Startup “LLLL LLC” now owns "LLLL-LLC.com" wants to UDRP "LLLL.com"?

[GeoFan]

What are the chances this plan could work?

Startup “LLLL LLC” owns LLLL-LLC.com wants to UDRP LLLL.com
due to non-response from the domain name registrant.


Please comment or advise if you have any trademark
and URDP experience or expertise?


••• QUESTION #1 ::

Would getting a Registered Trademark (via USPTO and LegalZoom) be a good way to snag a domain name?


The situation, background, and some details:


The current domain name owner has it parked via an online bidding system, and does not respond to any bids.

They have owned it for more than 12 years, so let’s assume their investment is a total of $150. or perhaps more.

Bid amount, offered via ONLINE bid and via email :: $200. will stretch the marketing budget for this LLC startup.

LLLL is an anonymized substitute for the 4 letters in use for the LLC, a registered LLC in California.

Our domain name now in use is LLLL-LLC.com (4L+3L = 7L :: LLLL-LLC.com) Where “LLLL LLC” is a registered LLC by my client.

My client wants to buy the 4L domain name LLLL.com but the owner does not respond to any bids or emails, so far. We have tried many times. Nothing. No replies whatsoever.

Tried email. Tried bidding. BLACK HOLE. no replies.

It looks like the domain name registrant/admin (DN owner) holds more than 10,000 domains. Tried once a week (both bidding and email ADMIN and REGISTRANT contact) for several weeks. NO REPLY. It may be that OWNER won’t even respond unless the bid is over $5,000 or some arbitrary and undisclosed asking price, perhaps?

. . .


My client, the LLC owner, has a very small marketing budget, it is a new startup.

The LLC was filed by my client more than six months ago.

I am a domain name investor myself, but I cannot stand this cybersquatter who will not even make a counter-offer or respond to any bids or emails. What's up with that? Not businesslike.

If you Google “LLLL” all by itself there are only a very few hits, less than 20, and none within the USA. The main one is a NONPROFIT in Sweden. SO, it seems to me that the LLLL brand has almost no value to any DN investor.




••• A Few More Questions :::


If the DN (LLLL.com) registrant will not respond to reasonable bids (within my client’s marketing budget) and will not make any counteroffer . . .

We plan to Register the Trademarks (LLLL and LLLLLLC, or LLLL LLC) . . . on behalf of our client, the startup LLLL LLC.

. . .

SO . . . What to do now? What is a suggested procedure in this situation?

What are the chances, that we be successful with UDRP?

How long does it take, typically?

How much would it cost, if we do all the work and do all the filing on our own?

Thanks for any help you can offer.


||| ≡≡≡ ||| ≡≡≡ ||| ≡≡≡ |||

 

[Recons.Com]

So, raise the bid from $200 to $500 or $1,500 and see what happens?

It appears that a registered trademark owner would have to be willing to bid at least $1,500 to secure the domain before attempting UDRP?

Cybersquatters who don't even counter offer on a low bid really gum up the works!

So you or your friend registering the name in 2015-2016 entitles you to call someone who held the name for 12 years a cybersquatter? If anything, you are reverse hijacker!

You have no tm, you cannot prove the guy knew about you when he registered the name, and yet you want to take away the name he bought. Maybe he does not respond, because you have the crazy assumption that his costs must be $150 so it is ok to offer $200. I assume you have no clue about time value of money or value of rare valuable items appreciating over their holding cost. Why don't you apply that logic to some Monet painting and try to get it for $xxxx or something? Maybe he has future plans for the name and reserved it for that purpose.

Regardless, your UDRP will cost you around $20K and will be tossed away because you have no rights to the name. Just because you chose a name does not entitle you to all and any domain registered before using that name. Go get LLLL.co, LLLL.net or when choosing the brand do some due diligence and check if the .com is available for sale and then you'll not have to spend $xxxx later on.

