Startup “LLLL LLC” now owns "LLLL-LLC.com" wants to UDRP "LLLL.com"?

[GeoFan]

What are the chances this plan could work?

Startup “LLLL LLC” owns LLLL-LLC.com wants to UDRP LLLL.com
due to non-response from the domain name registrant.


Please comment or advise if you have any trademark
and URDP experience or expertise?


••• QUESTION #1 ::

Would getting a Registered Trademark (via USPTO and LegalZoom) be a good way to snag a domain name?


The situation, background, and some details:


The current domain name owner has it parked via an online bidding system, and does not respond to any bids.

They have owned it for more than 12 years, so let’s assume their investment is a total of $150. or perhaps more.

Bid amount, offered via ONLINE bid and via email :: $200. will stretch the marketing budget for this LLC startup.

LLLL is an anonymized substitute for the 4 letters in use for the LLC, a registered LLC in California.

Our domain name now in use is LLLL-LLC.com (4L+3L = 7L :: LLLL-LLC.com) Where “LLLL LLC” is a registered LLC by my client.

My client wants to buy the 4L domain name LLLL.com but the owner does not respond to any bids or emails, so far. We have tried many times. Nothing. No replies whatsoever.

Tried email. Tried bidding. BLACK HOLE. no replies.

It looks like the domain name registrant/admin (DN owner) holds more than 10,000 domains. Tried once a week (both bidding and email ADMIN and REGISTRANT contact) for several weeks. NO REPLY. It may be that OWNER won’t even respond unless the bid is over $5,000 or some arbitrary and undisclosed asking price, perhaps?

. . .


My client, the LLC owner, has a very small marketing budget, it is a new startup.

The LLC was filed by my client more than six months ago.

I am a domain name investor myself, but I cannot stand this cybersquatter who will not even make a counter-offer or respond to any bids or emails. What's up with that? Not businesslike.

If you Google “LLLL” all by itself there are only a very few hits, less than 20, and none within the USA. The main one is a NONPROFIT in Sweden. SO, it seems to me that the LLLL brand has almost no value to any DN investor.




••• A Few More Questions :::


If the DN (LLLL.com) registrant will not respond to reasonable bids (within my client’s marketing budget) and will not make any counteroffer . . .

We plan to Register the Trademarks (LLLL and LLLLLLC, or LLLL LLC) . . . on behalf of our client, the startup LLLL LLC.

. . .

SO . . . What to do now? What is a suggested procedure in this situation?

What are the chances, that we be successful with UDRP?

How long does it take, typically?

How much would it cost, if we do all the work and do all the filing on our own?

Thanks for any help you can offer.


||| ≡≡≡ ||| ≡≡≡ ||| ≡≡≡ |||

 

[DU]

WIPO is ~$1500 filing fee only which is partially refundable if settlement made.
Your chances of winning is probably 0-5%

 

[GeoFan]

So, raise the bid from $200 to $500 or $1,500 and see what happens?

It appears that a registered trademark owner would have to be willing to bid at least $1,500 to secure the domain before attempting UDRP?

Cybersquatters who don't even counter offer on a low bid really gum up the works!

 

[bobbarato]

If I owned LLLL.com and somebody offered me $200, I would not bother to reply.

Lowball bidders really gum up the works!

I'm obviously not a pro domainer.

 

[DU]

So, raise the bid from $500 to $1,500 and see what happens?

You said "$200. will stretch the marketing budget for this LLC startup." ? Which is it?

An LLLL to a large domain investor? You've probably not got off to a great start with $200 (lowball?)

You're likely going to be out of your LLC budget on this name - offer the real maximum you can afford and hope imho. Then settle on a different domain

Furthermore - and I mean this constructively - throwing around the term cybersquatter when it's not really applicable won't win you many friends.

 

[forge]

Your entitlement attitude is frankly reprehensible. You claim to be a domain investor while characterizing another domain owner as a cybersquatter when you know absolutely nothing about them or how they acquired the domain? Your client has no rights to the domain whatsoever.

 

[hxp]

What you're attempting to do is called "Reverse Domain Hijacking".

I feel sorry for your clients.

 

[ZapNano]

You got lots of interesting questions there.

Current Situation: StartUp want to acquire 4L from Mr.So&so
LLC= is own by your client?
LLLL= 4L, is own by Mr.So&so?
4L= your client want to own?
LLLL-LLC= you client want to file a trademark for this name and UDRP?

Because: A.) You want to get the LLLL that you don't own?
B.) Mr.So&so did not response your inquiries of this & that?
C.) You want better result for both parties?

Reasonable & Fair: What would you do? First, you don't own the 4L, and as you mentioned Mr.So&so owned that domain for 12 years? However, you priced the name based on the market 12 years ago? Dude, you mentioned you are a domain investors? Please...

Conclusion: YOU DO NOT OWN THAT NAME! Mr.So&so does. If you want that name pay for it. Problem solve!! Just an opinion and optional...

