.us Petition for Ron Jackson to further discuss "ccTLDs- Is North America Immune" panel

[Jaco]

http://www.dnjournal.com/lowdown.htm

After Latona's opening comments, the show's first business session got underway with Neustar's Ken Hansen and Steve Smith of WebNames joining me in a panel discussion titled ccTLDs are Taking Over the World - Is North America Immune? The session, moderated by Rick Silver, covered the prospects for America's .US extension and Canada's .CA as they try to gain recognition on a continent where they have been overshadowed by .com.

(L to R in the photo above) Ron Jackson (DN Journal), Ken Hansen (Neustar, operator of the
.US registry) and Steve Smith (registrar Webnames) discuss the prospects for .US and .CA.

With conference activity to cover almost around the clock, I won't have time to get into the specifics of the business sessions until we produce our comprehensive conference review article a few days after the conference ends but I can say that the overall consensus from this seminar was that .US and .CA are both making slow but steady progress as more businesses use the extensions (in the case of .US, Maserati.us, Shell.us, Transamerica.us, Hitachi.us, BASF.us and Carrabas.us are just a few examples) and search engines giving them favorable positions in local search results.

Please provide an overview of this and discuss in the greatest detail possible.

Signed

Jaco

 

[Carlton]

I just saw a commercial for Shell Oil on prime time TV. The website displayed was Shell.US. Excellent. Came here to mention it and saw Shell.us listed above in Jaco's post.

 

[jmcc]

Please expand on this comment further; it will be great if you could explain this in more details.

It would probably require a detailed blog post but basically there are a few characteristics that distinguish a ccTLD from a gTLD. Some of the points are just rehashes of what I have said earlier.

1. A ccTLD has a limited and clearly defined target market.
A ccTLD is a country code TLD. Its primary target market is its country. This gives it an element of self-identification in that registrants identify with their country whether are a local or national level. This kind of geographically based self-identification is not present in gTLDs.

2. Most domainers think in gTLD terms rather than ccTLD terms.
Unless there is a dominant local ccTLD, domainers will be focused on gTLDs for their speculation. And .us has the .com as a competitor.

3. Navigation in ccTLDs is different to navigation in gTLDs.
This is one of my theories about ccTLDs. People remember the name of a place and the location of that place. A ccTLD is like a city or even a country in that people know and remember, to some extent, the sites that they regularly visit. They think locally. The gTLDs don't have that local element. There is that sense of "us" about a ccTLD that a gTLD does not have. The type-in traffic in .com is due to people typing in a term and expecting that such a website exists. The volume of type-in traffic appears to make this kind of direct navigation work because the traffic is coming from everywhere. However with ccTLDs, the majority of the traffic will be typically be from that country. People from outside that country searching for something in a ccTLD will typically use a search engine thus bypassing the whole type-in traffic route. This is why gTLD domainers tend to be way out of their depth when it comes to ccTLD speculation - the .eu ccTLD landrush fiasco being the classic example of the failure of .com speculative rules to what in effect was 27 ccTLD markets.

4. An active ccTLD has high development and utilisation.
A ccTLD will have an apparently higher level of development because it is more focused and there is a greater motivation to develop.

5. A mature ccTLD has a high level of of Uniqueness.
A mature ccTLD has a higher number of domains that exist only in that ccTLD compared to the gTLDs. (15% or more) This is because these domains often belong to businesses primarily targeting that country and they don't need to dilute their brand by confusing their customers with a .com domain. Even if many businesses have gTLD equivalent registrations, the ccTLD website will be the main one and the other domains will be 301ed to that site.

the question is how much room there is for .US to grow and what would be a realistic expectation for this extension in the future

Short term, (five years), with a development strategy rather than a park and forget strategy, 10 million.

what could be done to accelerate the acceptance of .US within the United States so that it could get to its optimum market share sooner.

Development. Usage. Marketing. Branding. (An easy to remember acronym for registries. )

When comparing the number of registrations of .US to the ones from other global TLDs it is important to keep in mind that only the portion of the registrations of those global TLDs that are specific to the United States should be used in the comparison, although I realize that it might be difficult to figure out the exact percentage for that.

It is a difficult problem from a theoretical viewpoint but I have an advantage. I have already done this kind of work before to determine Irish owned domain names in com/net/org/biz/info that were not hosted on Irish web hosters. That was based on finding thousands of domain names out of tens of millions of domains.