 

[GeoFan]

Owner reaffirms that he is happy and more than satisfied with LLLL-LLC. com (and LLLLLLC. com for coverage of branding for now) and does NOT want to nor need to invest in any expensive domain names. It's not envisioned ever to be anything like a global brand. It is a LOCAL SMALL BUSINESS and NOT the type of business that would need any expense for internet marketing whatsoever, the owner asserts. It's a whole different thing than most DN investors would ever think about, and most Internet Marketers would pass this by.

There are less than 20 web pages currently in Google with the "LLLL" present. Most are in Europe or South America, and they are all very random, except for the LLLL. org in Sweden, which seems to have a target audience of a few hundred perhaps. The LLLL .com has very little intrinsic value to anyone it seems, for now. NOBODY uses the 4L brand in any market except for the one NONPROFIT 4L. org in Sweden. So it will be fairly easy to establish this new brand in the target locale.

The DN investor did a fresh reg and paid for 12 annual renewals. The domain has been parked since day one. Pretty small DN investment. However, the value (of any DN) is in the eye of the beholder the prospective buyer. Maybe someday somebody will come along who considers the DN worth owning and could spend more than $500. Not now.

It seems this lottery ticket may be virtually worthless speculation to the DN investor? Maybe they have one hit in 1,000 and that is break even for them.

Not responding with a counteroffer is as much an insult as a low-ball offer. Whoever gives the first price will always lose. $200 was considered a reasonable offer by the STARTUP, while the consultant considered it a remote possibility, and you never know until you try.

Consultant merely looking at possibilities and future options. Simply having a landing page tied to the LLLL LLC is all the owner seems to need or want in order to to have a functional domain name, web page, and email on a business card, a business basic for now, for just about anyone.

Who is to say that this would never become a regional or national brand? Time will tell. For now it is just a LOCAL SMALL BUSINESS STARTUP with very reasonable aspirations.

THIS discussion has provided valuable info to anyone considering TRADEMARK and UDRP, hopefully. All the perspectives and comments are appreciated!

 

[bobbarato]

GeoFan wrote:

"However, the value (of any DN) is in the eye of the beholder the prospective buyer."
and
"Not responding with a counteroffer is as much an insult as a low-ball offer."

Interesting perspectives.

It is good that your client is happy with the existing domain names and is not online centric. For most tech startups, "what domain name(s) will we use" is a top issue.

 

[GeoFan]

Thanks again.

Very interesting and recent LLLL DN discussion here at the Morgan Linton blog ::

http://morganlinton.com/is-now-the-best-time-to-buy-or-sell-llll-coms/

Seems that a top DN PRO is saying LLLL. Com values are on the wane.

Dutch tulip bulbs, anyone?

I've been very sick for two weeks, severe complications from a "routine" surgery procedure. Feeling about 85% better today, but only functioning at 70% of normal. Not thinking as clearly as usual. Seems that I made a few FAUX PAS here.

Probably not a good idea to post when feeling very very ill.

My client's clientele would probably think .co was a misprint or error and type .com instead. Not a good thing.

THIS client's marketing goals are very simple. Having a DN used for a clearly branded URL landing page and a few EMAIL addressses for letterhead, business cards, and other very basic print marketing materials. Very basic goals. ZABZLLC. Com or something like it works just fine...

Not all startups are HIGH TECH! Some are very low-tech!

Every LLLL is different and unique. IF there are no other branding claims on it, if it is unpronounceable, what is it really worth? (( Yes, I have acquired a few novel LLLL.com for personal usage. Never paid more than $100 for any of them. BEGINNERS LUCK? ))

DN PROs are very sensitive about the incendiary word "cyber squatter" perhaps guilty conscience? Holding on to a domain for 12 years as a speculation? Holding over 10,000 domains in a parked state. NOT responding to bids NOT setting a bid guideline... Seems to me akin to cyber squatting.

Still, some interesting perspectives gained here, thanks to NamePros contributors for all the input. Thanks!

