending to be shocked. As far as I can tell, you could have written the article yourself. or some guy in his pajamas in rural Pennsylvania having a daily rant. The author supported his rant with exactly zero sources, not even unnamed sources.

It wasn't even up to the standards of the NP political thread, much less whatever rag published it.

Why did you provide that link exactly?

 

[JB Lions]

Amazing how your links almost never support your argument. Are you pulling our collective leg? This link above was to an opinion piece. One unnamed writer claimed that Europeans are just pretending to be shocked. As far as I can tell, you could have written the article yourself. or some guy in his pajamas in rural Pennsylvania having a daily rant. The author supported his rant with exactly zero sources, not even unnamed sources.

It wasn't even up to the standards of the NP political thread, much less whatever rag published it.

Why did you provide that link exactly?

lol, are you for real? Did you miss the other links? Or the many other links on the internet?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-01/europe-s-faux-outrage-on-nsa-spying.html

http://www.dw.de/germany-also-profits-from-us-british-spying/a-16916837

And do you really need a link for something as basic as this? Do you really think Germany or any other country is really unaware that we or other countries spy? Do you think they're unaware of the little agency called the NSA? You really think they're unaware of things they do themselves?

Yes, fake outrage

"Faux outrage is another universally practiced tool of the trade, and needn’t cause harm unless governments do dumb things to show they’re serious."

 

[Domainace]

lol, are you for real?

I wonder the same about you often, sadly though. My point was that you choose links very carelessly, perhaps under the assumption that few people will actually click and read them.

Of course, I don't care whether a bunch of cynical and mostly venal European pols are shocked or not.

The point, once again, is that you are handing over immense surveillance and enforcement powers to people who aren't primarily concerned with your well-being. At at some point, maybe already passed, you won't be able to to retract those powers - and they will be used in ways that will shock you, unless you are feigning your current naivety.

Sounds crazy, doesn't it? History makes good reading.