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Who is to Blame for the Troubled US Economy?

  • This poll is still running and the standings may change.
  • Both Parties

    270 
    votes
    44.9%
  • Neither Party

    57 
    votes
    9.5%
  • Democrats

    134 
    votes
    22.3%
  • Republicans

    141 
    votes
    23.4%
  • This poll is still running and the standings may change.

Impact
8,555
Here you can spout your USA political views.

Rules:
1. Keep it clean
2. No fighting
3. Respect the views of others.
4. US Political views, No Religious views
5. Have fun :)

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The views expressed on this page by users and staff are their own, not those of NamePros.
conservatives are (in theory at least) in favor of smaller government. And small governments can't take away your sex toys. Leftists ("liberal" in the modern perversion of English) believe in huge government.

This is the same old argument that is meaningless.

What is small vs large?

Employees? Budget? Income? Surplus? Reach?

It's unfortunate that it's a term that is used by everyone in a totally misleading sense.

One side might, as a hypothetical argument, want a smaller govt (benefits spending) but a larger govt (manning a a fence with Mexico or DHS).

There is also scope within that. Some may want smaller govt by reducing spending public servants (say teachers.fireman) in favor of privatisation but have larger private sector spending (through private industry who provide efficiencies of the market). Others may want no spending on public roads believing that private and free enterprise will pick up where it is needed. The whole "we built that" argument.

The reality is:

Upper class needs the middle class to work for it.
Middle class needs the lower class to scare it shitless.
Lower classes are generally fucked (with the odd exception to continue the american dream fantasy).

It's all very simple and yet complicated. The absolutist truth is that a large population of people that hate the safety net are one board room decision away from complaining they don't have it. I knew a staunch republican who constantly bitched about people "not working for a livin" and not "taking care of themselves" who had the gall to say all this while stopping payments on his mortgage being told it would take 18 months for them to catch up to him... I know really liberal people making 100K+ working for a charity.... responsibility is earned or lost by all parties and all kinds of people.

A lot of people "taking advantage" of it would willingly swap with anyone who had a decent job. Every striation of the classes has issues... the poor misuse food stamps, the middle class cheat on taxes, and the rich fix interest rates and scratch each others backs.

I don't know why you all want to fight each other all the time. Perhaps you should all realize you are all on the same side.

And you're losing.
 
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I brought up the sex toys example (in Alabama) just to show how ridiculous/intolerant the right can be. Something that around half of the country uses. Something you can buy at Amazon.com, your local Walmart or drugstore (Walgreens, CVS). A sex toy.

Or the One Million Moms upset at this JCPenney commercial

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XtS7I50Gwk"]Ellen DeGeneres' JCPenney Christmas Ad Piqued One Million Moms - YouTube[/ame]

Can you tell me what's wrong with the commercial? Nothing to most people but for them it had Ellen DeGeneres in it and she's a lesbian. Oh noooooooooo.

Or the Parents Television Council, which is primarily composed of the right, complaining about stuff like Joe Flacco saying a cuss word late at night after winning the Super Bowl, actually filing an FCC complaint. Them complaining about R-rated movies or shows like Family Guy, cartoons made for adults, shown at night.

All that is ridiculous. Most of that coming via the Christian Right, a big block of the Republican Party. The same block trying to take away rights, keep others from having it.

There's no tolerance there, just backwardness.
 
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You guys are really stuck on that abortion issue, huh. So concerned with another woman's body. If you guys were really concerned about it, I would think you would be more pro-birth control.

For those Pro-Life, what are your views on birth control? Are you against it like the loony Santorum?

Clearing out some bookmarks, ole Ron Paul

"Former GOP presidential candidate Ron Paul has slammed US law enforcement for responding to the Boston Marathon bombing with “police state tactics.”

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/DC-Dec...Paul-slams-Boston-police.-Has-he-gone-too-far
 
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I brought up the sex toys example (in Alabama) just to show how ridiculous/intolerant the right can be. Something that around half of the country uses.

