Let’s stop scammers once for good: Welcome MoneyBookers, Goodbye PayPal!

[italiandragon]

Dear friends,

During the years we have seen on multiple occasions how PayPal transactions have been manipulated at the expense of many honest domainers.

PayPal refused (and still does) to solve the problem and most of the times we rely on luck or the other person’s past feedback.

This has created a constant downturn in the amount of transactions and an increased risk that in our business should no longer be tolerated.
On the other hand, scammers have been prospering and laughing at us, scamming many of us, sometimes even expert people. All of this, is mining our reputation (non-domainers may confuse the honest domainers with scammers) and I don’t like to deal in an unclear business environment.

We can use the services of MoneyBookers and be risk-free on both sides.

“NO charge back risk for merchants”

moneybookers.com

So what are you waiting for? You should NOW (not tomorrow) go to Moneybookers.com - Send Money - Receive Money - Online Payments - Money Transfers and open an account and fund it as soon as possible.
MoneyBookers offers also an extremely cheap escrow service and has an affiliate program if you want to go that way to promote it. (I’m not employed by them and am not advertising any affiliate code here).

Starting today, I NO longer deal with PayPal, nor will I be willing to waive this decision for anyone.
I firmly believe that we can change this bad habit in a few days (that’s how long it takes to fund a newly open MoneyBookers account).

Like for the “restaurant rule”, if we get going, all domainers will join this no-brainer change.

For the past couple of years, I got all the excuses of this world:

- I can’t open one (why? No answer…)
- I’m a friend of…
- I have a good transaction history…
- I don’t have the time to open one…

Enough is enough.

I don’t care if its laziness or any other excuse, if you want to do business with me, whether you are a newbie or the most famous domainers in the world, please OPEN a MB account NOW.

Please, copy and distribute this message to as many domainers you can as fast as you can.

I would also take the chance to ask to the NP staff if they could support this, by making this thread sticky for a while and/or move it to the most appropriate section.

Thank you

 

[werty]

On my case, it was a mistake the company (buyer) made in not recognizing the expense at the end of the month. But they corrected this, and the credit card company reversed the chargeback. Paypal is holding my money now... I have to wait for 75-90 days now for funds to be credited back to me!

 

[italiandragon]

Lorenzo,

I can certainly understand, and respect, your aversion of PP due to your customer service, having money frozen and the legitimate "charge back" fear...... however, for me personally, the one (and hopefully ONLY) time I have been scammed has been via moneybookers.

You state "We can use the services of MoneyBookers and be risk-free on both sides.

NO charge back risk for merchants"

...but what about the instances where the so-called "merchant" is the scammer? For example, in my instance, the scammer hacked an account and sold a domain to me with payment to be only via moneybookers. I received the domain and paid, only to have the domain removed from my account the next day. Moneybookers absolutely refused to refund my money, despite "looking into it", since I knowingly sent the payment (ie my MB account was not hacked). Another time, having paid for services with paypal and gotten the run-around for a very long time, I filed a complaint and Paypal, after requesting facts from both sides, refunded my money.

Don't take this as a Paypal is the "best" rant.... however, I think that to be completely fair in your "recommendation" of MB over PP you have to acknowledge the fact that the "risk factor" is simply reversed, providing little, if any, protection for the buyer if things go awry.

I haven't checked out or used MB's escrow service but can say that I am very happy with moniker's escrow service and rates.

When selling, I always offer both as an option, and am careful about who I allow PP from, and when buying I am careful about who I pay using MB....

SP

hang on, you were buying stolen domains, that is another problem.

with domain tools, anyone can check previous owner and see if the story is good or bad.

 

[kanoodledood]

Anyway, for large transactions, Paypal is not recommended. OP is an established domainer, therefore he should know better.

 

[italiandragon]

Anyway, for large transactions, Paypal is not recommended. OP is an established domainer, therefore he should know.

Yes, we know that but no one is really happy to pay escrow fees all the time.