 

[FPForum]

It's pretty simple I'd say... The trademark came after the domain was already registered, so this wouldn't hold up in court. The startup would file it, pay a bunch of money, and still lose. But hey, maybe then they'd at least be able to reach the owner of it. If it were me, I'd personally go out of my way to make sure they never got their hands on it after that, lol.

 

[wwwweb]

Domain owner is under no obligation to respond to your emails, they owe you nothing.

If you play your little game, you will lose, and most likely be labeled a Reverse domain hijacker, all the same time the price of the domain will skyrocket 100X, out of spite.

LLLL.com can sell for excess of $10,000+ just on namepros, why are you wasting everyone's time with these poor student $200 offers?

 

[forge]

A truly successful startup will never take the victim stance. They will think smarter, because there are ALWAYS options.

 

[Josytal]

With hundreds of new extensions as options, waiting out there and begging to be grabbed, why bang your head against the wall for the impossible com?

You'd better register your LLLL with a new gtld, before I (or some else) grab it.
Run!
Act fast!

 

[Apprich]

if startup doesn't have budget minimum than WIPO filing fee $1500 then that startup shouldn't dream about getting .com go with other extensions or make a reasonable offer.

 

[GeoFan]

Reasonable LLLL.com valuation?

It just happens that I have acquired more than a few nice LLLL.com for under $150 each over the last five years. Average price paid was actually under $100 each. So, I have some (but only a little) experience in this area, and have never paid more than $200 for any domain name in my portfolio or that of any of my clients. Just lucky I guess?

One of my clients had a really nice domain name, which he actually used as a secondary landing page for his business. When he forgot to renew it, after 45 days, somebody grabbed it, and they wanted $200 for it. He refused to pay it, A year later, they didn't renew it, and he got it back the very next year for under $15.

Note ::
LLLL is anonymized for the purposes of this discussion.

The real LLLL-LLC is a new startup with a tiny marketing budget.

LOOKS SOMETHING LIKE THUS:

RIXR-LLC

where RIXR is an abbreviation created simply for LLC branding purposes.

This is a totally meaningless LLLL with VERY little extrinsic value. Used only to establish A SIMPLE BRAND for a very small local business.

The business owner is happy using his LLLL-LLC . COM which we have acquired (a virgin, new REG) and established a simple landing page. He is happy for now. But, I am looking down the road, what happens later, if his business takes off?

:::

If you Google “LLLL” all by itself there are only a very few hits, less than 20, and none within the USA.

The main hit in Google is a NONPROFIT in Sweden. LLLL.org

SO, it seems to me that the LLLL brand currently has almost no value to any DN investor.

 

[GeoFan]

Footnotes ...

By the way, thanks for all the very very interesting input and professional DN investor perspective.

. . I must admit I'm quite an amateur at this. But I do have some limited experience over the last 10 years with more than a few hundred domain names.

. . One of my clients acquired (in a bulk transaction) a whole bunch of domain names, many of them looked really good, we marketed the hell out of them, over a period of a few years, using HIGHLY TARGETED cold-calls and emails and postcards! We created many custom landing pages, with good SEO. However, none of them sold. Really became jaded about the DN Marketplace due to that experience.

 

[Messiah]

He is happy for now. But, I am looking down the road, what happens later, if his business takes off?

If the business takes off, why not pay more and buy the domain name later ?

Just because your client has registered a trademark years after the domain was first registered, will not help you win the domain name in UDRP. But then again, if you win the domain by reverse domain hijacking, be prepared to be called as domain hijacker and be in the light of HallOfShame.com. Which startup would like that?

it seems to me that the LLLL brand currently has almost no value to any DN investor.

You cannot say if a domain holds a value to a domain investor or not just based on search volumes in Google. Domain Investing is a Business which is completely legal.

 

[GeoFan]

Ok. Thanks for your perspectives.

My client, the LLC business owner, is currently very happy with his LLLL-LLC.com. Since he said his budget for a domain name is about $200, looks like the LLLL.com is out of the question, since the current owner is a huge DN investor with tens of thousands of domain names in their inventory...

My limited experience in acquiring several good LLLL.com at under $100 each must be highly irregular, UNusual, and out of the ordinary, it now seems to me. Beginners luck I guess.

 

[dordomai]

Ok. My client, the LLC business owner, is currently very happy with his LLLL-LLC.com. Since he said his budget for a domain name is about $200, looks like the LLLL.com is out of the question, since the current owner is a huge DN investor with tens of thousands of domain names in their inventory...

My limited experience in acquiring several good LLLL.com at under $100 each must be highly irregular.

1.In the past year prices have risen a lot and floor price is $300-$2000 depending on the type. That is the reseller value. End user value willl be much higher. On average 4 figures. At least.

2.Why is the owner a cybersquatter and what has he done wrong? He is in no way obligated to respond to your emails. He can do what he wants with the domain as long he doesn't infringe on a trademark.

3.Why do you believe a local startup with a $200 dollar marketing budget is entitled to get a matching 4L.com for $200?

I would say either pay or if they don't want to pay then they need to accept that they can not have a 4L.com domain.