Regards...jmcc

 

[domainica]

Hey, if Ken Hansen says .us is making progress, there certainly isn't any reason to doubt him.:lol:

 

[DotUSDomains]

Since .com still overshadows .US in America, Latona has not been a big fan of the extension, but Sequeira said Neustar was ready to start spending money to raise the profile of .US (as well as .biz, a global TLD that Neustar also administers).

Sequeira said that .US fell behind in the race for mind share because the ccTLD had been reserved for government use until the spring of 2002. By the time it was finally opened up to the general public, .com had become the default extension for most Americans.

Many current .US portfolio holders think the brand is a natural with great potential, but believe that the registry has let it wither on the vine for the past seven years. "I know there has been some criticism that we have
not done a lot of promotion or advertising to make .US more visible, but doing that will be a major priority for us in 2009," Sequeira said. "One of the main reasons I am at this conference is to build awareness for .US and .biz and this year I think you will see that we continually have things out in the marketplace for both brands."
"We did a survey that showed that people really like the .US brand but they have some reservations because they just don't see it a lot," Sequeira said. "We learned that we have to work with registrars and resellers to the end user market to build visibility for the .US brand."

We will be doing more advertising and are also looking at an incentive program aimed at end users. If they register or buy a .US domain for their site we would reward them with some sort of incentive that hasn't been settled on yet. We as a company are willing to spend some money and we are willing to partner with people to do what it takes to build the space."

The above is from feb 2009.

Did that happen ? NO
Will This happen ? NO

It sounds familiar

dont hold them to there word, thats a good lesson.

the contracts up for there year extension, < thats when neustar come out to play for a little while.

rinse and repeat next year about this time.

 

[acc]

I just saw a commercial for Shell Oil on prime time TV. The website displayed was Shell.US. Excellent. Came here to mention it and saw Shell.us listed above in Jaco's post.

Nice spot Carlton, even if not everyone here appreciates it.

FYI - Funny you should mention it as I also just saw a brand new commercial on TV during the evening news today using a .US extension website: TENA.us Specialists in incontinence and bladder weakness protection products - They have the .com in use as the main live website, along with many other ccTLD sister sites. Local marketing using the market's ccTLD - nice example. This particular company also has many gTLDs regged, serious brand protectors.

It will take time for many in the US to look beyond just .com like the rest of the world. Myopia can be corrected but needs diagnosis first. Most US companies don't realize how narrow .com-only thinking is.

And unfortunately Neustar doesn't appear to care a wit about promoting .US. Too small a part of their overall business I guess. Speaking of being myopic, Neustar ... HELLLLLLOOOOOO .... letting a potential cash cow like .US extension starve due to lack of promotion like this is business-insanity. Your marketing guys should be getting negative bonuses. The .US extension should have around 5-10x as many active regs as it does now. Potential for .US registrations and renewals is staggering considering:

US: 300 million population and only 1.6M .US regs
UK: 60 million population and 8M regs
DE: 80 million population and 13M regs

There is some hope. Registrations are growing slowly but steadily. Adoption is slow but I have seen more .US sites now than before and notice more whois records showing non-domainer registrants.

Every new TLD that comes out no matter how well accepted (by stubborn self-interested domainers) and adopted (by actual companies) chips away at the ".com-only internet" castle. Dot com is its own kind of big beautiful walled garden, but there is plenty of life growing outside the walls and the pie is sure to grow making room for all.
.

 

[Kate]

I believe in .us being uniquely relevant for US-based end users.
But I don't believe it's good for pure play domaining right now (in Snoop parlance )

The reseller market is a reflection of the poor market.
Look at the LLL.us, they sell for much less than 4-5 years ago. Actually many just don't sell at all. I actually think the market has deteriorated. I remember the enthusiasm when business.us sold for reportedly 100K. We have not seen a repeat of such a feat (other than the video.us fiasco).

.us lacks mindshare because there are not many big, well-known sites, that people visit on a daily basis.
In other countries things are different. The local extension is not seen as a second or third choice.

As for my .us portfolio I am not even expecting to make sales in the near future, instead I will instead give serious consideration to developing them.