 

[Recons.Com]

1. You should read the definition and understand meaning of words before using them. It is cybersquatting when a name is bought with the purpose of targeting someone who (company or person) has a clear cut association with the name. That is very rare, especially for acronyms. I bought an LLLL.com at an auction for over $2,000 over a 7 years ago. There was not a single company with that name. Now there are tens of them using that name and many send stupid low offers, including Chinese low ballers. Of course, I ignore them. Would a BMW dealership respond to your offer of $1000 for a new X5? And why those idiots that decided that LLLL sounds nice think they are entitled to the .com more than anyone else and that they should just pay holding fee? Moreover, just because I am not using it does not mean I can not have future plans to use it. I do develop domains into projects, but many are in the pipeline.

2. You bought LLLL.coms for $100, well many of those costed that much and lower then. Now the floor price is $300 for any random combo, and yet you, a supposed expert, go around suggesting to your client to make a low ball offer of $200, because that is $50 more than holding cost by your inconsiderate and meaningless calculations. Why don't you go and crash furniture stores in your city checking how much they charge over their holding cost? And of course you are clueless what are holding costs. They include searching for names, acquiring them, renewing them, promoting them, writing off the names that don't sell. And then, in the best case, only 1%-3% of the portfolio sells in any given year, meaning any domain name also has to pay for renewal of 30-100 other names.

And why do you assume that if the investor would not have bought the LLLL.com 12 years ago, it would have been available for you to hand reg? Well, believe it or not, many companies are happy to pay $1000-10000 for the name that was reserved for them rather than pay $20K-50K to some borderline business to rebrand themselves and give the name to them.

Anyway, why am I explaining this to a guy that though getting mydotcom.info was a good idea and managed to pursuade his client to get LLLL-LLC with a dash in it? I don't know, probably just should learn to ignore. Oh, well...

 

[dordomai]

There are less than 20 web pages currently in Google with the "LLLL" present. Most are in Europe or South America, and they are all very random, except for the LLLL. org in Sweden, which seems to have a target audience of a few hundred perhaps. The LLLL .com has very little intrinsic value to anyone it seems, for now. NOBODY uses the 4L brand in any market except for the one NONPROFIT 4L. org in Sweden. So it will be fairly easy to establish this new brand in the target locale.

You assume that because no company is using this string there can be no demand for it,

There might well be businesses who would want to use it as an acronym for their brand.

Many believe that LLLL.com will increase in value since they are limited in supply and demand comes from all over the world. Now that developing countries like Brazil, India and China are coming online demand will likely increase.

You just look at the holding costs that is $150 but you can't view that insolation. The owner took a risk when registering the domain and renewing it for many years. This one is worth more than what he invested but some of his other investments might not be.

From a business perspective it would be foolish to give the domain away more less for free.

DN PROs are very sensitive about the incendiary word "cyber squatter" perhaps guilty conscience? Holding on to a domain for 12 years as a speculation? Holding over 10,000 domains in a parked state. NOT responding to bids NOT setting a bid guideline... Seems to me akin to cyber squatting.

Why is not responding Cybersquatting? I have contacted some large corporations that hold thousands of domain names via the WHOIS info and never got a reply from them. That must mean that they are cybersquatting, right?

If you are not clearly targetting a trademark you are not cybersquatting BTW.

To give an example:

If you own domains.com and ask $100 millions for it you are not cybersquatting. As the domain owner it is up to you to respond or not respond to inquiries and you can set the asking price as high as you wish. You don't have to sell the domain you can park it and do what you want as long as you don't break any law.

Seems that a top DN PRO is saying LLLL. Com values are on the wane.

Dutch tulip bulbs, anyone?

You are constantly trying to make the domain seem worthless at the same time you start forum discussions and even think about spending a lot of money to hijack it. Common sense tells me that if you invest so much time and energy in something it must be worth a lot more than $200.

If it is worthless why do you want it in the first place? Just let the fool renew the worthless domain for another 20 years and forget about it.

