Help me with Israeli debate topic

[-Alex-]

I'm a high school student and I've been able to make it to the national debate tournament starting next monday. There's a topic im stumped on so I'm wondering whether anybody from the community could help me with a few solid points? :p

The topic is whether we (U.S.) should continue to send ~ $4 Billion every year. I've already got all of my points for the negative side (meaning we should stop) but I'm wondering whether somebody has some unique points for the affirmative (meaning we should continue to send money).

The help will be much appreciated, and maybe i can send a few Np$ your way


Thanks,

-Alex-

 

[tristanperry]

Good luck with the debating contest Let us know how you get on!

Quick disclaimer (so this won't be picked up on and turned into a flame war): I am just giving some views to help the OP, I hope this topic stays civil (at least in the UK, Israel threads tend to turn into flame wars very quickly )

Onto some points:

1) As shown by the relatively unprovoked 6 day war, Israel is in a hostile environment. Since 1948, there's been numerous wars and 'minor' fights between Israel and its neighbours. Iran's current president (pending results today) once was quoted saying he wishes the Zionist regime was wiped from the page of time (oft-mis quoted as "Wipe Israel off the map", which isn't technically correct). Israel clearly needs protection.

2) A trivial point, although America and Israel are allies - allies help each-other and so sending $4 bn over is no major deal (especially since $4bn is tiny money compared to the amounts the Fed have spent bailing out US banks and insurance companies)

3) There's a strong Jewish community in America - turning on Israel could result in quite a heavy blow for the Incumbent President.

4) Whilst peace talks have been 'bigged up' in the media, nothing solid looks set to be agreed. Hence there is still a major problem in the middle east.

5) 10.8% of Israeli citizens are below the poverty line - so it's not exactly like everyone in Israel benefits from its relative (compared to its neighbours) good economy.

Will post again if I can think of more plus points

 

[-Alex-]

Good luck with the debating contest Let us know how you get on!

Quick disclaimer (so this won't be picked up on and turned into a flame war): I am just giving some views to help the OP, I hope this topic stays civil (at least in the UK, Israel threads tend to turn into flame wars very quickly )

Onto some points:

1) As shown by the relatively unprovoked 6 day war, Israel is in a hostile environment. Since 1948, there's been numerous wars and 'minor' fights between Israel and its neighbours. Iran's current president (pending results today) once was quoted saying he wishes the Zionist regime was wiped from the page of time (oft-mis quoted as "Wipe Israel off the map", which isn't technically correct). Israel clearly needs protection.

2) A trivial point, although America and Israel are allies - allies help each-other and so sending $4 bn over is no major deal (especially since $4bn is tiny money compared to the amounts the Fed have spent bailing out US banks and insurance companies)

3) There's a strong Jewish community in America - turning on Israel could result in quite a heavy blow for the Incumbent President.

4) Whilst peace talks have been 'bigged up' in the media, nothing solid looks set to be agreed. Hence there is still a major problem in the middle east.

5) 10.8% of Israeli citizens are below the poverty line - so it's not exactly like everyone in Israel benefits from its relative (compared to its neighbours) good economy.

Will post again if I can think of more plus points

Thanks. I've got a question tho, because the biggest argument is that Israel has ignored 66 U.N. reslutions, has targeted hospitals, perposefully blocked aid into palestine, etc... So would you know how to respond to that?

 

[tristanperry]

Thanks. I've got a question tho, because the biggest argument is that Israel has ignored 66 U.N. reslutions, has targeted hospitals, perposefully blocked aid into palestine, etc... So would you know how to respond to that?

I'd respond by arguing that that is sort of a biased interpretation of fact.

I don't know which UN resolutions were broken, and indeed it's bad to break them, although all the other sides have broken them too (the recent Israel-Hamas war was started by Hamas firing 320 rockets into Israel, the previous war against Hezbollah were started when Hezbollah kidnapped 2 Israeli soldiers)

They've never targeted hospitals - at least, that's not been their aim I'm sure. If you look at the statistics of civilian vs solider deaths in the wars, more Israeli civilians were killed than Palastinian/Lebanese (etc) civilians. Hezbollah and Hamas openly attack Israeli civilians, wheres Israel doesn't (or not on an official basis - you got rogue soldiers in every army in the World). To say that Israeli targets hospitals implies that Israel has an official policy to go out and murder many civilians; this isn't accurate and is a dangerous distortion of facts.