A few people like Brad know how to make a good return on it, but after 5 years of holding .us domains my view is that there is little money in .us for domainers, and money can be better spent elsewhere. In the past my opinion was that .us was late and would 'naturally' catch up with other ccTLDs, now I believe that it doesn't have to happen - after all each market is different. The US has a number of peculiarities that you don't find elsewhere.

 

[jmcc]

Agree with the general theme here. Though talking about Ron specifically though I don't think that he has really been painting a picture that is all that rosey. To some extent though his role is to promote the industry so you can't really expect alot of pieces on domain industry layoffs and bankruptcies.

The sales data on DNJ is very interesting but some of Ron's fanboy journalism where nothing really bad happens to TLDs gets a bit much at times.

Certainly though I'd say though in regards to new tlds the main problem has been over speculation.

Speculation is good when the TLD has development to support it. Without a serious development trend in a TLD, speculation on its own will kill off a TLD. They have to operate together.

People coming in with expectations that are way too high. That has be driven by registrars/registries perhaps but the main culprit is speculators themselves who are constantly hoping for the second coming.

Or they are hoping to make back their losses on the last new TLD. The same mistakes were being made from .info/.biz onwards through .eu, .mobi, .asia and .tel.

The end results is that if these extensions had a 5% chance of having success without speculation it is probably down to 0% once you add in all the speculators holding names.

Speculation and brand protection drive the Sunrise and Landrush phases of new TLDs but they need ongoing development to survive. The .asia sTLD stats for 2008 ( HosterStats.com: Detailed .asia Statistics 2008 ) illustrates this curve perfectly. The cross TLD comparison of .asia shows that it is only 3.9759% unique. That means that when compared with com/net/org/biz/info/mobi/tel, only 7259 .asia domains are registered in .asia only. The way that .asia is losing domains, it will be lucky to stabilise around 175K domains this year.

I can't see a way out of this situation for new tlds, personally I think pretty much everything that comes out will not do well long term.

Some will fail. Some will become zombie TLDs (zTLDs) with little new registration activity. Others will do well. And a very few will be million plus registrations successes.

One of the problems of dealing with a ccTLD like .us is that the obvious comparison is made with .com TLD figures. This is a classic mistake because it compares a ccTLD (limited geographical market) with a global TLD (global market). Even comparing .us with the numbers of US hosted .com domains does not work because many of these domains will be owned by non-US registrants who are using US hosting (Godaddy is the biggest hoster in the world with approximately 23% of the gTLD domain market). All ccTLDs are competing with .com TLD. The sign of a strong ccTLD is that it has more registrations than the number of gTLD domains registered in its country. The .us ccTLD has a long way to go because the .com is so deeply psychologically embedded that it is difficult to dislodge. The first step would be to position .us domains as a "must register" domain on shopping carts. This would require proper marketing, branding and cooperation with US registrars and resellers and a lot of that is down to the registry promoting the ccTLD.

Regards...jmcc

---------- Post added at 08:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:00 AM ----------

For years we've been getting these search strings for different alt tlds and new extensions. Not once has anyone done any real analysis like a comparison to the total size of the google index (which has grown rapidly over time) or the growth of other extensions.

There's only one reliable way of measuring the usage in a TLD and that's by actually checking each individual site and categorising its usage. It is a tough process but for .us ccTLD, it would probably take a month to do properly. I recently did the monthly Irish websites survey (approx 250K websites) and it takes a few days to process the results because there is a limited number of languages (Irish and English) and I've already written the parsers to detect all those different flavours of parked and holding pages. The mickey mouse "sampling" methodology that I've seen some consultancies use is just that - mickey mouse methodology because you've got to check every domain to be certain and classify duplicate content websites effectively.

In short the argument is always that extension ".[insert any extension]" is growing quickly yet what what most domainers can see with their own eyes is very different.

The .eu is a classic example of this - most of the EU political and regulation websites use .eu ccTLD now and they account for the bulk of the pages seen in a site:.eu search. But when you check on a site by site basis, the numbers of developed .eu websites are down there with the numbers of developed .biz websites. Each country (apart from the ones with a broken ccTLD) is operating on a .com/.ccTLD axis and the numbers of .net/.org/.biz/.info/.mobi/.asia domains registered in those countries falls off dramatically the further away the TLD is from .com/.ccTLD.