 

[DN BROKER]

only way to stop this is if we all pool money together and develop an (Escrow service for Domainers by Domainers!)TM

 

[kanoodledood]

moneybookers.com

3.8 You acknowledge and agree that disputes between you and your Customers shall be resolved between you and the Customer directly and that Moneybookers shall not be obliged to become a party to any such dispute.

5. Refunds

5.1 You are required to maintain a fair policy with regard to the return or cancellation of goods or services and adjustment of Transactions and must send us a copy of the policy if we request it.

8. Chargebacks

8.1 You may receive a Chargeback from a Customer or a Card Association for a number of reasons under the Card Association Rules. The following are some of the most common reasons for Chargebacks, but in no way is this intended to be an exhaustive list of possible Chargeback reasons:

* 8.1.1 Your failure to issue a refund to a Customer upon the return or non-delivery of goods or services;
* 8.1.2 A required authorization/approval code was not obtained;
* 8.1.3 The Transaction Data was prepared incorrectly or fraudulently;
* 8.1.4 We did not receive your response to a Retrieval Request within 7 business days or any shorter time period required by the Card Association Rules;
* 8.1.5 The Customer disputes the Transaction or the authenticity of the signature on the Transaction Data or Payment Instrument, or claims that the Transaction is subject to a set-off, defense, or counterclaim;
* 8.1.6 The Customer refuses to make payment for a Transaction because, in the Customer's good faith opinion, a claim or complaint has not been resolved, or has been resolved in an unsatisfactory manner.

8.4 You also agree to pay any and all Card Association fees and fines assessed against you, us, the Sponsored Agent or the Member relating to your violation of this Agreement, or the Card Association Rules with respect to your acceptance of Payment Instruments, your Transactions or with respect to excessive Chargebacks under this section.

8.5 You have full liability if any Settled Transaction for which we have given your Settlement Account provisional credit is the subject of a Chargeback. Subsequently, you may resubmit applicable Transaction Data for a second presentment, but only in accordance with Card Association Rules. To the extent that we have paid or may be called upon to pay a Chargeback, refund or adjustment for or on the account of a Customer and you do not reimburse us as provided for in this Agreement, then for the purpose of our obtaining reimbursement of such sums paid or anticipated to be paid, we have all of the rights and remedies of such Customer under applicable federal, state, or local laws and you authorize us to assert any and all such claims in our own name for and on behalf of any such Customer individually or all such Customers as a class.

 

[opalxx]

That would be ironic, since it was a similar law that apparently forces PayPal to ask ten million things to all Australians once they transfer more than $1,000

Australians always get the third degree!!! Our reputation lives on. Seriously though, we personally have never transferred out more than a thousand $AU but my partner has a registered business in Australia where she makes and exports Neem products to a Health Store in Hong Kong. She does receive over this amount and the paypal transaction fee that she has to pay is quite high.

I normally only have small transactions through paypal like for registering a name etc. The thing that i was going to contact paypal about is that i have noticed their conversion rate from $AU to $US always seems to be a few cents lower than the world conversion rate. For example, if our finance reports state that the Australian dollar buys 90 US cents and i do a paypal transaction buying a US product i would only get 87 US cents through Paypal, not the 90 US cents. I wonder if any other Australians have noticed this abnormality when buying from the US?

We have never checked the Paypal conversion rate from Hong Kong dollars to Australian dollars when we get paid. Will do that on the next transaction from Honkers to see whats cooking.

 

[kanoodledood]

We have never checked the Paypal conversion rate from Hong Kong dollars to Australian dollars when we get paid. Will do that on the next transaction from Honkers to see whats cooking.

https://cms.paypal.com/sg/cgi-bin/m...&content_ID=ua/FeesPolicy_full&locale.x=en_US

 

[nucleotide]

sadly, they don't appreciate that *everyone* has a PP horror story to tell.