"Conservatives" ban sex toys. "Liberals" ban large soft drinks. Which is more ridiculous? I'll leave that to you.

I put the words in quotes above because real conservatives don't want the government to tell us what toys we can buy. Real liberals don't want to control how people live their personal lives. Both words are so misused as to be meaningless these days.

Since I can't control idiots and megalomaniacs, I'd be happy just to see them with less power. That means less government. A 90% revenue cut across the board - let people work out which programs they want to save and which ones they want to dump. Won't ever happen, unfortunately. Americans will see a 90% cut in their wages before that happens.

Regarding abortion, I'm not in either camp. If I was forced to choose, I would probably choose to allow it within certain parameters. Nobody is going to change their mind on this, but it would be nice if the pro-abortion side would recognize the valid points made by the other side, rather than just pretending that ending an incipient human life is the same as having a mole removed.

I'm all for birth control, except those condoms with bumps, ribs, or the frilly things on the end. They're dangerously close to being sex toys:)
 
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I don't know why you all want to fight each other all the time. Perhaps you should all realize you are all on the same side.

And you're losing.

We don't really fight; we just try to throw verbal haymakers. Instead, we duel at the speed of light with digital bullets made of emotion, ignorance, facts, lies, half-truths and righteous indignation. And the important part we don't recognize is that it's all a diversion. Something to keep us masses from zoning in on all the corruption and manipulation that would lead to public outrage and possibly another revolution. So instead, we argue morality, politics and religion, and as we do, the big boys are laughing all the way to the bank.

"Conservatives" ban sex toys. "Liberals" ban large soft drinks. Which is more ridiculous? I'll leave that to you.

I put the words in quotes above because real conservatives don't want the government to tell us what toys we can buy. Real liberals don't want to control how people live their personal lives. Both words are so misused as to be meaningless these days.
Since I can't control idiots and megalomaniacs, I'd be happy just to see them with less power. That means less government. A 90% revenue cut across the board - let people work out which programs they want to save and which ones they want to dump. Won't ever happen, unfortunately. Americans will see a 90% cut in their wages before that happens.

Regarding abortion, I'm not in either camp. If I was forced to choose, I would probably choose to allow it within certain parameters. Nobody is going to change their mind on this, but it would be nice if the pro-abortion side would recognize the valid points made by the other side, rather than just pretending that ending an incipient human life is the same as having a mole removed.

I'm all for birth control, except those condoms with bumps, ribs, or the frilly things on the end. They're dangerously close to being sex toys:)
I appreciate the further details you've included on your personal perspectives. The problem is that even though your post has the appearance of tolerance and bearing common sense, you still divide people into two camps and lump all of each side into the same beliefs and values. On abortion, in fact I agree mostly with you that it should not be the primary fallback to solve the problem of unwanted pregnancy. Unfortunately, once pregnancy has occurred by mistake or by force, there is no other way to un-ring the bell. When some drunk father comes home and beats his wife and rapes his 14 year-old daughter, that's when tolerance should be practiced. And to use your example, that's when it would be nice if the pro-life side would recognize the valid points made by the pro-choice side, rather than automatically rejecting the benefits a non-invasive abortion will have on a young girl who has already been scarred for life.

Sympathy for an opposing sides beliefs is not nearly as hard or uncommon as many think. I have sympathy for pro-life people who truly weep for the unborn souls of aborted fetuses. I have sympathy for the pain and disruptions abortions cause to families. And I have regret at never knowing what kind of person a baby will turn into. But I have stronger feelings for the trauma certain kinds of pregnancies have on women. To be forced to give birth to a rapist's baby, and have that baby resemble the looks of the rapist would be hell to the mother. The baby knows nothing of it's procreation and wants parents. The mother is robbed of the chance to experience the joyous bond of motherhood with a child created out of love, not a relationship based on sadness and confusion, and in some cases emotional, moral and mental pain.

