IDN facts - By Olney

[Olney]

I'd like to clear up some things about IDN Domains which some are talking about the commercial success of IDN Domains instead of informing the NP community about exactly why IDN Domains are needed.

IDN Domains are greatly needed for countries that's language is not based on the latin language. Technology issues is what held IDN Domains back but IE which was the biggest factor in the countries not adapting IDN Domains is going to resolve the issues with the release of IE7

I'll try to answer some IDN related questions here as posted but I will try to post info on common misconceptions as I see. I'm an American SEO consultant, & web site developer fluent reading & writing in Japanese. (My reading is better than my writing but you get the point).

I'll talk about IDN Domains for the average Japanese person. I have been doing research on the internet use of Japanese since September of last year.

Except for the US most other countries was late getting on the internet. Most simple dot coms are already registered. Japan made the dot jp extension to accomodate for this but truthfully if you are Japanese there's a problem that others can't see that arises.

It might sound really hard to believe but this is said with research from native Japanese. Japanese people living in Japan can not remember ASCII domain names. This is a fact. IDN Domains allows them to type the domain in native Japanese.

Also there is the search engine (SEO) value. Any ASCII domain has about as much potential to rank for Japanese keywords because the actual native keyword is not in the domain. With IDN Domains the actual keyword (native) is there.

On Japanese blogs Japanese SEOs are noticing that the search engine algorithms are changing to boost Japanese IDNs in the rankings. Google Japan & Yahoo Japan also made IDN Domains show up properly in search results.

Japanese don't do type ins currently because the URLs are in ASCII form. They know they can't spell a lot of them correctly. A Japanese word spelled in English can be spelled multiple ways. Even the word Tokyo is actually Toukyou in Japanese if I spelled it the way I world write it. For a Japanese to go to a web site. This is the process.

They go to their bookmark of Google Japan or Yahoo! Japan. & type in the web site's name in Japanese. This exact pattern I have seen over & over every single day watching that no matter what URL I give them or site they want to go to, Japanese do it this way only because they can not remember how to spell every URL.

The advertisements in Tokyo for IDN Domains is usually stating "Finally easy to remember Domain names".
For a company this is a big issue. For users this is a big issue.

There's more & I know many will ask questions like:
But they have to switch over the encode on they keyboard.
Japanese can switch over the encode with one single button, & truthfully I switch the encode but found out they actually don't even have to. They can type in the extension the same as switching to the right Chinese characters.

I keep hearing about an IDN keyboard. Japanese use a normal keyboard just like in English. Mentally they use the English letters to type in their language but Japanese NEVER EVER PHYSICALLY SEE their own language in Roman letters.

I promote IDNs to anyone who is interested in learning about them. Many domainers have roots in other countries or see that IDN Domains is a parallel of domaining in English in multiple languages.

Will this be an instant winfall?
By no means no. I fully expected when I started registering domains that it should be at least 1 or 2 years after IE7 is released before IDN Domains are in full use. The site I created about IDN Domains gave people a chance to look over the reality of them & see if they would like to be a part of it at it's infancy. I posted on my site that NP since it has a wide range of young people has the most potential for users to "get" the concept of IDN Domains.
Sedo, NameDrive, Microsoft, Apple, Google, Yahoo & other companies see the value in them too (as far as user value).

Most info about the progress of IDN Domains will not be presented in English because most will just assume that domains in Romain letters is the standard & everyone is used to it. They might be "used" to it but can't fully function with them like a person from a country that uses Romain letters. This is a fact. Asians that are Asian American, & Asians not able to function in English are two seperate entities.


Any questions or comments just post them I'll try to answer some as I have time. I only am limited in my knowledge about the Chinese firewall thing...

 

[Olney]

I understand your questions & I for one tell people that it will take 1 to 2 years AFTER IE7 to launch for them to become mainstream. I personally know this & can wait. There also isn't a domaining market established in Japan yet.

