Getting started

[redhippo]

i am just getting interested in building my own web pages. any suggestion on how to start and what software to use?
some "fool proof" ideas, hints and short cuts would be helpful!!

thanks
red

 

[pinkfluffybunny]

Go read this - http://www.forextips.com/webhelp.htm

 

[TWM]

i would suggest that you start with Microsoft Frontpage. I suggest this for newbies because you can do things in normal mode, and then see what you did in HTML mode.... this helps learn the code and how it all works

 

[Tjobbe]

stay clear of frontpage, I say this because it may confuse you in the long run, frontpage does not write valid html and can cause a lot of errors, better of with dreamweaver (macromedia).

 

[redhippo]

????confusing advice...hmmm:tri: frontpage or dreamweaver?

 

[e39m5]

yes, rfrontpage uses weird syntax, try dreamweaver

 

[identity_00]

Well I would say open notepad and learn it by hand.

 

[Slewey]

Originally posted by idevisedesign
i would suggest that you start with Microsoft Frontpage. I suggest this for newbies because you can do things in normal mode, and then see what you did in HTML mode.... this helps learn the code and how it all works

think you should start off with a editor indeed.
helps you learn the codes and aswell see what your doing. but suggest using Dreamweaver instead of frontpage.
same reasons as given above.
hope this helps any

 

[innovative]

Definately use Dreamweaver.

 

[pinkfluffybunny]

lol,

use fp or dw, doesn't matter. I use several, all have they're strong points and bad points. 95% of you're visitor will be using a microsoft browser (frontpage is microsoft - what do you think).

Those guys talking about weird syntax, have probably heard stories about 2002 and previous versions not meant to edit aspx. 2003 fixed the aspx issues that were in previous verisons.

Dreamweaver is a little harder for a noob. Kids like it cause they can get lotz of mmx's.
You don't have to hand code html (you don't have to be a chemist to paint your house)

if you want to do it for a living later - Learn dot net - no matter what the open source junkies say.

 

[BoRiCuA]

The two best combinations to have are: Adobe PhotoShop & Dreamweaver.

Dreaweaver is nice for people that don't know that much HTML and are beginners..

Of course I don't use DreamWeaver since I'm a HTML nerd:D

 

[Spirited]

Dreamweaver is a very powerful tool, but I get the feeling it might be a little too complicated for a beginner - its like getting a Harley before you can ride a push bike.

It is also somewhat folly to begin making websites using a WYSIWYG editor since at somepoint you will need to go in and code by hand to get precisely what you want and if you don't know the syntax you will be in trouble.

I hand code XHTML and CSS in notepad, my code is clean, it loads fast and most importantly I know exactly how it works (so if there is a problem I can go and fix it).

So, I would recommend starting off with notepad (for starters it's cheap!) so that if later you do move on to Dreamweaver you will understand how it works, and therefore have more control over what you want to do.

Does anyone know of a notepad like editor which puts the html in pretty colours like DW does? (thats pretty much its most useful attribute)

Spirited

 

[pinkfluffybunny]

These guys telling you to hand code are out of their minds.

The future of web design will be in object based modules (that run server side). These html nuts are lost in the 80's.
Want to be part of the future of the web, start leaning object based design. Want to make money learn to write the objects.

Html will soon go the way of the old 2400 baun bulletin boards.

This html junkies are shoeing horses betting that cars won't last.

Both FP and DW support object based design.

If you're playing both are fine.

Photoshop is about $700.00 (most of the kiddies have a pirated verison)., but there are a lot of free graphics programs that are more than adequate for beginner web design. The priciples are the same, you learn the basics you can use most software.

If you're just gonna play, it doesn't matter get the cheapest.

 

[identity_00]

If you ever want to be a serious html programmer you'll need to know it without any help from a wysiwyg editor.
NO ONE (well..maybe some cheap company paying 9 bucks an hour) will ever hire you to maintain their site without knowing it by hand. Dont you want to be able to go into anyones sites and be able to make modifications? What about people coming to you for work? Why limit yourself in design and financial options.
In this type of work you need to be able to take all.

HTML wont go away. The internet was built and still is with HTML.
HTML is the most basic language and really is easy to learn.
I would argue and say most sites are built in pure html alone.

Start with PhotoShop. Dont waste your time with lower class programs. Eventually your going to want it or will need it so get use to it - might as well start there.