It truly is a mess, but the Supreme Court got it right. The recognized the problem from both sides. They heard the best arguments ever made from both extremes, and what did they do? They compromised. And that's how progress is made at times.

Which brings me to your other point of cutting the budget by 90 % and allowing "people' to decide which is worth keeping. A 90 % cut would create more chaos and bedlam than any of us can imagine. It would be right out of a post-apocalyptic sci-fi movie. There’s no way “the people” could get it together to make decisions for the population. To this, I can only wonder if you gave it any real thought before suggesting it might actually provide a solution for government. Of course, one way to have smaller government is to kill half or more of the people in the country, but that's not a real solution, is it?
 
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Which brings me to your other point of cutting the budget by 90 % and allowing "people' to decide which is worth keeping. A 90 % cut would create more chaos and bedlam than any of us can imagine. It would be right out of a post-apocalyptic sci-fi movie. There’s no way “the people” could get it together to make decisions for the population.
There would be some chaos, but I think people have more sense than you give them credit for. The government has brainwashed the country into thinking they need a strong government to hold society together. The only way a 90% cut will come about is by total currency collapse. Which is a possibility.
 
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There would be some chaos, but I think people have more sense than you give them credit for. The government has brainwashed the country into thinking they need a strong government to hold society together. The only way a 90% cut will come about is by total currency collapse. Which is a possibility.

Most of the essential systems reliant upon federal workers and funds would cease. No military. No customs/immigration. No power or water distribution/regulation, no toxic waste clean-ups, no CIA/ FBI, no passports, maybe no mail, no one to manage international trading (including food supply systems), wholesale smuggling, rampant unemployment. No more funding of social security or Medicare, etc. And 200,000,000 guns. Nope, no problem with that scenario.
 
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A lot of people "taking advantage" of it would willingly swap with anyone who had a decent job. Every striation of the classes has issues... the poor misuse food stamps, the middle class cheat on taxes, and the rich fix interest rates and scratch each others backs.
Very True.
 
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Most of the essential systems reliant upon federal workers and funds would cease. No military. No customs/immigration. No power or water distribution/regulation, no toxic waste clean-ups, no CIA/ FBI, no passports, maybe no mail, no one to manage international trading (including food supply systems), wholesale smuggling, rampant unemployment. No more funding of social security or Medicare, etc. And 200,000,000 guns. Nope, no problem with that scenario.

Some of those things would be handled better without the government - international trading and food shipments come to mind (having done been a food exporter).We've have more food related illnesses than ever recently - with increased govt "oversight." Instead of getting blamed for this, they use food-scare tactics to increase their control.

Social security would be better off out of the hands of government. If a private pension provider steals your funds, they might go to prison. If the government does it, they just raise your taxes to cover the theft.

CIA/FBI - have these massive agencies really improved your life?

No passports? Great. They are simply a way for the government to restrict the movement of its citizens.

Privatized postal service? It works great in Japan. I wouldn't trust the current US postal service with anything important.

Remember, there's still 10% of the revenue left over, which leaves plenty if spend wisely. Common sense immigration procedures, and effective (not bloated or politicized) military.

Americans love and trust their government more than any country in the world. And they have been trained to be like children, with the government as "daddy." (Or mommy.) That can only end in oppression and/or bankruptcy.
 
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Some ridiculous posting there. What you're suggesting is 10% away from anarchy.

"There would be some chaos, but I think people have more sense than you give them credit for."

Not really, I mean half of them think Jesus is coming back in the clouds.

As far as food, whereever we are call that x. You take away some of that oversight, it'll be better?

Passports are everywhere.

Postal service, I don't have a problem with it. Checking on Japan - "Later in 2010, the privatization was put on hold, and the Japanese Ministry of Finance remains the 100% shareholder."

Military, see history. See Japan liking our military as well since they're not a nuclear power, while the U.S. and China are.

I know you're a Ron Paul fan from pasts posts, scroll up and read the latest I posted about him. So you think that was handled wrong, knowing we got the people responsible? Maybe private enterprise would have done it better?