Opera & Firefox doesn't have the buzz to make internet users switch.

Yes they were late with lots of things.
If someone explained a Social Network to large corporations 2 years ago they would have thought it would be too complicated for users.
This site Mixi.jp is currently #41 on Alexa & just turned 2 years old.

The holding back of the internet development in Japan as a whole has nothing to do with Microsoft just the IDN part.

5 to 6 years ago in Japan most people were still paying per minute phone bills for internet use. NTT (the phone company) wouldn't offer low monthly rates because they had web browsing on their cell phones. Keep the net more expensive & iMode became more popular (limited enclosed web envirement & email).

This kept most people off of the web. This kept most people from learning how to design for the web.

Japan is currently playing catchup (net services, community sites) but more & more homes now have net broadband net connections. Just like Mixi it won't matter so much about what the big corporations do after IE7 is launched.

Microsoft Japan does care about IDNs because all the press releases for IE7 in Japanese state that Japanese Domains (IDNs) will be able to be used with the new browser.

Japan has a world known tendency to catch on to something extremely fast. The commercials that will appear on TV for IE7 in Japan (I believe) will tell the benefits of the browser from the Japan standpoint.

The browser is supposed to be released this year in a few months. It's your personal choice to not explore the market. I just think it would be in your favor to not believe people will upgrade. One of my members noticed that Yahoo! US did some promotions of the new IE7 beta. Yahoo! Japan has the best penetration in Japan because it's used more.

Personally you already have an established Domain business. IDNs may not be for you. It is a guaranteed 1 to 2 year wait before they go mainstream (as far as widespread use). You can only think of this like the domain market in like 1992, but with all the facts of today. It's like stocks or real estate (as you already know). You're already established in the NYSE those who see the potential will go over to developing foreign markets.

You may also check out www.eachnic.com
http://www.eachnic.com/club/
This is the biggest Chinese Domain Forum... They are the 2nd biggest Domain forum in the world. With 31,000 Domainers you might be interested in the Chinese market as something to look at.

Anyway you are entitled to researching. I realize I grew with the Japanese internet market as my focus. So I do take non obvious differences for granted.

 

[gou]

I'm in Japan right now visiting my old friends. It seems like Mixi is becoming a pretty big deal.
However, unlike the American MySpace users, Japanese students have absolutely no time to waste. I can't even call my friends on weekdays.

 

[briman1970]

I had limited time to surf the web in college as well....... whats your point?

People will still go on the net and book hotel rooms etc

You reworded his statement and then proceeded to say that his point was absurd, but you missed his point entirely. Now you are doing the exact same thing to me.


What he said...

...unlike the American MySpace users, Japanese students have absolutely no time to waste.

What you heard...

The Japanese don't have time for the internet. They are not involved in the same things as Americans.

What I said...

...He made a statement which you quickly ingested and then partially regurgitated. Plus, he is in Japan... Where are you? :yell:

What you heard...

The Japanese don't have time for the internet. They are not involved in the same things as Americans.

I have a friend who has a similar conversation style. If I didn't love the guy, I'd probably end up punching him in the face! We argue constantly! Disclaimer: The previous statement is EXACTLY what I meant... I don't mean I want to punch you in the face (or anything else you may think I meant)!

 

[RJ]

Olney, I just had a chance to read and digest your full post. Thanks for sharing some good information about IDN's and specifics dealing with the Japanese market in particular.

You mentioned IE7 which I have heard a lot about. But I'm curious, why is the browser issue holding back the IDN market in Japan? With Firefox, Opera and others already supporting IDN's for years now shouldn't there be a mass migration to these other browser platforms going on now?

Thanks again,
RJ

 

[Olney]

Thank You RJ for taking the time to read it.
The internet market in Japan IS NOT developed to the point it should be. Most people in IT/Internet related markets know about Firefox etc. The average person in Japan DOES NOT. It's like Paypal they say they have Japanese compatibility but realisticly no one even in IT in Japan uses it or knows about it because it's not in Japanese.