Photoshop is has a larger learning curve than html.

Good luck.

 

[pinkfluffybunny]

LOL

"HTML wont go away. The internet was built and still is with HTML."

This translates in 1919 to,
Horses wont go away. transportation is the horse and still is the Horse.

Here start with this FREE .net web builder. (Easy-to-use WYSIWYG application development tool for ASP.NET)

http://www.asp.net/webmatrix/

It will get you started (if you're just getting started don't worry about the graphics), you can hire these $50.00 a page fools to fill in the blanks after you have created the important stuff, that is if you can train them to get off the horse and learn code xml.

Would you rather work here - http://www.adecco.co.uk/

or here - http://www.fliphosting.com/

This is what a "a serious html programmer" does - This is an error report on his home page - http://64.200.117.8/junk/evaluation-html.htm

Because he feels so strongly that you shouldn't start with a cheaper version, like elements or a free version like gimp, he wants to front you the money to buy Photoshop.
Man, I'd take advantage of that.

If you are using gif or RGB color space and you don't particularly care about CMYK color space (Professional printing) and you don't want to pirate:

GIMP - It is an extremely powerful program very similar to Photoshop.

http://www.wingimp.org/

It's open source and free. The setup is kind of messy, but once it is done you can fire up a Photoshop clone that is impressive:

Supports Photoshop filters
scripts, brushes, patterns, palettes, gradients,layers, masks..ohh hell it's a photoshop clone.
and there are hundreds of tutorials that translate.

When you "buy" your first copy of PhotoShop, you will be very familiar with it's operation.


Hey identity_00,
while you're at it, I want to give my kids a registered copy of photoshop to replace the draw program, when you buy his copy get me one too...thanks

 

[identity_00]

You'll have to make up your own decision redhippo.
I have already made mine and have taken that path.

I dont think your ready for asp or PHP or working with
databases yet or .net, perl, cgi, perhaps flash whatever.
But that is just MO. If you havent started HTML yet and that
is looking somewhat complicated, then you will have a rude awakening ahead if you think your just going to pickup perl , .net or whatever in two weeks by reading a book or even following online examples.

As far as graphic design is concerned:
PhotoShop is the Industy standard I wouldnt use any other.
Why use Linux on your home computer when Windows is king?
Why use Notepad for typing when you got Word?
Why use paint or others when you got PhotoShop?
And by the way I own PhotoShop and just about every other Adobe product -Thank you very much.

I have done this for nearly 10 years now and have several online companys not to mention http://www.FlipHosting.com
(which currently has x,xxx satisfied customers on multi servers and multi hosting sites- thank you very much) not to mention being ranked #5 (right above acehost.com, easyspace.com, and other big companys. ) with over 23 million hosting results.
I have other sites that have been placed within very competitive business markets 3 times higher than FlipHosting
(between and above Google, IBM, Businessweek, and even Microsoft. with over 66 million business results) All being first page placements and receive a lot of customers.

NOTHING in this industry is more important than time and its
very easy to waste. Wingimp doesnt look that impressive to me.
The logo looks very choppy and the pixels dont blend well. Two of the samples look the same (castle and foot print look choppy also). The only good image is the car sample image - and I would label it "suspect" of just being loaded and labeled as being made with the wingimp software. I have never used it, however.
Give it a shot maybe what your looking for under 100 bucks.

Any tips? well I would say to learn up on search engine optimization and intregrate that into your websites before starting in whatever type of design you choose.
Save some time - Whats the point of a site that nobody
can find?

Good luck to you -

pinkfluffybunny - PM some businesses you've developed with search engine placements demonstrating your online business skills. Please no websites - just actual business/es making money. If you have some good wingimp images also you've made feel free to share. Perhaps I will buy the new verson.
I will be patiently wait... thanks.

 

[redhippo]

thanks pinkfluffybunny and identity_00 for both sides of the arguement and insights

will have to think which is the best for me anywhere
thanks again, very helpful.

 

[pinkfluffybunny]

Guys,
If there is a noob just starting out. Why not tell him to start with what is going to be the future.

Dot net is no harder for him to learn then HTML was for you or me.

Example: If you or I had to build an ad management system, we had to build a database, script to connect to it, script to read the database, script to track it, then we had to develope a rotation system, security, and on and on. It took weeks.