 

[hxp]

Thanks again.

Very interesting and recent LLLL DN discussion here at the Morgan Linton blog ::

http://morganlinton.com/is-now-the-best-time-to-buy-or-sell-llll-coms/

Seems that a top DN PRO is saying LLLL. Com values are on the wane.

Dutch tulip bulbs, anyone?

I've been very sick for two weeks, severe complications from a "routine" surgery procedure. Feeling about 85% better today, but only functioning at 70% of normal. Not thinking as clearly as usual. Seems that I made a few FAUX PAS here.

Probably not a good idea to post when feeling very very ill.

My client's clientele would probably think .co was a misprint or error and type .com instead. Not a good thing.

THIS client's marketing goals are very simple. Having a DN used for a clearly branded URL landing page and a few EMAIL addressses for letterhead, business cards, and other very basic print marketing materials. Very basic goals. ZABZLLC. Com or something like it works just fine...

Not all startups are HIGH TECH! Some are very low-tech!

Every LLLL is different and unique. IF there are no other branding claims on it, if it is unpronounceable, what is it really worth? (( Yes, I have acquired a few novel LLLL.com for personal usage. Never paid more than $100 for any of them. BEGINNERS LUCK? ))

DN PROs are very sensitive about the incendiary word "cyber squatter" perhaps guilty conscience? Holding on to a domain for 12 years as a speculation? Holding over 10,000 domains in a parked state. NOT responding to bids NOT setting a bid guideline... Seems to me akin to cyber squatting.

Still, some interesting perspectives gained here, thanks to NamePros contributors for all the input. Thanks!

Post all your 4L .com's here, on Namepros, @ $150 BIN each. I dare you.

 

[dordomai]

Post all your 4L .com's here, on Namepros, @ $150 BIN each. I dare you.

He should offer them for $240 BIN if he believes that it is the fair market value + a reasonable $40 gain for holding them for a few years. If he doesn't want to sell them for that price he is cybersquatting.

 

[LucidDomains]

I know this is meant to be a somewhat helpful community, but you don't go onto a domaining forum and ask how do I steal a domain name which is basically what your asking.

I recommend that you should stop giving out advice yourself until you know your subject matter inside out.

I hope the answers here have addressed your issues. If you have any more questions, I'm sure the community would be happy to set you straight.

Best of luck.

 

[HUKU]

DN PROs are very sensitive about the incendiary word "cyber squatter" perhaps guilty conscience? Holding on to a domain for 12 years as a speculation? Holding over 10,000 domains in a parked state. NOT responding to bids NOT setting a bid guideline... Seems to me akin to cyber squatting.

It may seem like cybersquatting but as a matter of fact, it is not and what you seem to be proposing sounds a lot like "Reverse Domain Name Hijacking" which is why you've gathered some opposers. You're post should actually be interesting to Domain Name owners here because it demonstrates a "sense of entitlement" that is quite common and makes no sense at all.

The owner of the (suspected) 10,000 Domains:

(1) Has every right to own any or a large number of them.

(2) Has no obligation to respond to any purchase enquiry.

(3) Has no obligation to develop or sell any of them.

Think of this another way. Let's say the owner of those Domains owns 10,000 Residential Apartments instead of Domain Names. The above 1 - 3 apply in exactly the same way.

Why should it bother you? Put your thinking hat on and you can come up with alternatives - otherwise get some humility and understand that the choice belongs entirely to the owner, who can set ANY price he chooses or NONE at all.

 

[Ali]

Kind of hoping this is an April Fools joke. Smh.

 

[GeoFan]

Kind of hoping this is an April Fools joke. . .

Nailed it!

 

[Recons.Com]

And it is customary to do April 1 jokes on March 31?

 

[GeoFan]

One more thing.. SEO is real.

As a domainer you should know SEO basics and branding, yes?

Having both LLLLLLC. com and LLLL-LLC. com can be used for both SEO and Brand protection purposes.