There are many Mac users that can use IDN Domains but business' control the market initially. These are all Windows based Corporations, most being "old money". Even some of the really large Ad Agencies are not 100% up to speed on all internet technology & strategies themselves but they already have most "dang near all" large corporations as clients.

In this situation they are looking at statistics from their point of view. They use Windows, can IDNs be used by them? No... Wait until IDNs are usuable...

Most large corporations did keep their portfolios of IDN Domains.

Coca Cola owns the IDNs for Cola.jp, DietCola.jp, JCB (Credit cards) They own many of the jp Credit card related domains, Daiwa Securities owns most of the best Financial/Stock related domains. Microsoft Japan just bought all their product names at the end of March 2006.

These companies are keeping them to use later (&/or keep their competitors from having them). Even though the info isn't widely publicized yet, the larger corporations are realizing what is going to happen. The browser support was the big issue. As people upgrade IDNs become the normal domains for Japan & other countries. The funny thing is MSN search is not IDN compatible yet (Yahoo! Japan, Google, & even Goo is and released Japan press releases on it) but they know what's going to happen better than anyone else. They own the most IDN Domains (that I've been able to find of the search engines in Japan).

This is not going to be something for everyone though. Business is business.. I just read an article stating every Golden Time ends.. Domains becoming global or in one's own language is just natural progression. I'm just trying to present this market to some before it gets fully developed...

 

[RJ]

Very interesting. From what you say it sounds like the Japanese internet development is slow to adapt to new things. If people in Japan are behind the curve and IDN's are not vitally important, or at least not important enough to change their browser, it could take many years before there is even a migration from IE6 to IE7.

It seems like the whole speculation behind Japanese IDN's is that when IE7 comes out, IDN usage will finally become mainstream in Japan. That's seems to be putting a lot of faith in Microsoft to make this a reality, and Microsoft does not appear to be a big supporter of IDN's.

IDN's are a reality today. They resolve and can be used already. I guess my question was is if IDN support is important to the Japanese people, how come the mainstream isn't so quick to find and embrace a browser that already supports IDNs? Firefox does have a Japanese site (http://www.mozilla-japan.org/), and Opera launched their Japanese browser three years ago. It just seems odd to me that the whole Japanese IDN scene seems to be on hold while MS gets their act together.

RJ (still looking for a good IDN market to invest)

 

[bocanames]

Guys - positive, informative discussion IMO. Olney thanks for the insght. I've dabbled a little bit with some Japanese IDNs, but only because I have some support from native speakers.

Which version of a phrase really represents the best choice for a name? This common domainer question has a new wrinkle when you're talking about a culture using 3 different written languages, sometimes in combination! I mention this because we've found generic, great sounding names available only to realize that no Japanese people write it that way.

But I, for one, will continue to "dabble" despite the pitfalls or the small likelihood of a good short-term ROI, because I share your vision for the longer term. But I am encouraged to see some sales this year - seems like it's quietly turning into a viable market.

 

[Olney]

This is a good & valid question.
We have to think about this in the Japanese perspective.
This goes a little off the subject but is one of those things people ask.

What about the fact of Japanese people's names & having different ways (Kanji or Chinese characters) to spell it correctly.

I've seen this question asked & it really only applies to Japanese first names (not last names). Japanese first names are usually all spelled with different Kanji. Even when Japanese call places & say their name they tell the person on the other end it's Hiroki Hiro as in "Something" Ki as in "Something else". This is 100% normal & natural to Japanese. Now on the other hand this really only does apply to Japanese first names. How many commercial sales have you seen on DNJournal for Kiesha.com? or George.com? If it's a celebrity as soon ass you say the name. Fans know how to type it.

So back to your question. Japanese do have 3 writing systems but will usually type in the most common correct term first. Illiteracy in Japan is extremely low. You even see the old homeless reading (no disrepect intended). Also even though there may be a term that we write in English

Haken.com - This term is a kind of temp agency that sends out employees. It's one of the top Japanese career keywords.

Now there are a few kanjis that would sound the same.

??.com
??.com
even a few that might sound the same to us
??.com (I always pronounce this one by mistake)
??.com
Or in Hiragana or Katakana
???.com
???.com

Now the first one is my domain & if I sell it to a company Like Recruit Japan or any other Job service. If when IDNs are in mainstream, they verbally say "Go to our website, it's the Japanese Domain Haken.com"

If that potential person candidate goes to any other domain you've just saved yourself the trip of interviewing an idiot.

You have to visually imagined this. You have any autoshop. You say on the radio. Visit us at "Brakes.com" & do you think your potential customers are going to go to "Breaks.com"?

It's really the same. Even if us nonJapanese mess up sometimes, Japanese know the most common way to spell everything Japanese.

There are exceptions. You can have terms like Sushi that is commonly written in English letters, Kanji, & Hiragana. There are quite a few words I know that are widely written in 2 or 3 different ways.

If you have a native that can check over you domains that makes things better. Good luck with your regs

 

[yanni]

Which version of a phrase really represents the best choice for a name? This common domainer question has a new wrinkle when you're talking about a culture using 3 different written languages, sometimes in combination! I mention this because we've found generic, great sounding names available only to realize that no Japanese people write it that way.

You can always use Japan Overture
http://inventory.jp.overture.com/d/searchinventory/suggestion/
to see if people are searching for your term, and compare with others to see which would be the better one.

Also, a search @ Google (and pics) should give you a decent idea before you reg.

I have IDN in about 20+ different languges and I only speak two of them.
Of course you'll get the occasional dud, but you get better with time and research.

Here's a good Japanese Dictionary to get people started:
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?1C

good luck!

 

[DNWizardX9]

I'm in Japan right now visiting my old friends. It seems like Mixi is becoming a pretty big deal.
However, unlike the American MySpace users, Japanese students have absolutely no time to waste. I can't even call my friends on weekdays.

What does this have to do with IDNs.

Please stay on topic

 

[gou]

What does this have to do with IDNs.

Please stay on topic

Uhh, Mixi was mentioned a couple of times in the discussion.
I guess the reality of young Japanese internet users is not germane to the subject of IDN.

 

[thegenius1]

Uhh, Mixi was mentioned a couple of times in the discussion.
I guess the reality of young Japanese internet users is not germane to the subject of IDN.

Sorry but you are off topic , and for what its worth mixi has been searched 12 million times last month ( 12,548,573 ), so people find time for the net and frankly that still has nothing to do with this thread , if you like to talk about japanese youth and the internet please start another thread Thanks

 

[briman1970]

Sorry but you are off topic , and for what its worth mixi has been searched 12 million times last month ( 12,548,573 ), so people find time for the net and frankly that still has nothing to do with this thread , if you like to talk about japanese youth and the internet please start another thread Thanks

Mr. Abrasive,

Mixi was mentioned twice in post #5 by Olney, the starter of this thread. I believe you are wrong in your assumption that his post was off topic. You are not here to police our forum. We have mods for that.

 

[gou]

I sincerely apologize to those who found my post to be off topic.

 

[briman1970]

I sincerely apologize to those who found my post to be off topic.

No need.

 

[DNWizardX9]

The Japanese love the net. They are definitely involved in similar things as Americans. To blatantly say the Japanese have no time for the Internet is absurd.

 

[briman1970]

The Japanese love the net. They are definitely involved in similar things as Americans. To blatantly say the Japanese have no time for the Internet is absurd.

Gou actually blatantly stated, "Japanese STUDENTS have absolutely no time to waste. I can't even call my friends on weekdays."

He made a statement which you quickly ingested and then partially regurgitated. Plus, he is in Japan... Where are you? :yell:

 

[DNWizardX9]

Gou actually blatantly stated, "Japanese STUDENTS have absolutely no time to waste. I can't even call my friends on weekdays."

He made a statement which you quickly ingested and then partially regurgitated. Plus, he is in Japan... Where are you? :yell:

I had limited time to surf the web in college as well....... whats your point?


People will still go on the net and book hotel rooms etc

 

[thegenius1]

:great: Rep Added Awesome info in this Thread ! If possible mods i would like to vote for this thread to be a sticky but to delete a few of the post at the end that went off on a tangent

 

[goodkarmaco]

Olney,

You talked a little about business traqdemarks etc. I am wondering if a person registered a domain of a trademarked business in a country such as the U.S in idn.

My question is can the domain owner of the idn have full rights to the idn without worry from getting sued?

Many thanks for the very informative post.

Roderick

 

[mulligan]

Olney,

You talked a little about business traqdemarks etc. I am wondering if a person registered a domain of a trademarked business in a country such as the U.S in idn.

My question is can the domain owner of the idn have full rights to the idn without worry from getting sued?

Many thanks for the very informative post.

Roderick

A trademark is a trademark is a trademark regardless of which country the name/IDN is registered in.

If you went and registered Honda.com (A Japanese company) in english or Japanese they will take it off you..

The fact the name is registered in a country different to the country of the business has no bearing on trademark infringment.

IDN.com/.net are all subject to the same 'rules' as ASCII.com/.net

 

[Olney]

I'm not a legal espert but I do believe trademarks need to trademarked in the country.

Some people worry about IDNs & trademarks but there are many misconceptions.

Most people think with IDNs people will translate their trademark & use it illegally in IDN form.

I'll give an example. I'm sure many companies have a trademark on the term capital. It's a pretty generic term. Now I own capital.jp (IDN) in Japanese. Would any of the US trademark owners have a right to my domain? I believe they wouldn't.

Now if you try to buy a companies branded trademark in IDN form that has a presence in that country. Then I truly believe you are looking for problems.

Some of the issues to think of is this...
Many websites own their trademark saying they own rights to the IDNs essentially would mean someone thinks they should own the translated versions of those names... How far would this extend? Would car.com own car.com in every language?

Like CheapHotels.com
or Anime.com

I the native Japanese for Anime.com do they have a claim to my domain? Nope I'm not riding off their brand for the Japanese market, plus the domain is a pure generic term in Japanese. Two completely different markets.

It might come as a shock but trademarks only apply to the country they are registered in. Translations can mean numerous things.

But you may have to shoot me a good example. For me IDN means a native term in the target language. Those terms don't always have a connection with an English term.

Olney,

You talked a little about business traqdemarks etc. I am wondering if a person registered a domain of a trademarked business in a country such as the U.S in idn.

My question is can the domain owner of the idn have full rights to the idn without worry from getting sued?

Many thanks for the very informative post.

Roderick

 

[mulligan]

If interested here is a link to what WIPO have to say on IDN's and some cases brought before it -- The cases were all awarded in the claimants favor and those that werent are still under 'decision'. They are blatant names like Citizen Watch in Chinese etc.

It makes for interesting reading if you can be bothered to go through it all and will give you a much better idea than what I can give you...

http://arbiter.wipo.int/domains/internationalized/index.html

 

[goodkarmaco]

Olney,,

This is a great post and your knowledge of the idns is appreciated. I know pretty much nothing about them. Mulligans link is something I will need to read at a later date as it looks like it will take a while to absorb.

I kind of see what is said about the trademarked owner not having a corner on the market for names in a different language unless of course the name is registered in that country.

So I suppose the name I own and offer for sale, that is money.com in idn is o.k. to own as pretty sure you cannot trademark a noun such as that?

But for example if I owned timesharecondos.com and it is a name I registered in the U.S. and it does have a trademark for the U.S. So then is it O.K. for another person to register it (timesharecondos) in idn in another country as long as the trademark is not registered in that country?.

By the way are you American?. You have excellant english and good command of the language.

Roderick