Some Palestinian aid was blocked since a sizeable amount of the aid was weapons. Hezbollah and Hamas aren't helping themselves by trying to smuggle weapons. And Hamas are in Government, but yet they spend much money on weaponary when their own civilians are starving. That's not Israel's fault IMO.

Let me just say - neither side is blameless. Anyone who sits solely in the "anti-Israeli" camp is biased and is ignoring the massive threats against Israel, just as anyone who sits solely in the "pro-Israeli" camp are also biased since some Israeli soldiers *have* targetted civilians and this is 100% wrong.

Although you have to look at things in proportion - Hamas and Hezbollah actively target civilians, Israel does not. But neither side are blameless and I feel really sorry for the civilians on both sides caught up in this.

 

[RogueWriter]

First, the U.S. does send aid to the Palestinians, and would send more, I am sure, if there was some form of peaceful resolution to be found. Here is a summary of some funds sent: USAID WEST BANK & GAZA - ABOUT US I think that the biggest problem with sending aid to them is that the powers in charge would use excess monies to conduct war with Israel.

Here are a number of reasons for supporting Israel....

Victor Davis Hanson on Israel on National Review Online

I can't vouch for the site, but maybe you could pick a few facts out of the article and check them for accuracy...

Here's an article supposedly of a U.S. senator...

Seven Reasons To Support Israel

 

[cityforums.com]

I'm a high school student and I've been able to make it to the national debate tournament starting next monday. There's a topic im stumped on so I'm wondering whether anybody from the community could help me with a few solid points? :p

The topic is whether we (U.S.) should continue to send ~ $4 Billion every year. I've already got all of my points for the negative side (meaning we should stop) but I'm wondering whether somebody has some unique points for the affirmative (meaning we should continue to send money).

The help will be much appreciated, and maybe i can send a few Np$ your way


Thanks,

-Alex-

Alex ... they sure gave you an easy topic :lol:


Here's one point ...

Did they ever teach you to KILL and HATE in the very high school that you attend ? How about grade school ?

Do you associate Mickey Mouse with death, destruction and killing ?

Why are these questions important to this issue ?

Because Israel is fighting an enemy that teaches their kids these valuable life lessons.

proof: there are hundreds such video on youtube
here's one YouTube - Hamas Mickey Mouse Teaches Terror to Kids

Good Luck with this endless and timeless debate.

 

[-Alex-]

Alex ... they sure gave you an easy topic :lol:


Here's one point ...

Did they ever teach you to KILL and HATE in the very high school that you attend ? How about grade school ?

Do you associate Mickey Mouse with death, destruction and killing ?

Why are these questions important to this issue ?

Because Israel is fighting an enemy that teaches their kids these valuable life lessons.

proof: there are hundreds such video on youtube
here's one YouTube - Hamas Mickey Mouse Teaches Terror to Kids

Good Luck with this endless and timeless debate.

Ok but the problem is this. The argument is that Israel has ignored u.n. peace resolutions, used thier power excessively (killing more palestinian civilians than their were killed) etc... Also that although Israel can be an ally, there is no reason we must send it ridiculous amounts of money (about $147 billion so far). So how do I respond.

Although sure, Hamas and similar authorities may be resolved for the destruction of Israel, there are a number of similar situations around the world—yet Israel is the only ally we decide to send $4 billion a year to.

Imo it's not an easy topic lol :D

Thanks for the help so far though. :sold:

_____________________________________________

RogueWriter,

I read through that article and unfortunately it isn't unique to U.S. aid to Israel, yet nevertheless it seems that the underlying point he makes is that Israel is a democracy and that we must protect all democracies. Yet the question I will be asked when I say that is, to what extent must we protect all democracies.