Regards...jmcc

 

[snoop]

That has been at the heart of much of the growth problems experienced the new TLDs launched over the last few years. It is a great way for building registration volume but it doesn't necessarily encourage development. Perhaps domain registries have to encourage development rather than just marketing to domainers? It also runs the risk of creating a bubble TLD.

Regards...jmcc

I think they have tried that and it had largely failed, kids.us, .mobi, if I remember rightly other registries tried it also. The thing is if you marketing towards endusers each customer is going to be worth $5 per year (ie one domain regsitration). Plus how exactly do you target these people?

Each domainer customers is probably worth hundreds/thousands per year. Plus you can easily market to those domainers, just go to a domain conference it market it then auction off the best names and you have a captive market & revenue.

---------- Post added at 05:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:18 PM ----------

Not in this recession. Not when I see domainers selling domains here in this forum for $20, having paid $380 for that same domain two years ago.

As far as Neustar spending money on the "promotional campaigns" they promise at domainer conventions, I just don't see it, and I lurk in all the usual domainer forums. Do you have an example?

Snoop, when I think about the amount of BS you spew, I liken in to Mr. Creosote vomiting on the back of the maid (cleaning the floor on hands and knees) in Monte Python's, "The Meaning Of Life." It shoots out like water from a fire hose.

I think it is pretty obvious that domainers are the clearest way for a new registry to obtain sales. The recession doesn't mean marketing to enduser suddenly makes snse. If it did new regsitries would be doing that as opposed to targeting domainers.

Regarding marketing campaigns, kids.us is a very good example of that. Sending staff out to conferences is another. You do realize that when they tell you at a conference that they are working on a big new campaign that is the campaign, ie sending staff to conferences to tell you how good things are looking?

 

[ecigs.net]

I think everyone makes valid points here. But the best way to promote .us is through development of .us sites.

Very true. That's the entire truth for all new, none COM TLDs. Without a few important sites using the extension (like ORG has Wikipedia), people will never notice these TLDs. And why should they? The internet is for information. Most of the great .US keyword domains are parked. Zero information to be found anywhere. Talk about lack of vision. If all you can do with business.us or news.us is park them, maybe you shouldn't be allowed to use them at all. Parking a name like new.us makes that person the worst entrepreneur on earth.

 

[acc]

Both sdsinc and DotUSDomains got it right - just two press releases on their .us registry website since 2003 and hardly any meaningful visible promotion of the extension show that the .us registry effort is stagnant, pathetic, and totally inexcusable. It is a poor example of how to run a business and totally ignore potential new clients. (Beyond just domainers.)

A while back in this thread, it was mentioned that government-related entities and educational entities in the USA have used .gov, .edu, .mil extensions for their active websites in addition to the .us used by cities, towns, etc. So add those up and then add all the (mostly small and medium sized) businesses using straight .us sites and there are a good number of defacto .us ccTLD users. (Beyond the 1.6M .us domain registrations) Too bad they're not all operating under the ".us" extension flagship. If that was the case .us usage would be closer to that of .de/.co.uk/more.ccTLDs IMO.

Most everybody in the USA knows what .gov and .edu mean and what to expect on those websites. I believe that every single college student probably has an active email address using a .edu extension under his/her college's name. Active college age students attending at some kind of college in the US number somewhere in the 10-15 million range. (I don't know the exact number but base that guess on the approx 4 million US residents of each age, and many are enrolled in 4-year schools plus graduate programs.) Can you imagine the new added exposure if just US colleges used .US instead of or in addition to .edu? Or more realistically since .edu is ingrained, at least if .us was promoted to college students?

IDEA: The .US registry should develop some kind of yearly promo or web design contest based on the entrants using the .US extension. Web design, marketing, business, and many other curriculum classes now include focusing the internet as a method to deliver messages and offer products and services. Encourage professors and teachers to include presentation of .US as an option for American students.

Offer scholarships as prizes for individual and group entries. That kind of thing could easily be expanded to high school students. How would that work for adding more exposure for the near-hidden .us extension?

Tap into the young, still-impressionable mindset. Expand their thinking to include looking beyond just .com/.org/.edu and to .US. It only took Myspace, Facebook, Napster etc. to become household words in just a few years. And now just about everybody of all age groups knows about them. (Maybe not use, but at least are aware of them). So too can this happen for the ".US" extension.

ARE YOU LISTENING NEUSTAR? Is there anyone home?:wave:
.