This is a totally meaningless LLLL with VERY little extrinsic value

so meaningless and so little value that you want to hijack it.

 

[Asfas1000]

I would convince the owner to make an offer in the $5,000-$10,000 range and see if this elicits a response.

 

[premkumar]

Ok. Thanks for your perspectives.

My client, the LLC business owner, is currently very happy with his LLLL-LLC.com. Since he said his budget for a domain name is about $200, looks like the LLLL.com is out of the question, since the current owner is a huge DN investor with tens of thousands of domain names in their inventory...

My limited experience in acquiring several good LLLL.com at under $100 each must be highly irregular, UNusual, and out of the ordinary, it now seems to me. Beginners luck I guess.

4l.com under $100 is a history, if you get $1200 for chip i buy each one of it. and non chip now goes $300 to $500.

 

[Kate]

Wow.

Would getting a Registered Trademark (via USPTO and LegalZoom) be a good way to snag a domain name?

Already addressed above. This won't work. It's going to cost more than your meager $200 offer anyway. Trying this will probably result in a finding of reverse hijacking and damage your position and reputation.

They have owned it for more than 12 years, so let’s assume their investment is a total of $150. or perhaps more.

Bid amount, offered via ONLINE bid and via email :: $200. will stretch the marketing budget for this LLC startup.

So your 'generous' offer translates to a staggering profit of $50 for the other party. Not to mention the time spent and administrative overhead to handle the transfer.
Basically you are just asking for a great domain name to be given away for free.
If you say the owner is a domain investor, then you should know he is not looking for that kind of return.

I am a domain name investor myself, but I cannot stand this cybersquatter who will not even make a counter-offer or respond to any bids or emails. What's up with that? Not businesslike.

No, you are not businesslike.
We receive inquiries/spam almost every day for LLL.com, and LLLL.com (less often). Most come from people who are just curious, or not serious (like you). It's not even worth the time to reply. Engaging with the tire-kickers is a distraction.
Think about it, the lack of reply is also a form of answer. It means your opening offer has flopped.

What are the chances, that we be successful with UDRP?

UDRP: even more expensive. Starting from $1500 without lawyer fees, and you are going to lose it since you cannot demonstrate the domain holder is hurting your brand any way.
It is completely mind-boggling that you are contemplating hostile and expensive action, instead of making a better offer.

My client, the LLC business owner, is currently very happy with his LLLL-LLC.com.

Let's get serious for a moment.
What is the yearly turnover of your client ? You say it's a startup, but it must already be making money right ?
How much do they spend on offline/online advertising every year ?
What are their operating costs like ?
How much do you charge them for your services ? What will you do for $50 ? Just writing this post if worth $50 of my time.

 

[GeoFan]

It's a small, local-business startup and has no profit or even income forecast for this year.

Marketing budget is $200 for the year. (Local, small-business, startup in planning stages now.)

Registered LLLL-LLC .com and LLLLLLC. com for now. Both pointed to a simple landing page for now. REL-Canonical of course for SEO value down the road.

Using LLLL ™ (TM) for now, and planning to file with USPTO (via LegalZoom) next year.

You know, 80% or more of all startups fail in first two years. Of course, this one is very different! We will succeed, due to our unique strategic position, naturally!

Thinking (erroneously) that maybe with the USPTO ® Registered Trademark, the WIPO UDRP would be automatic, at a cost of $1,500. Not the case, now understood. Lessons learned.

As soon as marketing budget exceeds $3,000 (probably in a few years) we can make a more interesting bid for the LLLL. com and see what happens. By then, my client will have invested more in the branding.

Thanks to all the DN PROS here for your useful inputs and a good discussion!

 

[hxp]

It's a small, local-business startup and has no profit or even income forecast for this year.

Marketing budget is $200 for the year.

Registered LLLL-LLC .com and LLLLLLC. com for now.

Move on.

 

[DomainVP]

I don't understand...

Business Technology Advisor to several clients who are non-technical but have registered several hundreds of domain names...

You are asking domain TM/IP experts here on NamePros for advice how one of your clients can attempt to trample over the rights of a 'cybersquater' (your words).

Isn't that supposed to be you? Isn't that your job?

Sounds like the typical "web guy" I run into often.

The "Web Guy" is always the worst because they know very little about the current domain marketplace/UDRP/TM and yet represent themselves as if they are all-knowing. This leads to poor advice given to an end user, which results in the crushing of simple transactions.

That's where the 'gummng up' of the process truly lies.

Defiantly going to link to this thread to cite on how 'professional advice' can steer you wrong.

 

[Kate]

Maybe the LLC should have thought more before settling on a crappy domain. Probably they have been ill-advised by their internet consultant
The result is that they are already questioning their present domain name and thinking about an upgrade. At least they get this.

Assuming that the venture will likely fail within two years, I would say it's no big deal because the LLLL.com domain is already a liquid asset that can be resold later - most likely at a profit. The LLLL-LLC will just be dropped because it has no value.