Thanks for the help!

+rep to both!

 

[dna]

The US sends Israel 4 billion a year as payment for making peace with Egypt and giving back some land east of the
Suez. So its sort of a contract that we made with Israel. We also send the same payment to Egypt.
Its the price that the US pays for peace between Israel and Egypt. Most of the billions we send to Egypt
are stolen by corrupt Egyptian politicians. Egyptian banks make loans to politicians that they know will never be
paid back. The entire Egyptian banking system would fail if not forthe yearly payments that they receive from the US.

 

[cityforums.com]

Ok but the problem is this. The argument is that Israel has ignored u.n. peace resolutions, used thier power excessively (killing more palestinian civilians than their were killed) etc... Also that although Israel can be an ally, there is no reason we must send it ridiculous amounts of money (about $147 billion so far). So how do I respond.

Although sure, Hamas and similar authorities may be resolved for the destruction of Israel, there are a number of similar situations around the world—yet Israel is the only ally we decide to send $4 billion a year to.

Imo it's not an easy topic lol :D

Thanks for the help so far though. :sold:

_____________________________________________

RogueWriter,

I read through that article and unfortunately it isn't unique to U.S. aid to Israel, yet nevertheless it seems that the underlying point he makes is that Israel is a democracy and that we must protect all democracies. Yet the question I will be asked when I say that is, to what extent must we protect all democracies.

Thanks for the help!

+rep to both!

---------------------------------------------


Alex ...

FACT ... whenever money is given to anybody (ex. welfare) they mostly waste it.

FACT ... It can be argued that we should give MORE money to Israel because

they do NOT WASTE IT ... the money we give to Israel comes back

to BENEFIT the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA in the form of advanced TECHNOLOGY.

Here's another video as proof.

YouTube - Cool Facts about Israel - New Version - Israeli Music

 

[tristanperry]

Ok but the problem is this. The argument is that Israel has ignored u.n. peace resolutions, used their power excessively (killing more Palestinian civilians than their were killed) etc... Also that although Israel can be an ally, there is no reason we must send it ridiculous amounts of money (about $147 billion so far). So how do I respond.

But that's the point - that *isn't* true. You can respond by pointing that out.

Israel may have ignored some UN peace resolutions, although the two previous wars were not caused by Israel.

You can also point out that Hamas use its citizens as Human shields, adopting the Hezbollah leader's mantra of "We are going to win because they love life and we love death." (Google it, it's a true quote)

In the Israel-Hamas war, Israeli civilian deaths were in a higher proportion (compared to Israeli soldier deaths) than Palestinian civilian deaths (compared to Hamas soldier deaths) - where did you get the stats from that the reverse was true?

Out of interest - what is the debate title, or are you given a set thing to argue against? Because what you seem to be being told is that Israel are the big bad boys here and Hamas and Hezbollah are lovely sweet organisations? It's difficult to argue against what seems to be a biased and scewed 'debate'?

It's just interesting that you are finding it hard to find things to defend Israel with when I find the complete opposite to be true lol I guess you just have to think that no one side is completely in the right or wrong here, but the view of Israel as an abusive power is incorrect, distorted and dangerous.

 

[-Alex-]

Just to make sure you guys know, I'm not trying to argue with the points your giving me, just pointing out what the opposition would say and how I should go about adressing that.

Cosmicray, although it may be true that we get advanced technology from the Israeli's (from our money) why don't we simply use that money to develop the technology on our own? (again, I just want to see how you/I should respond, not trying to do this for the sake of argument).

Tristan,
Although I agree the 2 previous incursions/wars where not caused by Israel, it will be said that Israel used much excessive force (killing a significant amount more civilians (and displacing many) than actually Hamas/Hezbolah soldiers or terrorists. The stats about civialian deaths on both sides are as follows: there have been over 5,000 Palestinian civilian deaths since 2000 while 500 on the Israeli side (Israeli newspaper, Ma’ariv, Dec. 2008).