"Americans love and trust their government more than any country in the world."

While I like for our government to be out of our personal business as much as possible, there are plenty of other countries that would love it. Like those living in Communist countries.

They're not the enemy, they have a role/place.
 
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Some of those things would be handled better without the government - international trading and food shipments come to mind (having done been a food exporter).We've have more food related illnesses than ever recently - with increased govt "oversight." Instead of getting blamed for this, they use food-scare tactics to increase their control.

Social security would be better off out of the hands of government. If a private pension provider steals your funds, they might go to prison. If the government does it, they just raise your taxes to cover the theft.

CIA/FBI - have these massive agencies really improved your life?

No passports? Great. They are simply a way for the government to restrict the movement of its citizens.

Privatized postal service? It works great in Japan. I wouldn't trust the current US postal service with anything important.

Remember, there's still 10% of the revenue left over, which leaves plenty if spend wisely. Common sense immigration procedures, and effective (not bloated or politicized) military.

Americans love and trust their government more than any country in the world. And they have been trained to be like children, with the government as "daddy." (Or mommy.) That can only end in oppression and/or bankruptcy.

In a couple of posts, you seem like you have noodle that works; after reading this latest post, I'm wondering where the guy with some common sense went. What happened to actually thinking about what you are saying and relate that to the overall impact of cutting 90% of the federal budget. Better yet, please list what you think you can have for 10% of the budget. Do you seriously think we can have any sort of "effective" military? What does effective mean to you? How much do you think it costs to put a carrier to sea for a month? Would you mothball the fleet? You think we would be able to stop our borders from being overrun? How? What are you going to do with all the federal prisons and prisoners? How will you stop terrorist attacks with no intelligence agencies or investigatory branches? Who will run the federal communications? You think individual states can agree on sharing resources and protecting resources when necessary instead of exploiting everything for a short term gain? Who do you think will be making decisions for each state? You don't think some states will opt to form a mini- United States, while others will try to form their own nation? How long do you think it will be before one state declares war on another when some states aren't able to get food, fuel, water and/or money to keep their populations from starving or freezing to death? Three years? Five?

If you were involved with food exporting on a major scale, it was with all the federal oversight and agreements that paved your way. But exporting will be the least of our worries, or perhaps the worst, when staring people find out food is being exported for profit and letting them die. Who will safeguard what we import? You think it will be a scare tactic when babies begin dying from eating baby food processed in China and stuffed full of melamine?

You actually believe food inspectors and food safety officials should be blamed for every foodborne illness that occurs? Blaming them is like blaming a fire department for fires starting. Or law enforcement that can't prevent every crime. Without them, who would close down Sunland Peanuts that was spreading Salmonella Bredeney tainted peanut butter all over this time last year? You think they would have stopped manufacturing on their own and shut their business down until everything was clean? If you think that, you have some serious rethinking to do. in fact, you need to re-think now, as your scare tactics comment is so wacky that I can't take it seriously. It's like saying the CDC doesn't deal with a crisis everyday, so what's the point of keeping them. What about air traffic controllers and schools. You think the small pittance paid in property taxes pays for schools? The feds pay around $2500 per student per year to give schools enough money to stay open. That's tens of billions per year. And that doesn't include colleges. Might as well close the schools. We don't need no stinking education, anyway.

Social security would be better off in private hands because the privateers might go to prison for stealing the money? That's your rationale? Good grief. You can't put them in prison when there isn't enough money to waste on the prisons. Did you not consider this? Who would investigate and prosecute that kind of crime, anyway. Not the feds. Who would hammer out all new judicial requirements for intra-state and inter-state crime and punishment issues.

What do you know about the CIA and FBI? You think it's like a Tom Cruise movie? I can speak with certainty that without them it would be open season on the US for terrorists. How could we stop that? Who could catch them afterward? Neighborhood watch?

jeez. You think passports restrict the movements of its citizens? It's not getting out that's the problem. How far would you get trying to enter another country without a passport? How easy do you think it should be to get back into the states?