 

[snoop]

Don’t be fooled by all the usual naysayers that seem to be active in every sub forum and their only duty seems to be controlling the herd of domainers and channeling them towards what serves their own interest. We need to realize that it is part of their strategy to discourage other domainers from pursuing other alternative TLDs, some naysayers are only looking out for their own individual interest while some others are being sponsored by some of the big domain companies in order to control and manipulate the domain Industry in their own favor (we know who you all are ).

The counter argument would be that you are doing the opposite. Trying to pump up this extension to help yourself. The fact is though I don't think either will have any real effect.

Its funny they always claim that they are doing other domainers (especially newbies) a favor by keeping them from making costly mistakes, but if they are so much concerned about other domainers not wasting money why is it that they are never willing to share with them any of the secrets to their own domaining success.

There is no secret. I've focused on domains with with real capital value and bought mainly names with revenue. I've also written off alt and unpopular extensions completely. Align yourself with making money today and forget about grand plans of things changing in the future, that is my opinion.

Time is running out, we need to come up with some good ideas fast to make .US better known to the small businesses and the American people in general.

So you describe this as an extension where "time is running out" yet on the other hand you complain about naysayers as though what is being said is false. You can't have it both ways.

 

[DotUSDomains]

Snoop,

this is page 7 were on,

why you still reading page 1 ?



I thought you were smartish, but maybee not,

You cant compare giving out a .us to every new business (which makes sense) to your ideas,


-give out a .us domain to every newborn baby
-give out a .us domain when people walk into a cinema
-give out a .us domain when someone buys a ream of paper form the local store
-give out a .us domain with every shake at Mc Donalds
-give out a .us domain when people graduate from college

You really need to have a word with yourself.

youre lucky you got in domaining early as there would be no hope for you if you started today. (thats another FACT for you

 

[bmugford]

Legitimate question:

Anheuser-Busch.

A large company. Not American anymore but big seller of AMERICAN BEER.
Would be a huge fan of .us if they only knew about it?

Come Monday:

They're dropping Amberbock, Odouls, michelobclassicdark.us, budicelightbeer.us, budicebeer.us...

I think that says a lot, don't you?

Doesn't mean much IMO. Big companies frequently drop non core domains for various reasons.

One example -

Dell dropped a handful of good generics recently. I picked up one of their .INFO drops for $10 and sold it for $3500 a couple weeks later.

Why did they drop them? Who knows. It happens all the time in every extension.

I have said in the past I am comfortable with where .US is right now. There are buyers for premium keywords today.

Will .US explode overnight? No.
Will .US grow slowly but steadily? Probably.

Brad

 

[DU]

Post one idea. Post anything constructive at all. I dare you. :p

Here's my idea.

Buy quality .US
AND
(
Develop the .US and monetize
OR
Find an end user and sell .US for a profit
)

Quit worrying about a few individuals can influence a market that you say is potentially 300 million strong. It's not going to happen.

Worry about influencing the few end users you target.

My statement with regard to the beer drops was to counter the argument that the problem is "lack of recognition". Dropping marketed brand names - is not that. I'm not saying that you should drop everything, I'm saying you (royal you) should come up with a different reason for why the .US is what it is.

Also. I don't buy the "we're in the .US fan club" schtick. I own .US. They have horrible natural traffic (zero for a single word EXACT term searched over 120,000 times a month for example).

You CAN own a .US and not be a fan. Thinking that individual investers can change an entire geographic market is like pissing in the wind.

It's like owning a bunch of parking lots in the desert and suggesting that the government should be doing more to encourage people to drive out to look at the sand.

I actually think that segments of .us has a lot of upside right now (and a lot of downside). But that's the economy (yes, Snoop that doesn't help) right now for you.

It's why I have jobseeker.us

 

[theSun]

Why don't you email him instead?
Why didn't you purchase a ticket to the show?

 

[DN BROKER]

Hey, if Ken Hansen says .us is making progress, there certainly isn't any reason to doubt him.:lol:

.US? its got a long way to go

 

[HeyNow]

Domain Name Journal - The Lowdown

(L to R in the photo above) Ron Jackson (DN Journal), Ken Hansen (Neustar, operator of the
.US registry) and Steve Smith (registrar Webnames) discuss the prospects for .US and .CA.



Please provide an overview of this and discuss in the greatest detail possible.