 

[SlimPickins]

there is nothing to "hang on" about......

I was not knowingly buying stolen domains. The account was compromised and the domains were pushed directly from the "actual" account... there was nothing for me to verify that the story was bad.

So, my point remains that moneybookers is certainly more pro-merchant/seller but, in instances where the scammer is actually on the selling end, the recourse left to the buyer is no better than it is with paypal for the seller in cases of chargebacks.

If you choose to not acknowledge this, fine.... but don't preach that moneybookers is somehow the save-all, "risk-free on both sides" option for domain transactions.

I would rather use both options when appropriate. In instances where I do not feel comfortable receiving payment via paypal, insisting on an escrow service or moneybookers. But, as a BUYER, I am VERY leary of using moneybookers, even if everything checks out, unless I can confirm beyond all doubt that there is no foul play.... and, if I am that uncertain, I would once again prefer to use escrow instead.

To each there own, but to say moneybookers is risk-free is dangerously misleading.

hang on, you were buying stolen domains, that is another problem.

with domain tools, anyone can check previous owner and see if the story is good or bad.

 

[bluesinjid]

I have a MB account, but TBH, I think it really hasn't caught on. Many websites by default use paypal for online payments, but hopefully one day, they can be a real contender in universal online transactions.

 

[nucleotide]

I a starting to see why some clients on other forums ask so much personal detail. I think they are Paypal deficient and want to avoid using them.

 

[Domainate.com]

there is nothing to "hang on" about......

I was not knowingly buying stolen domains. The account was compromised and the domains were pushed directly from the "actual" account... there was nothing for me to verify that the story was bad.

So, my point remains that moneybookers is certainly more pro-merchant/seller but, in instances where the scammer is actually on the selling end, the recourse left to the buyer is no better than it is with paypal for the seller in cases of chargebacks.

If you choose to not acknowledge this, fine.... but don't preach that moneybookers is somehow the save-all, "risk-free on both sides" option for domain transactions.

I would rather use both options when appropriate. In instances where I do not feel comfortable receiving payment via paypal, insisting on an escrow service or moneybookers. But, as a BUYER, I am VERY leary of using moneybookers, even if everything checks out, unless I can confirm beyond all doubt that there is no foul play.... and, if I am that uncertain, I would once again prefer to use escrow instead.

To each there own, but to say moneybookers is risk-free is dangerously misleading.

Precisely. NONE of these places are risk-free. For anyone thinking they are, have a look at the ePassporte Virtual Visa issue going on lately. Some people literally have over $200,000 LOCKED IN THEIR ACCOUNT.

That's not to say offering PP AND Moneybookers isn't a bad idea, but don't expect buyers to WANT to pay by a payment method where THEY have virtually no protection vs. the seller having virtually no protection. Buyers don't want to take risks any more than sellers do.

 

[End User King]

I'm with ItalianDragon. I've recently had over $8k tied into Paypal and it took over a month to access my funds. I'm through with them for the most part. I'll buy some XX-XXX domains with the funds I still have there however.

 

[italiandragon]

Precisely. NONE of these places are risk-free. For anyone thinking they are, have a look at the ePassporte Virtual Visa issue going on lately. Some people literally have over $200,000 LOCKED IN THEIR ACCOUNT.

That's not to say offering PP AND Moneybookers isn't a bad idea, but don't expect buyers to WANT to pay by a payment method where THEY have virtually no protection vs. the seller having virtually no protection. Buyers don't want to take risks any more than sellers do.

I'll have to do some research then. Eventually yes, offering both would be possibly a start then.

Maybe anyone in the UK can give them a ring and ask some questions?

---------- Post added at 04:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:50 PM ----------

Nonetheless, Moniker Escrow does NOT accept anymore credit card payments....

I was told that is due to chargebacks risk.