You wouldn't trust the us postal service with anything important? I'll bet you do all the time. Who would organize and privatize a national post office? You think the rates would be under $1 per letter? packages would go through the roof.

10% is enough if spent wisely? What cereal box did you get that from? Once again, I'd love to see a list. By the way, what happens to the millions of newly unemployed, the sick and the old? Without federal subsidies, where do they live? How do they eat? Maybe you favor just letting as many people die as it takes to reach a sustainable balance?

"That can end only in bankruptcy or oppression"? Are you ill?

Do you have schizophrenia? I ask because after reading your last few posts, it seems like two different people wrote them. unfortunately, it seems the one with common sense has disappeared
 
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"Not really, I mean half of them think Jesus is coming back in the clouds."
No evidence to suggest that the chaos you fear will be predominantly Christian, if that's what you mean. Considering the civilization you love was built upon it, quite the contrary.

About "oversight," why do you assume the federal government is the best entity to provide oversight to what you eat? There are many ways to ensure food safety, and little evidence that the federal government has done anything to help.

I'm not a Ron Paul fan so much as Libertarian leaning. Even they agree a military is a basic functon of government. But ours suffers from bloat, waste and politics that have nothing top do with national defence. Japan, incidentally, is edging toward becoming a nuclear power - partly because they can't trust the US 100% to back them up.

Without following the link, there are 2 questions regarding using police state tactics to pursue the people responsible for bombings:
1-Could the people responsible be apphrehended (or even prevented froma acting) without using police state tactics?
2-Did we really get all the people responsible?

Lastly, yes, there are still people who would love to live in the current USA. That number is shrinking, but I suppose there will always be worse places. Yet this is another illusion created by government/media propaganda. As bad as China is, do you know there are significant numbers of people who would rather live there than the US - and that many are not even Chinese? Granted, there are more people who would choose the US of the two, but it's not nearly so cut and dry and many Americans would believe.
If what you are worried about is your personal business, it depends what that business is. In many cases, the Chinese government is less intrusive than the US government.

Like many Americans, most educated Chinese accept a degree of oppression because they think a weak government would result in chaos. Make of that what you will.

I agree the government has a place, but it seems everyone has forgotten what that place is.

I just caught Verbster's post, so one more...
" Without (the federal government), who would close down Sunland Peanuts that was spreading Salmonella Bredeney tainted peanut butter all over this time last year? You think they would have stopped manufacturing on their own and shut their business down...?"
Yes, I do. Because who is going to buy peanut butter from a company that was spreading salmonella?
For the rest, see above. There are many ways to provide food safety without a million pages of federal regulations. When you say the government "paved the way" for food exports, you really mean "they agreed not to get in the way." Very different things.

"Do you have schizophrenia?" No. I think I'm fairly consistent in what I say, though I may change the way I say it. (Or be occasionally tongue in cheek.)

So far as the FBI/CIA protecting us from terrorists, I recall several people reporting strange-acting guys (before 9/11) who only wanted to learn how to fly a plane, but not land - among other odd behaviors. The 9/11 terrorists were not exactly discrete. The FBI did nothing. I agree we can use investigators and maybe spies. But these agencies are hopelessly politicized and bloated. How would you fix them?
 
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"Not really, I mean half of them think Jesus is coming back in the clouds."
No evidence to suggest that the chaos you fear will be predominantly Christian, if that's what you mean. Considering the civilization you love was built upon it, quite the contrary.

You need to do a little research on why people came to America.

