NameSilo

Ethics of staying quiet when newbies reg rubbish?

Located in General Domain Discussion, started by DomainGist, May 30, 2020

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  1. DomainGist

    DomainGist BigDomains.co.uk VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    I dip in and out of this forum, leave for 9 months, back for 6 etc. Most recently quit domaining and had a change of heart and started to rebuild.

    But every time I come back here I see a few newbies hand-registering absolutely turgid rubbish by the hundreds or even thousands.I won't name any names here as it would look like an attack.

    I know that some people just won't listen, and I see a few people trying to get them to stop, but these people are undermined by people who 'like' their reg of the day.

    Lets be clear here, I'm not talking about 'subjectivity' here, but I'm talking about people registering domains with 3 hypens, or 50 character nonsense domains.

    So two questions:

    1. Do we have moral obligation to be straight with these newbies and tell them that they are registering rubbish, even if this is a thankless task and the person refuses to listen and even doubles down on what they are doing.

    2. Is it ethical for experienced domainers to 'like' posts which seem to validate the newbies selections.

    I look at some of these people with thousands of completely unsellable hand regs, and on one hand I do think that they probably play their part in keeping registration and renewal prices down for every domainer as these nonsense domains are part of the ecosystem and generate cash for the registry and registrars, but on the other hand these domainers could be in debt, or blowing money from family savings without their wives knowing.

    I find it very difficult to see people spending like $7000 on terrible handregs without saying something.

    One particular individual got very angry with me and suggested that he isn't rich enough to get domains from closeout, but a domain from closeout costs what... $25 including one year renewal, and this individual has hundreds and hundreds of hand regs from all sorts of extentions. So if they took their time they could build a decent port of say 100 closeout domains over a period of 12-18 months, that would probably cost them less.

    Why do people ignore these newbies and let them waste their money, and more importantly why do some people seem to encourage this really self-destructive and damaging behaviour by pressing 'like' on red-widget8383eu.biz or whatever nonsense they have registered?

    Thoughts?
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2020
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  2. NickB

    NickB Aka MrAcidic VIP

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    I would much rather be told by experienced, successful domainers which of my names are crap and why.....good way to learn imo

    Some people just believe their own hype, think they know better or are just pig headed....you can't help everyone but you can be honest with your feedback, it is then up to that person to decide what to do with that advice
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2020
  3. NickB

    NickB Aka MrAcidic VIP

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    One more thing......

    @Joe Nichols made a good point in another thread, when newbies post their fresh regs in the reg of the day thread they think they are getting positive justification from people on their domains. This makes it difficult to reason with them as they can say "look I have xxxx likes from xxx posts" I must be doing something right

    (I fell into this trap when I started out as well, so coming from my own personal experience it is easy to be lulled into a false sense of security)
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2020
  4. Rob Monster

    Rob Monster CEO, Epik Epik.com Staff PRO VIP Gold Account

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    Almost every domain investor goes through the phase where they think they found something that others missed and then back up the truck. Early in my own domaining career, I had 5000 domains at Godaddy, and probably kept 5% of those in the end. So, yes, it is a thing and we do see it often.

    Sometimes the stories are heartbreaking, e.g. people who spent their entire nest-egg on names that are almost unsellable. The reality is that the vast majority of the 390 million domains registered are of no value to anyone, even the registrant themselves.

    If you see someone spending way too much on domains that are almost certainly not to sell, or where the new investor has a wildly uninformed expectation, I think you can gently engage them in a dialog about their domain investing history and see if they want any help selling their domains. Some will appreciate the help.

    DomainGraduate.com is a free online course that we did produce in part for this exact reason. The course was acquired from veteran domainer, Sean Stafford, and then upgraded. We made it free from the outset, precisely to help more folks learn before they spend big. It exists in a few languages now.
     
  5. Zagalee

    Zagalee Established Member

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  6. NickB

    NickB Aka MrAcidic VIP

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    Problem is Rob a lot of people get very defensive and angry when you try and be truthful/helpful.....

    Luckily for me I have thick skin, some people though do not like to hear the truth
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2020
  7. bmugford

    bmugford www.DataCube.com PRO VIP ICA Member ★★★★★★★★★★

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    I try to help people stop wasting money, but you are often met with belligerent push back and no respect for people who have actually accomplished something in the field.

    I am willing to help someone who wants to learn, but it seems like more and more Dunning Kruger's seem to think they already know it all.

    Brad
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2020
  8. equity78

    equity78 Top Member TheDomains Staff TLDInvestors.com PRO VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    Exactly most people don't want help and think you are a hater. There is also the part about telling another human being you no little about how to spend their money.

    Lastly, most importantly in my opinion, I have written before about how when bad names sell it traps people into thinking their names are good.

    https://tldinvestors.com/2020/01/domainer-trap.html

    I would also add I know who Brad Mugford is and his background, for many a nameless avatar giving advice who themselves has never displayed any real success whether from being private or they actually have had none, will illicit responses from new investors that are less than receptive.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2020
  9. equity78

    equity78 Top Member TheDomains Staff TLDInvestors.com PRO VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    Writing educational posts back in the day when I started the .tv subforum. Some would love them others would email me or message me and say things like, "Great post Raymond but I don't care about the education, I just want money, tell me how to get the money."
     
  10. NickB

    NickB Aka MrAcidic VIP

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    I am not surprised in the slightest, a lot of people expect things to land in their lap with no effort or without putting in the hard graft and have a sense that the world owes them something.....come across a lot of people like this, sadly.
     