 

[iextreme]

Well MB shouldn't be credited as a "perfect payment processor" over paypal since each of them around has it's own flaws, There were some transactions in the past reported where payments via stolen credit cards on MB were being returned when claimed by their owners so indirectly scammers make use of such cards and once they get the domain names we get a notification from MB that the payment was sent from a stolen cc and hence it's been charged back. Very secure payment processor isn't it??

 

[tech4]

The name MoneyBooker sounds very foreign, exotic, and not something to be trusted.

The reason is its affiliated with online gambling for cayan islands companies. Other reasons having to do with its operations who it does businesses with, and the name itself is something.

If I were the management, and wanted to capture the US market. Branding is very important, the name itself should be changed.

 

[GreenGambler]

I have both an MB and PP account. I used to always accept both with my sales and have only been paid with MB twice I think. I stopeed useing them for some reason though, I think it was something to do with me being in the US but I can't remember.. I'll have to log on and check it out again..

 

[promo]

Well... That could be reversed.. Paypal.. Sounds childish and unserious.

Like something my 2 year old nephew would try to use when paying for his Saturday candy. I mean its not Barny the dinosaur that is their target audience is it?

Point is that the name is not paramount at all..

The name MoneyBooker sounds very foreign, exotic, and not something to be trusted.

The reason is its affiliated with online gambling for cayan islands companies. Other reasons having to do with its operations who it does businesses with, and the name itself is something.

If I were the management, and wanted to capture the US market. Branding is very important, the name itself should be changed.

 

[italiandragon]

The name MoneyBooker sounds very foreign, exotic, and not something to be trusted.

The reason is its affiliated with online gambling for cayan islands companies. Other reasons having to do with its operations who it does businesses with, and the name itself is something.

If I were the management, and wanted to capture the US market. Branding is very important, the name itself should be changed.

What name would be suitable for that?

Something like...."Lehman Brothers" ? :hehe:

 

[tech4]

As for a better business name, they will have to come up with one themselves. I don't trust them, I believe they are some Limited Liability Corporation from the Cayman Island, whereas if something happens. You are out of luck. At least Paypal headquarter is somewhere in the USA.

 

[italiandragon]

As for a better business name, they will have to come up with one themselves. I don't trust them, I believe they are some Limited Liability Corporation from the Cayman Island, whereas if something happens. You are out of luck. At least Paypal headquarter is somewhere in the USA.

Just because it's in the USA does not mean it's safe....

ENRON...:gl:

 

[sourcez]

I have to admit I've always thought moneybookers sounded like a gambling site...

I have both & personally find the PayPal site easier to use - little things like the captcha on moneybookers to login seem unnecessary?

I will personally not drop PayPal as it holds the majority of the market (moneybookers here in the uk seems to have declined; I see fewer sites with it now than a couple of years ago) and I don't fancy having to use multiple payment providers when I can stick with PayPal and hammer down my receiving rates.

That said, high value transactions are better done through escrow; or face to face.

I've had chargebacks in the past but have always come out with the money, although I accept this varies from person to person. Our business account has had a few chargebacks too and the success rate there on keeping the money does vary; but we feel it's one of the problems associated with distance selling.

When given the choice my customers have never opted for moneybookers so I'm unable to comment on their dispute resolution. Googling them and PayPal shows scare stories for both but Moneybookers has additional posts labelling them a scam etc simply because they aren't used by many people. The problem for them is getting out of that 'rut'.

 

[fm1234]

I generally use what people want to pay me in, as long as it's a verifiable company. That said, my experience with Moneybookers dates back to before it even existed, not in a Dr. Who kind of way but back a decade ago when it was still an internal payment system for the sportsbook Gamebookers. I've been using it for non-gambling payments on and off since the day the site went live, and never really understood why it hasn't gotten traction against PP. It has a much more fluid interface, better customer support, and more going for it.


Frank

 

[italiandragon]

moneybookers.com

I have to admit that I never took the time to read all that.

Considering the facts, I'd ask:

is there anyway to reverse / chargeback a PayPal payment done by Mass Pay?