Like what I feel will be the biggest argument will be that in the lastest Israeli incursion this late last year, there where 5 israeli deaths while 1.5 million palestinian residents displaced and 550 killed (BBC news and Nytimes), something which the U.S. has sent nearly another billion dollars to that region to help the local palestinian people.

I think the basic argument is going to be that the Israeli's, although sometimes provoked, have used excessive force. As well as that Israel is self-supportive and in no other ally in the world does the U.S. give billions annualy (something which they will likely claim is greater needed here at home).

Again, not being biased lol, I've just already formed an argument against providing aid and I haven't had as much luck on forming the other side so the things that I'm pointing out are just so I get a better idea of how I'll reply if I'm asked similar things

+Rep all! +NP$ All!

Thanks for all your guys's help!

-Alex-

 

[tristanperry]

Hi Alex,
Hehe sure thing I can understand you're just probing the opposition view.

Although I agree the 2 previous incursions/wars where not caused by Israel, it will be said that Israel used much excessive force (killing a significant amount more civilians (and displacing many) than actually Hamas/Hezbolah soldiers or terrorists. The stats about civialian deaths on both sides are as follows: there have been over 5,000 Palestinian civilian deaths since 2000 while 500 on the Israeli side (Israeli newspaper, Ma’ariv, Dec. 2008).

That is true (the excessive force comment) and it's not the easiest to argue against. I guess you can argue that Israel have repeatedly stated that if attacked, they will respond with greater force:

"Hamas militants face a simple equation," Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee Chairman Tzachi Hanegbi told Army Radio. "If the [rocket] fire resumes, we will respond with force so strong and overpowering, they will miss the day the Israel Air Force's offensive began."

Unfortunately the patten here is usually that things are fine, and then Israel is attacked and then Israel use excessive force as promised. And then the media (at least in the EU) and the UN attack Israel, even though they've 'laid their cards on the table' so to speak.

Additionally, a few days after the Israel-Hezbollah cease-fire, someone fired a few rockets into Israel again. This just provokes things further - a very costly war occurred, a cease-fire is finally agreed to and then some anti-Israeli fired rockets. This isn't Israel's fault, and I don't blame them all that much for using excessive force since Israel have said they'll use excessive force if attacked. They then get attacked and everyone is surprised that Israel seems OTT.

Thanks for the civilian death numbers. I'm sure I remember seeing the figures for the two recent wars - IIRC it was a case that more Hamas/Hezbollah soldiers (in proportion) were killed than Israeli soldiers. Could be wrong though.

Like what I feel will be the biggest argument will be that in the lastest Israeli incursion this late last year, there where 5 israeli deaths while 1.5 million palestinian residents displaced and 550 killed (BBC news and Nytimes), something which the U.S. has sent nearly another billion dollars to that region to help the local palestinian people.

That is a big argument, and I don't defend Israel when so many residents were displaced. All I'd say in defense (albeit not the strongest of defenses) is that Hamas/Hezbollah used their own citizens as Human shields, and they knew exactly what'd happen to their own citizens when they attacked. But they still attacked. History seems clear that, given the choice, Israel's neighbours will leave their own citizen's suffering so they can go to war. This particular aspect isn't Israel's fault.

As well as that Israel is self-supportive and in no other ally in the world does the U.S. give billions annualy (something which they will likely claim is greater needed here at home).

I guess it can be argued that $4bn or whatever the figure is is a tiny amount. The Fed (via the Troubled Asset Relief Program) have given hundres of billions to its banks to secure them (something which many don't agree with) so $4bn really isn't that much.

And also out of all its allies, Israel is the one which is most likely to be completely destroyed and annihilated. The threat is still very real and very prominent, and a war with Iran is surely not too far away (whenever the US green light it or with Israel deem the threat to be too great)

 

[-Alex-]

Just got back from the tournament in Alabama a few hours ago...

It went relatively well, I was able to make it to semifinals in the tournament.. and considering I've been doing it for less time than most im happy with that. Hopefully next year I can get even further! (i need the scholership money!)

Thanks for your guys' help.

-Alex-