Signed

Jaco

You sound so arrogant, like you are Ron's boss demanding follow-up work, as though you are owed something. I'm no Ron Jackson fan, but I must say you should probably get off your ass and discover there really is no great plan from Neustar, that another year from now we'll be asking the same questions, wondering why no one knows what .us is.

 

[Jaco]

You sound so arrogant, like you are Ron's boss demanding follow-up work, as though you are owed something.

The funny thing about perception is, you can perceive something and be totally, totally, 100% wrong.

This would be the case here. I'm guessing you didn't do so well in the 'reading comprehension' classes in grammar school?

 

[Jaco]

Something phrased in the context of a light-hearted, jestful 'petition' can hardly be considered demanding, unless one comprehends words on par with a 4 year old. Captain Jagoff up there apparently felt the need to lash out at something, but picked the wrong candidate.

 

[snoop]

Hey, if Ken Hansen says .us is making progress, there certainly isn't any reason to doubt him.:lol:

:lol:

To have a discussion like that it needs to panel of people with different viewpoints, not just people who are pro .us.

Regarding .ca seems to be doing fairly well, it is a country code that makes sense.

Regarding .us it is an extension that is making no real progress and has no real market. It isn't like other country codes.

When people need to roll out lists of companies who use it that is a very bad sign (like the tiring lists of .mobi, .info, .biz sites that we see on the forum), the extension spotting is another bad sign (hold the presses- I saw a .us site advertised!).

Who cares about Maserati.us, Shell.us, Transamerica.us, Hitachi.us, BASF.us and Carrabas.us? These aren't popular sites.

 

[Jaco]

You don't know much about development; do you...

Either way, that's what you call a 'circular argument'.
You cite that US isn't making any progress and has no real market, but then when one cites major companies using .US, they're dismissed with a 'who cares'?

LOL. OK.

No one is saying .us is going to supplant .com in the minds of US consumers, ever. What some people 'get' is that some mid to mid/large sized businesses don't mind .us all that much, and as far as development goes, if your objective is to target US consumers in the engines... well... nevermind.

 

[Carlton]

Nice spot Carlton, even if not everyone here appreciates it.

Thanks. It's a great extension that is growing considerably. Noticed AirFrance.US as well. Nice targeting. And Aldi.US too.

 

[bmugford]

Snoop, you just seem to be anti-everything.

Will .US take down .COM? Of course not. I have not seen anyone make that ridiculous argument, unlike other threads (.TV and .CO)

.US is a value play at this point.

At the end of the day .US is the ccTLD of the richest most powerful country on Earth, it is not a 5th string gTLD.

Brad

:lol:

To have a discussion like that it needs to panel of people with different viewpoints, not just people who are pro .us.

Regarding .ca seems to be doing fairly well, it is a country code that makes sense.

Regarding .us it is an extension that is making no real progress and has no real market. It isn't like other country codes.

When people need to roll out lists of companies who use it that is a very bad sign (like the tiring lists of .mobi, .info, .biz sites that we see on the forum), the extension spotting is another bad sign (hold the presses- I saw a .us site advertised!).

Who cares about Maserati.us, Shell.us, Transamerica.us, Hitachi.us, BASF.us and Carrabas.us? These aren't popular sites.

 

[Jaco]

And unfortunately Neustar doesn't appear to care a wit about promoting .US. Too small a part of their overall business I guess. Speaking of being myopic, Neustar ... HELLLLLLOOOOOO .... letting a potential cash cow like .US extension starve due to lack of promotion like this is business-insanity. Your marketing guys should be getting negative bonuses. The .US extension should have around 5-10x as many active regs as it does now. Potential for .US registrations and renewals is staggering considering:

US: 300 million population and only 1.6M .US regs
UK: 60 million population and 8M regs
DE: 80 million population and 13M regs

There is some hope. Registrations are growing slowly but steadily. Adoption is slow but I have seen more .US sites now than before and notice more whois records showing non-domainer registrants.

Every new TLD that comes out no matter how well accepted (by stubborn self-interested domainers) and adopted (by actual companies) chips away at the ".com-only internet" castle. Dot com is its own kind of big beautiful walled garden, but there is plenty of life growing outside the walls and the pie is sure to grow making room for all.
.

Did you get my email on B*****T****.us?
I've been having some 'spam filter' issues with inbounds