About "oversight," why do you assume the federal government is the best entity to provide oversight to what you eat? There are many ways to ensure food safety, and little evidence that the federal government has done anything to help.
I don't say this much, but I think you have a ground wire disconnected. Tell me three of the many ways to ensure food safety, including food defense, in your 10% Nirvana (other than Wash Your Hands; Don't Cross-Contaminate; Use a Thermometer and such). Little evidence the government has helped? Did you not read my point about the peanut butter outbreak? Or do you mean like the FDA recall warnings that come out nearly everyday alerting stores to remove the products from their shelves immediately? Today it was bits of clear plastic in four different frozen pizzas. Great press release by the way. :hehe:

I'm not a Ron Paul fan so much as Libertarian leaning. Even they agree a military is a basic functon of government. But ours suffers from bloat, waste and politics that have nothing top do with national defence. Japan, incidentally, is edging toward becoming a nuclear power - partly because they can't trust the US 100% to back them up..
Japan is scare to death LiL Kim is going to wake up one moring, have a bowl of Grapenuts and launch a few nukes at Tokyo because he didn't like the color of the sky that morning. It's not because of the USA backing them up; it would be because Kim would know there would be no hesitation by Japan to wipe them off the map.

Bloat, waste and politics. Easy to say. So the solution is to cut its budget 90%. That should make soldiers tougher and fight five times better. I'm still waiting for any kind of proof to anything you've said.

Without following the link, there are 2 questions regarding using police state tactics to pursue the people responsible for bombings:
1-Could the people responsible be apphrehended (or even prevented froma acting) without using police state tactics?
2-Did we really get all the people responsible?.

1. obviously not, as they were able to explode two bombs and would have gone on to New York to explode more had their hostage not escaped.
2.Not yet. but we got some of the folks who helped protect him. maybe there are more. If the dead brother was trained overseas, who do you think has a better chance at catching or killing the trainers, the local city police, a bunch of citizens or the CIA? Who has a better chance of stopping the next attack?
Lastly, yes, there are still people who would love to live in the current USA. That number is shrinking, but I suppose there will always be worse places. Yet this is another illusion created by government/media propaganda. As bad as China is, do you know there are significant numbers of people who would rather live there than the US - and that many are not even Chinese?
"You suppose there will always be worse places?" I noticed you spelled defense with a "c" (defence"). Do you live in one of those "worse places"? Tell me you at least live in the States to give yourself a bit of credibility.

Where did you get that "fact" about who wants to live in China? I love the part about many who are not even Chinese. If they are living there, I reckon most are Chinese, or are you saying many Americans with Chinese heritage would rather live in China? Either way, I don't believe you and invite you to prove me wrong. I lived in China during the Tiananmen Square mini-revolution. Many, if not most, of the younger Chinese love their country. They just don't like the way it's being run. With Western trade now so high, yes, lots of non-Chinese are moving there, but not because they like it better than other places, more because of a job or an adventure. Almost all foreigners leave the country.


Granted, there are more people who would choose the US of the two, but it's not nearly so cut and dry and many Americans would believe.
If what you are worried about is your personal business, it depends what that business is. In many cases, the Chinese government is less intrusive than the US government..

What are you going on about?

Like many Americans, most educated Chinese accept a degree of oppression because they think a weak government would result in chaos. Make of that what you will..
That sound more like a Party line than what educate Chinese believe. It was the educated Chinese that suffered the most not too long ago.

I agree the government has a place, but it seems everyone has forgotten what that place is.
Well, please tell us what that place is, and how you determine how big it needs to be to function appropriately in that place.
 
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In a couple of posts, you seem like you have noodle that works; after reading this latest post, I'm wondering where the guy with some common sense went... Are you ill?

Do you have schizophrenia? I ask because after reading your last few posts, it seems like two different people wrote them. unfortunately, it seems the one with common sense has disappeared

I think I see where our problem is. You did indeed pick up on a different person in my first post. I wrote that after an evening of rather heavy drinking. In fact, it was because I was drunk that I violated my general rule not to join political discussions on the internet.

So, apparently, I only sound sensible to you when I am drunk. That says something interesting about at least one of us.:)

So, I'll just get back to work. And put up an umbrella just in case any missiles rain down from North Korea. (Incidentally, if you're in Alaska, you might want to keep an eye out as well. That's about the only place in the US the Norks can reach. And Fat Boy Kim doesn't like Americans very much either, unless they play in the NBA.)
 