Now all that information can be included in the banner itself, one object, that loads faster than a gif or flash.

That is what kids are playing with now, like you and I played with html. Look these kids are taking objects apart and making in less than a hundred lines of code, what took us pages and pages. http://www.123aspx.com/redir.aspx?res=31965 And we had to develop other means.

The internet is only 20 years old. Where were airplanes 20 years after the Wright Brothers?

I wasn't putting your company down. But can you afford to pay a kid 100,000 + a year.

I also was in this business back in the bb days, before the GUI interface. Back when searching the internet meant writing your own code to search. I've seen the hundreds of ISP's come and go.
2400 baun modems stacked to the ceiling days.

Look at the prices you can get a site for now. You can get better service for free than what they charged for service in the business 10 years ago.

In order to complete with every kid with pirated software and 600 a month to get a T, we have to evolve.

You don't tell a kid to purchase professional software, to learn with. I know developers who still use gimp, and can't understand why you would tell this kid to buy something that has the same engine as photoshop, uses the same layout, interface, etc. And it's free. (I don't own the open source)
The kid will be producing 72 dpi for the web, not professionally designed logos, banners, and billboards.

You ask those questions above -
Like why use notepad instead of word -
Before the advent of those wysiwyg interfaces that's what we used... and until just recently when they came out with an editor that didn't kill aspx, java, etc, that's what we used. We don't need to anymore. That's the point.

Why don't you hand code when you use MS Word? Why use word? Why not hand code in notepad? Because you don't have time, you want to get your work done and move on. It's the same with html.

If windows is king (and I agree with you it is) Why are you using UNIX based hosting servers. Could it have to do with the costs involved with using the kings products. Of course it is.
You can't charge someone $38.00 a year and offer, sql, exchange server, ssl, dot net, Access, SQL, Visual FoxPro, Fox Pro, etc. compatability, Ipswitch mail or IMail Server, frontpage server extentions, Unlimited email accounts, IIS6, OC-3 connections, NetShow, etc., etc.

I wasn't being insulting, when I asked if the kid wanted to work there or at a multi-divisional corporation. I was simply pointing out that your targeted consumer base and theirs are different. They can afford to pay for developers, because their clients pay "hugh", sums of money to find qualified employees.

So don't take it personal.

This is a board that some kids and even business people come to to get advice.

If a kid can get a free program that works like PS, and he can start out in the right direction, and whenhe goes to work use the company's copy of PS, then why not.
Yea, We purchase copies of the latest Adobe products, every year. But, if I didn't have an software budget (or get software free because we beta test stuff), I would look for good working alternatives, gimp..

Did someone tell you, you're not ready for HTML? In 3 weeks he will be able to code online interactive applications that no html coder can do today.

Ok, I know you got your feelings hurt when I posted your home page html errors. But I know, no businessman has time to be a hand code purist and not make a lot of mistakes - cheap shot.
IE browsers could give a rats ass if the code is right - it just pops it up for you and me. Hell, you could do it in word and IE5 will play it.

So now you want me to prove I can do SEO.
Here's the deal, we monitor develop keyword phases based on what the targeted audience is searching for and try to get them near the top. For the particular company in the report below, there are over 150 non-bid (they don't have to pay for), the report below contains just one grouping of keyword phases we work on, daily. "Everyday", we monitor the placement and watch the competitions attempts to beat them, on a group. It is placement wars. We do hundreds of reports a month.

example:

http://www.forextips.com/stats/42004.htm
We then make recommendations, taking into consideration, the seo, sales and lead data, and visitor statistics.
Just getting a certain number of people there isn't always going to help you reach your objectives! The are a lot of other factors.

If you run one to check the results, please send it to me, it will save me 2 or 3 minutes...lol

As I'm sure you know, SEO is a small part of the over all marketing campaign. And only a small part of the overall ad campaign. But it is something a small businessman can do for free and a monkey can learn to do SEO in a week.


When I write in here, I'm giving free advise, but no different than I would to a client.
The difference between what you wrote can be summed up by:
You said, "Wingimp doesnt look that impressive to me",
I would downloaded it, do research, test it, evaluate it, before I made a recommendation.

And one last thing - IF YOU WANT TO BUY WINGIMP - I WILL BE HAPPY TO SELL YOU A COPY - BUT I WOULD RECOMMEND, HE JUST DOWNLOAD - IT'S FREE. :cy: