NameSilo

Hijacked Domain cwr.com

Located in Warnings and Alerts started by Daehler Ralph, Jan 3, 2019.

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  1. Crypto King

    Crypto King RFQ.com . Peculium.com . AngelLead.com . BVMI.com VIP

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    Sorry if I missed it but does anybody know how AGB is hijacking domains? I was going to buy a domain recently. I offered $100 for it, the guy said $500, again I said $100 he said $300 or go away so I went away. The next day he came back and said he accepts $100 for a quick deal. He asked me to create a Netsol account for push and I said I wanted an auth code. He said he can't as the domain is under a 60 day-lock and that if I don't want a push then no deal.

    I told him that I would rather not have the domain if my only option is NetSol. That is how low I rate their service and their security. I would not even create an account there in case my information is stolen. Not saying it will be but I have been put-off due to numerous incidents.

    Just my opinion after reading many incidents like the one in this thread.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2019
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  2. Daehler Ralph

    Daehler Ralph Upgraded Member Blue Account

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    I think he is getting hacked account informations from somewhere (Darknet). I have read a lot in the internet about thousands of hacked Network Solutions accounts years ago and a lot of awful stories. And I think there are still a lot more domains listed for sale on platforms like Sedo, which have a criminal background.
    Sedo doesn't care about that. They are saved by their purchase contract conditions. You can see in my contract attached. If all the buyers on this platforms would know what risk they go, when they are buying high priced domain names.
    I will now check the Whois History very well and contact the owner first when I am going to buy a high price name.
     

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    Last edited: Jan 30, 2019
  3. poweredbyme

    poweredbyme Established Member

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    Sedo verification is automated. You add some long codes to DNS and sedo bots verify if the code exists.
    DNS based verifications can take long for 2 reasons:
    1- Your nameservers are unreachable to sedo's servers.
    2- You added the domain before adding the verification code to DNS. Once you added a new domain, sedo bot will immediately check if the code is where it must exist. If the bot can't find the code, your namesever will give negative DNS response to sedo bot. Negative DNS responses are cached as long as minimum/default TTL value of your DNS zone. You have to wait until the cache is expired. In DNS system, client must obey TTL values of the authoritative nameservers.
     
  4. poweredbyme

    poweredbyme Established Member

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    to add a domain to sedo you must control its dns. To receive money, you must login to its registrar account and must send the domain to the buyer/escrow. What else can be done to verify domain ownership? If you control registrar account and DNS of a domain, you are the owner and can sell that domain anywhere and can get paid. It could happen on any marketplace or escrow service similar to Sedo. Sedo isn't different and isn't really responsible for this type of possible events.

    I think the most secure way is to buy from registrar's marketplaces. I bought most of my domains from registrars and had never faced with an issue. Interesting part is, marketplaces of registrars have much less ownership verification steps. If you can login to registrar account you can sell any domain. But it's more secure. Because the real owner logins to his registrar account, not to the third party marketplaces/escrow services. The real domain owner can cancel everything while the money and domain are still on the hands of registrar. Also the registrar may show the domain for sale as soon as he logs in. You can easily hold the registrar responsible if they move your domain from your account. But a third party marketplace/sedo is a third party. Sedo/escrow doesn't move domain from your registrar account. How can you held them responsible for the things that they don't do?
     
  5. barybadrinath

    barybadrinath Upgraded Member Gold Account

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    I can held sedo responsible because buyer of cwr did not buy domain directly from buyer.
    It happened through sedo.com
    Marketplace is responsible because it's falicitating the sale.
    All your technical points might be correct but a non technical buyer doesn't understand this.
    The platform for the sale is provided by sedo and the technical things, server , DNS etc are of no concern to common buyer.
    If you have bought a stolen car from any seller via trading platform , it's the responsibility of the platform to verify it before facilitating the sale.
    Why did they accept the commission by the sale of a stolen domain name.
    Third party and other similar words are good for legal arguments but any third party facilitating the sale and earning commission from that sale is also responsible...
    If sedo have not provided the platform , this stolen domain name sale would have not occurred.
    Did sedo refund the commission earned by cwr.com sale ?
     
  6. carob

    carob Top Member VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    It's pretty clear Sedo don't care a lot about security - Sedo STILL do not have 2FA, even though that has been raised on here before. And the CMS they use for the site, Typo3, already has extensions for 2FA that they could just switch on - Google Authenticator for example: https://extensions.typo3.org/extension/cf_google_authenticator/

    So at Sedo, like at Afternic, if someone gets into a Sedo account they can change the sale price of a domain that has MLS (or on Afternic, FastTransfer) enabled, buy it at that new superlow price, and the domain will go right out of the owner's registrar account before they even know it. Why would any company leave the door open like that?
     
  7. poweredbyme

    poweredbyme Established Member

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    All of these are incorrect.

    "Marketplace is responsible because it's falicitating the sale."
    Marketplace is facilitating sale. But it's legal.

    "All your technical points might be correct but a non technical buyer doesn't understand this."
    You must learn before you do something, or accept you know what you are doing.

    "If you have bought a stolen car from any seller via trading platform , it's the responsibility of the platform to verify it before facilitating the sale."
    The platform must take reasonable precautions. Their responsibility is limited to taking reasonable precautions only. There is nothing in World like unlimited responsibility of someone as noone can control everything. Sedo will not send payout if the domain is not sent to escrow. If you are able to send the domain you are the owner. This is the FINAL proof of ownership. Sedo's responsibility ends there and has to pay the money to the seller/old owner. Saying Sedo is responsible equals to saying Sedo shouldn't pay the money to any seller after the domain changed hands. Sedo takes ALL reasonable and possible precautions. There is nothing can be done. The seller controls DNS and sends the domain after the sale and receives the money, Buyer pays the money to Sedo and receives the domain. Sedo's responsibility ends here. The domain moves from the buyer's registrar account after the sale. The registrar moves it, not Sedo. Sedo does everything correct. Registrar may be responsible if reasonable security precautions were not taken. However the real guilty is the thief.

    "Why did they accept the commission by the sale of a stolen domain name."
    How can Sedo know if a domain listed on their platform is stolen? They take all the possible steps to verify ownership. The domain is not known as stolen by anyone during the sale, including the buyer, not only Sedo. Plus, Sedo can not verify if the domain is really stolen unless Sedo can control respective registrar accounts. If you were Sedo or the seller, how could you make sure if the buyer is telling the truth? Buyer may tell lie, may claim the domain is stolen and may ask for refund from Sedo :) Have you ever thought about this possibility?

    Big platforms like Sedo that make millions of domain/money transactions can not do anything wrong knowingly, even if they want. They are corporates that are controlled, monitored by many organizations. Just try and establish a platform to facilitate selling stolen domains and watch what will happen to you. Do you think can you operate such a business in any part of the World?
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2019
  8. Daehler Ralph

    Daehler Ralph Upgraded Member Blue Account

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    First of all. Many buyers trust Sedo but they don't know what risk the go in buying domains from this platforms. And Sedo presents 'Buyer Protection' on their website. That's a joke. I know that there are hundreds of domain transaction a day to handle. But if you handle a hundred dollar transaction on the same way like hundred thousand dollar transaction then you have lost and getting 10 or 15% commission for it. That's really unbelievable.

    Sedo needs to increase much their security level for high priced domains.
    - Checking Whois History
    - Special Handling for Domains from special Registrars like Network Solutions. Would not be very complicated.
    - Insurance possibility

    I am working for a big company with 30000 Users on big ERP- and BW-Systems and Security is very important. Such companies should be very interested in preventing such stories. But obviously there is no interest while they get their money anyway and are saved by their contract conditions.

    It's very hard to rebuild a bad reputation if such stories happens often.
     
  9. poweredbyme

    poweredbyme Established Member

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    "First of all. Many buyers trust Sedo but they don't know what risk the go in buying domains from this platforms. "

    A thief may say that "I didn't know stealing is a bad thing. If I knew I wouldn't steal. I am really sorry, have just learned it. Thanks you all. You taught me a new thing. Please forgive me." Would you forgive?

    Lack of knowledge after a bad experience is a self deceit of the victim. Because victim knows, if he/she tries something for the first time, bad things can happen and takes all the unknown risks. When the risks has been realized, bad thing happens, victim forgets everything and tries to deceive himself/herself first and then the other people by using the argument of lack of knowledge about the risks. Indeed, nothing is guaranteed and everyone knows this. Even the clearly guaranteed things may not protect anyone after the risk has realized. Example? In a global level huge financial crisis, the bank you deposited all your money may go bankrupt in one night like other banks, and the next morning insurance company/government may not be able to pay you the guaranteed insuranced amount in your bank account. OR, you may be very careful on what you eat, how you live but you may catch a cancer. Even if you take all the precautions, the risk may realize.

    Murphy's law says "Anything that can go wrong will go wrong". If a bank can go banckrupt it will go bankcrupt. If there can be a very big financial crisis, it will happen. If you can be cancer you will be cancer. If you can buy a stolen domain, it will happen.


    "- Checking Whois History"
    It can't help. Whois updates say nothing to me. Even I never needed to look at Whois info for any reason, other than to know the domain age and expiration and registrar name. I don't need to know other info on Whois.

    "- Special Handling for Domains from special Registrars like Network Solutions. Would not be very complicated."
    It can help. If something happens again and again like a pattern, you may handle it more carefully. But what can be done? Would you be happy if Sedo refuses to list domains on their platform based on registrars? You may answer "yes" after the risk realized for you. But if you had no bad experience with any registrar, you would think Sedo discriminates registrars for no reason. It would affect Sedo's reputation and trust more negatively. It can help lowering the risks in one side but may rise the risks on the other "unknown" sides. Solving a problem should not create bigger problems. Medical doctors know this rule. First priority of doctors is "not to damage", curing comes secondary for them.

    "- Insurance possibility"
    It can help. Again, like "special handling", its damage to the business can be more compared to its expected benefit. Insurance system is based on punishing good things to compensate bad things. Insurance is a cost. The platform will reflect this extra cost to its prices (commissions). Customers who use only reliable registrars will be punished for the risks that are caused by the other users who don't use reliable registrars. You may end up with hating all kind of insurances if you contemplate for a long time on insurance.

    "I am working for a big company with 30000 Users on big ERP- and BW-Systems and Security is very important."

    I worked in the finance department of a multional insurance company, in its headquarter in my country. I worked for multiple companies (more than 20) -not only a single insurance company- which still have millions/billions of $$$$, millions/thousands of clients, thousands of suppliers, workers, distributors, branches, offices, cars, buildings, plants, etc. I work for myself for very long years. Companies pay you 1x even if you bring them extra 1,000x profit. Success is not paid, sometimes success may be punished if your managers envy or affraid of your success. Companies always pay you what's enough to survive for you, or a little better but never what you deserve. When you see this once, you can no longer work for any company. This happened to me for 20+ times in 20+ different companies. This is not fair.

    "Such companies should be very interested in preventing such stories. But obviously there is no interest while they get their money anyway and are saved by their contract conditions."

    You look at only one side, reputation, and you see it inadequately not in full. Company top management looks at all the sides which you can never see until you become the owner or top manager of a company. Reputation doesn't consist of only decreasing the number of complaints. You can easily repair broken reputation by making a donation to a popular non-profit organization, by sponsoring events like public music concerts, festivals, etc. The most dangerous thing to reputation is to raise the prices or to stop giving the free things. People are not affected by negative comments about a company. Even very few people read/hear/watch those. You can find too many negative comments about Paypal, Adsense, etc. on the internet if you search. If those negative events had an effect, Paypal would have no user. As this is a domaining forum "elephants and godaddy" story would be more familiar to the readers. What happened to godaddy? Nothing. It's still the leader in its industry. People don't care about unhappy customers until they become an unhappy customer.

    "It's very hard to rebuild a bad reputation if such stories happens often."
    Think about it again after reading the paragraph above.. It's a wrong assumption. The things don't go always rationally in the real life. People can take purchase decisions irrationally. Even I can defend "people rarely take purchase decisions rationally". This is one of the reasons of why the business life is unpredictable. Companies may pay 1x salary to a very clever male staff who brought 1000x profit and may pay 10x salary to a very sympathetic female staff who brought 1000x loss. Irrational financial decisions are at all levels, not only at consumer level.


    There is a solution:
    Buy domains from registrars. Registrars can monitor registrar accounts of any user, can read logs of updates in any domain, can see all the other domains in an account, can see credit card details, payment history, login hours, login countries, etc.. A registrar can revert back everything easier if someone tries to sell stolen domains on their platforms, can implement software that will lock transferring domain to buyer or payout to seller. It would be very hard for a third party marketplace or escrow service as they don't have the logs which a registrar has.

    Let's assume registrar marketplace couldn't notice and you bought a stolen a domain from a registrar marketplace, the risk has just realized!. You can ask for refund from the registrar more confidently as they controlled everything during the sale. They had the domain before they took your money, then took your money and gave you the domain and then they removed the domain which you paid for, from your account. There is only 1 actor in this scenario: Registrar. Everything in this process has been processed by the same actor: registrar. If something bad happens, registrar can not explain the things easily, in the end they had the domain and received the money to give you the domain. How can this be explained when they are unable to give you the domain? They will have to refund your money if they can't give you the domain. In other words, they would pay the costs of not taking necessary precautions. But when you buy from a third party, you can not ask for refund from the registrar directly. Because the registrar doesn't have your money. You can ask for refund from the third party marketplace/escrow but they have no knowledge or impact on selling stolen domain to you.


    A third party marketplace may have this 100% true explanation: "We are really sorry. We are ready to help you. But we didn't remove the domain from your registrar account after the sale, we don't know the reason, please ask your registrar." This explanation is 100% true with no doubt. They can't know why the domain has been removed from your registrar account. Because the only registrar account they can control is their own registrar account. They can't know what happened on other registrar accounts.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2019
  10. barybadrinath

    barybadrinath Upgraded Member Gold Account

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    I did not read it fully but in the nutshell it's understood to me that many legal arguments are coming from sedo's end which won't be acceptable in court of law.
    First of all it doesn't matter how much transactions are being done on sedo daily. Their responsibility towards 100k transaction must be equivalent to 1k USD transaction.
    Regarding how sedo will do domain ownership checking , it's sedo 's responsibility. Sedo is in domain business since more than 10-15 years , sedo must devise a way to do that.
    Why did sedo allow a thief to masquerade as the owner of cwc.com to sell his domain. If Sedo is allowing some thief to come and sell stolen domain and is passing money to thief then definitely sedo is at fault.
    Actually the rightful owner of cwr.com must also sue sedo. Sedo only allowed the stolen property to get liquidated.
    Why did USA govt shut down silk road then where site owner was neither the seller nor the buyer of black market items.

    Tomorrow if some hacker will stole trump.com and will and list and sell domain to some technically unknown buyer from other parts of the world , then still sedo will take no responsibility.
    As a domain buyer it's not necessary and requisite for me to learn and know about DNS , server , nameservers etc. I may be proficient in some other tech apart from domains , so does it mean that person who does not know technical stuff about domains CANNOT buy domain.
    That is why sedo exists. How come a thief was allowed to create account , list domain and get credited.
    Did sedo have money to thief personally. Don't they have any bank account details of seller.
    Did sedo not verify his detail when the account was created.
    Sedo says they take care of buyer as well as seller , in this case tell me did sedo take care of rightful owner of cwr as well as our buyer here.
    Whatever you are saying sir implies that in the shield of corporate tag , organisations , so called legal agreements , any thief can come and legally sell the stolen domain property on sedo.

    By allowing the thief to create account , by accepting the domain from thief in sedo's account and then again pushing stolen domain to conned buyer , and then again sending money for a stolen property to the thief , sedo is already hand in gloves with thief.

    Sedo did not do proper due diligence. I am sure thief created his sedo account on the basis of forge documents. Is sedo also taking part in all these fraud activities sir.
    Sedo must have a way to know the rightful owner name of any domain listed there .
    By all these practices sedo is allowing thieves to come and sell stolen properties legally on their platform and then get paid.
    Sedo is definitely at fault .
    Does sedo take commission only for accepting and pushing domain names .this can be done by a 10 year kid as well.
    And yes absolutely "buyer's protection" matters.
    Even buyer can sue sedo for conning him and the rightful owner of cwr must also sue sedo as sedo allowed his property to get sold .
     
  11. barybadrinath

    barybadrinath Upgraded Member Gold Account

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    """ A third party marketplace may have this 100% true explanation: "We are really sorry. We are ready to help you. But we didn't remove the domain from your registrar account after the sale, we don't know the reason, please ask your registrar." This explanation is 100% true with no doubt. They can't know why the domain has been removed from your registrar account. Because the only registrar account they can control is their own registrar account. They can't know what happened on other registrar accounts.""""

    Did ownership of cwr .com was not in the name of "[email protected] " during transfer process. Sedo first accepted the domain name from seller's account and then pushed it to buyer's account.
    Accepting the stolen property in their registrar account is also the crime and then again pushing stolen property in buyer's account is also a crime.
    Sedo cannot hide behind putting responsibility on registrar.
     
  12. Daehler Ralph

    Daehler Ralph Upgraded Member Blue Account

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    A lot of these companies (Registrars and Sales Plattform) are not prepared or organized to prevent this kind of crime.

    Well the strategy is quite simple how to hack domains and I think Alejandro practice it. You just need little programming knowledges, a anonym email account and a anonym url-Provider.
    - You collect from a lot of worthful domains the email adresses from their whois (NetSol or others)
    - Write a form programm with registrar logo which requests Username and Password and put that on a anonym server.
    - Send the url of the programm by email to all the collected Email Adresses with the information that the user has to verify his user account or to renew his domain.
    - Every user that follows this instructions give his account information to the hijacker.

    This way of hacking accounts is often used to get account- or creditcard informations.

    A 2FA-Security is necessary for them in the future!!!

    You are more save if you buy domains on registrar plattforms like GoDaddy. you have a great support, more secure and is less expensive too.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2019
  13. poweredbyme

    poweredbyme Established Member

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    An advanced internet user with secure computer will not need 2FA for his/her online accounts. 2FA must be optional.
    An advanced internet user will not enter his/her password on a fake page, will choose strong passwords, etc.
    Secure computer is run by a secure Linux operating system. Most websites are hosted by Linux computers that are open to all of kind of online dangers 24/7. If Linux wasn't secure most websites couldn't run.

    If you have an online business like domaining, you should use Linux computers, should spend time to learn about Linux and internet security. A domainer is expected to have more technical knowledge on computers and internet than an average internet user who uses internet for social media or paying utility bills online. If you don't know how to keep your online accounts secure from hacking, it's better for you to stay away from any internet based business until you learn it properly.

    If someone can steal your domains for your ignorance, and if you can get your domain back from the registrar, you may never need to learn anything. This type of ignorant domain owners is a bigger risk than any platform. Because their domains can be stolen again and again until they learn how to keep their accounts secure.

    PS. Since the beginning, I have not been commenting about a particular person, domain or platform on this thread.. I don't defend or accuse any particular person or entity on this thread. These are my general opinions on marketplaces and domain industry. I am neutral to the particular issue on this thread. I don't know if the domain mentioned on this thread is really stolen. For me, everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
     
  14. Daehler Ralph

    Daehler Ralph Upgraded Member Blue Account

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    I am getting no reaction from Network Solutions. They know who is the real thief but no reaction.

    On everybody here which read my response. To stop such awful stories.

    TRANSFER ALL YOUR DOMAINS AWAY FROM NETWORK SOLUTIONS TO A SERIOUS REGISTRAR!!!!!!!!!!

    Just my advice. GoDaddy, Epik, Uniregistry what else.
    It's not a problem from Sedo or Escrow. They just want to make fast money.
     
  15. Daehler Ralph

    Daehler Ralph Upgraded Member Blue Account

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    on all. be careful. same similar situation on sedo plattform. domain nip.com. registrant usa, seller russia???
    sedo again
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2019
  16. Acroplex

    Acroplex Top Member DomainGang.com PRO VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    Are you saying nip.com is stolen?
     
  17. Daehler Ralph

    Daehler Ralph Upgraded Member Blue Account

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    no i just mean you have to be careful. now the domain whois has now privacy set but before it wasn‘t and the owner is from usa and the seller info on sedo is russia. very strange. now sedo has limited obviously the seller info.
    in my case the whois country was usa and seller info mexico.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2019
  18. Acroplex

    Acroplex Top Member DomainGang.com PRO VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    So basically you have no idea if nip.com is stolen or not. But just because the seller is from Russia, or because it was sold on Sedo, you felt that this type of "warning" is justified?

    Trying to understand what type of message you're coming up with.
     
  19. Daehler Ralph

    Daehler Ralph Upgraded Member Blue Account

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    everybody have to due delligence self. i just don‘t want that this happens again to anybody else. sedo and network solutions doesn‘t care about it when it happens.

    a successful transfer is no buyer protection when the seller can reclaim back the domain a few week later.
     
  20. Acroplex

    Acroplex Top Member DomainGang.com PRO VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    Yes, so what does the general guidelines for "due diligence" have to do with nip.com? I see no reports of a sale. It's unfortunate you lost money by buying a stolen asset, but I see no validity in your warning about nip.com.
     
  21. Daehler Ralph

    Daehler Ralph Upgraded Member Blue Account

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    ou sorry. this domain is just listed for sale and i have forget to post that. i just meant before to be careful in buying this name.
     
  22. Acroplex

    Acroplex Top Member DomainGang.com PRO VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    Ok, it makes sense now.
     

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