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I see Alaska has made the news again. Seems like one of our former senators, Mike Gravel, is convinced we've been visited by space aliens.
 
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Left and Right wing big media get into conspiracy theories:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_8MsvUilT0"]Chairman Issa Reveals Startling Information on Benghazi Terrorist Attack - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-2c20_KTl8"]Rep. Chaffetz Discusses the Benghazi Investigation on Fox News Sunday - YouTube[/ame]
 
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You guys are really stuck on that abortion issue, huh.

Not as much as liberals seem to be in regards to claiming to be tolerant. Intolerance of human life, it really sticks in the liberal craw, doesn't it?

Liberal Democrats: "We are the tolerant party, as defined by ourselves, only within a niche of humanity that does not include those we choose not to like, especially those who cannot protect themselves."
 
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Not as much as liberals seem to be in regards to claiming to be tolerant. Intolerance of human life, it really sticks in the liberal craw, doesn't it?

Liberal Democrats: "We are the tolerant party, as defined by ourselves, only within a niche of humanity that does not include those we choose not to like, especially those who cannot protect themselves."

Your definition of liberal Democrats is a perfect example of how low the bar for tolerance and behavior has been set for conservative Republicans by conservative Republicans like yourself.

Beyond that, you fail to recognize the difference between moral conviction and tolerating another's moral beliefs. Granted, it overlaps and becomes confusing for many.

A moral belief (often inspired by religious doctrine) is defining something as right or wrong based on your individual values. Tolerance is recognizing that there are people who don't have the same values or moral beliefs as you do yet respecting their rights to their beliefs even though you disagree with them.

In the abortion issue, liberals who are pro choice believe there are two acceptable options that a pregnant person can consider, while conservatives who are pro-life believe there is only one acceptable philosophy that all pregnancies must adhere to. As such, pro choice believers respect the choice pro life people make to always to carry to full term and give birth, but they don't believe a woman should be forced into giving birth, which is also one of the two pro choice options. The tolerance part comes with the second option pro choicers leave open: That pregnant women have the moral and/or legal right to terminate the pregnancy (usually within a time limit). Pro lifers do not recognize this option; however, it goes further than that. Not only do they not voluntarily recognize any choice for termination, be it invasive surgery or a morning after pill, they do not willingly tolerate even considering the choice. At this point, they fall into a category I call "forced tolerance," which simply means since abortion is currently legal, they are forced to tolerate that it happens.

That involuntary tolerance will change when and if abortions again become illegal. It will be like returning to prohibition but with much higher stakes. What happens then is something I can't get any pro-lifers to explain to me. Stuff like if a woman survives an illegal back-alley coat-hangar abortion, is she then guilty of pre-meditated murder and sentenced to death? Does that also hold for anyone who helped her? What happens if drunk dad comes home and beats his wife senseless and rapes his 14 year old daughter? I suppose she has to carry to term? Will there be miscarriage investigations by abortion police? And more scenarios like that.

And either least or most important overlapping issue, I'm not sure, is the apparent hypocrisy of conservative Republicans who claim to be for less big government interference in individual freedoms, yet want to immediately pass a constitutional amendment that forces one group's restrictive morality on the whole nation, which is sort of what people came to the new world to escape.

Finally, turn this issue around to gun control. Imagine the people who want gun control, the ones who want to take away your right to have a gun, to be the same as pro-lifers, and people who want to retain their individual freedom to own guns as the pro-choicers. Look who is screaming not to take our rights away.
 