If you want to know more, this gets highly technical with 301 redirects and REL-Canonical and backlinks.

However I can assure you it STILL works to your (White-Hat SEO) advantage if you do it right.

Keywords in URLs and domain names are not as valuable as they were a few years ago, but it still can help your SERPs significantly.

 

[Ali]

One more thing..

As a domainer you should know SEO basics and branding, yes?

Having both LLLLLLC. com and LLLL-LLC. com can be used for both SEO and Brand protection purposes.

If you want to know more, this gets highly technical with 301 redirects and REL-Canonical and backlinks.

However I can assure you it STILL works to your (White-Hat SEO) advantage if you do it right.

There is nothing complicated about REL-Canonical and 301's.

 

[GeoFan]

And it is customary to do April 1 jokes on March 31?

Depends on your time zone and the International Date Line and keeping your good sense of humor!

 

[Recons.Com]

Depends on your time zone and the International Date Line.

Ok, my apologies... I got fooled twice today on NP )

 

[Ali]

Ok, my apologies... I got fooled twice today on NP )

Did you at least find the rabbit?

 

[Recons.Com]

Did you at least find the kitty?

I did ) I would have found it right away if it was not over "chat" link, so my natural assumption was it is chat text that is overlayed over chat link, but somehow got stuck )) That is my excuse, anyway

 

[Ali]

I did ) I would have found it right away if it was not over "chat" link, so my natural assumption was it is chat text that is overlayed over chat link, but somehow got stuck )) That is my excuse, anyway

Don't worry, it took me a couple clicks too. lol

 

[Recons.Com]

So half machine thing is not that helpful? )))))

 

[Smittytec]

So, raise the bid from $200 to $500 or $1,500 and see what happens?

It appears that a registered trademark owner would have to be willing to bid at least $1,500 to secure the domain before attempting UDRP?

Cybersquatters who don't even counter offer on a low bid really gum up the works!

You'd think so but I had a company offer only $100 for NewMD.com just to begin the arbitration process. I don't think they had any intention of purchasing the domain from me. They trademarked the name NueMD and claimed that my domain was confusingly similar and that I was profiting from their fame. I'm surprised that they didn't offer a more reasonable amount rather than spend as much as they did and lose the case. I would have been much more receptive had they simply been polite to begin with.

 

[Ali]

So half machine thing is not that helpful? )))))

Sadly, I took the week off and the half machine is getting serviced =/

 

[Recons.Com]

You'd think so but I had a company offer only $100 for NewMD.com just to begin the arbitration process. I don't think they had any intention of purchasing the domain from me. They trademarked the name NueMD and claimed that my domain was confusingly similar and that I was profiting from their fame. I'm surprised that they didn't offer a more reasonable amount rather than spend as much as they did and lose the case. I would have been much more receptive had they simply been polite to begin with.

No surprise here. The show is run by their lawyer advisers. They have no interest in quick and easy resolution. They are interested in getting paid $200-500 an hour for as long as possible. That is why I never enter into agreements with lawyers, accountants, consultants etc. that is based on hourly pay. There is an obvious conflict of interests. I will always hire on lump sum basis, whenever possible.

 

[domainsoup]

If I owned LLLL.com and somebody offered me $200, I would not bother to reply.

Lowball bidders really gum up the works!

I'm obviously not a pro domainer.

It's not that there are some domainers that use FAKE contact info and will not answer ANY offers.

You could offer $1,000,000 for crapdomainx.com...but if they own it they will NEVER answer you. Because their e-mail is either fake or not checked.

The sad reality is that a UDRP in some cases is the ONLY way of getting hold of these people who DO NOT want to get contacted.

Daruna LLC is an example of this. Huge portfolio. But everyone who has tried to contact this company to purchase a domain from their portfolio fails. No response ever. The ONLY guy who did filed a UDRP and lost. Then he got the companies attention and was able to buy it. I don't understand why some people who own so many domains have no interest in being contacted.