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why americans want to shoot eahc other
 
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why americans want to shoot eahc other

Top 5 Reasons
  1. Drugs
  2. Money
  3. Street Cred
  4. It's My God Given 2nd Amendment Right
  5. Thought he was Canadian
 
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Top 5 Reasons
  1. Drugs
  2. Money
  3. Street Cred
  4. It's My God Given 2nd Amendment Right
  5. Thought he was Canadian

:hehe:


As for Verbster, yes, some people, specifically liberals, DO have trouble justifying their morality. To them the lines of morality must remain blurred or they will be forced to face some terrible facts. They keep going on and on about a woman's right to kill her off spring while blithely ignoring the child's right to not be killed. It must be quite difficult to maintain the illusion of tolerance when the day comes to an end and all the blah blah self justification noise goes silent. Have a good night, Verbster. Rest well.
 
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:hehe:


As for Verbster, yes, some people, specifically liberals, DO have trouble justifying their morality. To them the lines of morality must remain blurred or they will be forced to face some terrible facts. They keep going on and on about a woman's right to kill her off spring while blithely ignoring the child's right to not be killed. It must be quite difficult to maintain the illusion of tolerance when the day comes to an end and all the blah blah self justification noise goes silent. Have a good night, Verbster. Rest well.

Do you honestly think having an abortion is not a terribly traumatic event for most women? You act like you think a woman who opts to have an abortion has no conscience, no morality and no motherly feelings. Do you think it doesn't cause sleepless nights and anguish that is sometimes almost unbearable, and, yes, guilt of what might have been? You can't possibly know the ordeal many women go through when they face such a difficult decision. Being pro-choice doesn't mean not caring. So, yes, practice a little tolerance for these women. They go through their own kind of hell without you tormenting them.

If you get your way and your intolerant morality outlaws abortion, what happens when a 13 year-old rape victim is forced to give birth to an unwanted child, or when 16 year-old's family disowns her for having sex and kicks her into the street? Your sense of morality and caring savage a young girl's life and would force a 16-year-old to become a 17 year-old mother with no financial or family resources. She would have to do whatever she could to survive. And once you get your way what then happens to those 1.3 million new babies every year? What happens when your smaller tightwad government abandons any sort of aid for the mother or the baby? What happens after all your righteous indignation dies down? Will you sleep the sleep of the righteous? After all, you don't have to deal with the situation anymore. Mission accomplished. You've successfully forced a million women into having a child they weren't ready for and call it good? So yeah, sleep well, knowing how well your morality works when there is no choice, no tolerance and no interest beyond making sure every pregnancy ends with a new baby into the world, wanted or not and regardless of the outcome.

And I noticed you didn't bother to answer any of my questions about what happens if your ilk get their way. What happens when some young girl accidentally gets pregnant, and is so freaked by what her parents would think, that she takes a chance and has a botched abortion that leaves her close to death. If she survives, is it the death penalty for her abortion or life in prison? Would you still feel that way if it's your daughter?

And if abortion is a crime, are you going to have special pregnancy police to check on everyone who buys a pregnancy tester? Going to make doctors report pregnancies like registering guns? Have you even tried to think things through, or do you just think it'll all work out at the end of the day?
 
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:hehe:


As for Verbster, yes, some people, specifically liberals, DO have trouble justifying their morality. To them the lines of morality must remain blurred or they will be forced to face some terrible facts. They keep going on and on about a woman's right to kill her off spring while blithely ignoring the child's right to not be killed. It must be quite difficult to maintain the illusion of tolerance when the day comes to an end and all the blah blah self justification noise goes silent. Have a good night, Verbster. Rest well.

So are you like Ryan, who opposed abortion, even in cases of rape or incest? Where do you stand on that?

Woman gets raped. She wants to abort. If it were up to you, could she? Or would she be forced to have the child? This is for any of the lurking Republicans.
 
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Yeah, I realize that's a tough question for those on the right.

Another victory for rights in this country:

Minnesota expected to legalize same-sex marriage after House passes measure
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...sex-marriage-after-house-passes-measure?lite=

That's a red state too, isn't it. Part of me likes it because of the rights, progression and the other part, is another blow to Social Conservatives. That's state #12. Time the next elections roll around, will be even more. They're going to either have to fold on this issue or stick to their guns and be in the minority.
 
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