  11. Jimmysun

    Jimmysun Established Member

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    That's how I called .com has bubbled long time ago, people rather reg rubbish .com than choose a decent matched .ngtlds, they thought rubbish+.com means gold and king.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2020
  12. Don Gondon

    Don Gondon Established Member

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    Why would you try to save anyone?

    The whole domain industry is but a microbe comparing to gambling. People waste terrific amounts of money on what is essentially a scam and sometimes have their lives completely ruined by that.

    As well there are "freemium" video games which are unfair by design, make people addicted and then suck their cash, stupid farm games and so much more. Not mentioning real life addictions to alcohol and drugs. Comparing to all that, people who have a hobby of domain registration while doing this on NP and keep communicating with others are certainly not hopeless!

    Besides, everyone here is everyone's competition. Each "unsellable" domain is in favor of an aftermarket one: when a person starts looking for a name for their project, they might consider a "worthless" ZZZ but it is taken. Could be worth registering, but not worth buying, sure, its an unsellable name! So they go and buy XXX because of it, because of "unsellable" ZZZ not being available.

    And finally, it is quite often that aftermarket names are never being used after purchase. They may sit idle for years and even end being dropped. So buying aftermarket domains sometimes is a "waste of money" for the end users too. Would you agree to unconditionally refund everyone who never happened to use a name they purchased from you? Because, you're such a good person :xf.wink:
     
  13. HotKey

    HotKey Made in Canada VIP

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    Agree with you guys, the amount of time and effort put in will usually only result in push-back or negativity.. a large percentage seeing constructive criticism as a personal attack, unfortunately.

    I have seen very level-headed individuals, Joe Nichols as example, trying real hard to give fair feedback and it just gets ripped apart.

    Guess one of the ways of looking at all hand-reg that we simply KNOW will be in the dumpster in a year is that for many new domainers, it is almost a rite of passage. They might lose monetarily, but gain insight and experience that knowing what to buy leads to learning what sells.

    As for "likes", for me personally I use the like button in many many cases not as that I like something, rather as an acknowledgement of the post, so that the user knows I've read it and not ignoring a reply or quote, for example.

    I understand how it can be aggravating seeing over the years the same mistakes being made, but take heart that out of the many that go through the initial hand-reg phase, it might be used as stepping stone to getting comfortable with naming, polishing and refining their skill. Even if only just a few emerge with a positive mindset to use it as such, in a way it is a success.
     
  14. BaileyUK

    BaileyUK Account Closed (Requested) VIP

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    The real trouble with being honest in your criticisms of poor registrations is that it is quite often undermined by many more ill informed domainers posting positive comments . So everytime you offer as advice and add your reasons why - it's going to be countered by many more just "Great - worth $X,XXX easily etc etc. (these are people that often dedicated to their own bad buying)

    This is particularly true with appraisals of new TLD's . So who does the poster choose to believe. ?? Then of course your also going to be attacked by those other commentators who feel your post is an attack on them also. (Thankfully, has decreased somewhat as of late - but that has been mostly due to calling these people out)

    The real shame is is that we have some popular posters on here at NP, who really don't have a clue about buying or selling domains (or very little) - they'll argue the toss about their history - but unfortunately that seems to be mostly prolific posting rather than any Real experience . You know the type Happy to defend their "I made ten sales" what they wont comment on is that they barely add up to a $100 in total. Still they have NP badges that say they are Brilliant,

    I love to give positive feedback and comments where I can - (that was a nice four letter domain posted yesterday that I enthused about) Just these are hard to find to talk about - My stance these days is to Counter the bullshitters in the thread and take the Flack - NOT the original poster requesting comments
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2020
  15. DomainGist

    DomainGist BigDomains.co.uk VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    Can't help but feel that you've gone off topic somewhat, I've not suggested anybody refunds anything to anybody.

    I dunno, to try and be a nice guy? General duty of care towards other humans? Some of us are in the business of trying to match domains with end users who could build businesses on them, rather than in the business of wanting to see other domainers fail. Some guy blowing $7k on poor handregs doesn't make it easier for me to sell a domain to a startup.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2020
  16. Focusduster

    Focusduster New Member

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    I would like to be told the truth about my domains being junk and believe me i am one of those who has registered some junk domains. I would not be upset if a person told be it was worth $1 or absolutely $0. Obviously I am doing something wrong and would go back and do some research. I like doing this as a hobby and i enjoy messing around with names,Ideas and would only register what i can afford.

    I think also the appraisals out there do not help the matter making out it can be a quick buck which of course is not true.
     
  17. equity78

    equity78 Top Member TheDomains Staff TLDInvestors.com PRO VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    Spot on we have even seen people register blatant trademark domains, experienced investors tell them they are looking for trouble and someone else come in and say oh it's fine, make ppc til they get to filing a udrp against the domain name.
     
  18. equity78

    equity78 Top Member TheDomains Staff TLDInvestors.com PRO VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    The flipside for the newer investors should be always to figure out who is giving advice,

    I have said for well over a decade,

    Tell me what you own, what you have sold and what you have developed?

    Can't answer that for any reason, I just move right past all your words don't even see them it becomes like banner blindness.
     
  19. Bob Hawkes

    Bob Hawkes Top Member NameTalent VIP Gold Account Trusted Blogger

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    I think the most important contribution that can be made is to share information and tools, and encourage people to be realistic with expectations, and not to invest more than they can afford to potentially entirely lose. Sometimes sharing our own experiences, both positive and negative, can be helpful, as long as we make clear that they were our experiences.

    But we should not do anything that takes the responsibility for their decisions away from the person themselves. Each of us should be responsible for our own decisions. I am sort of opposed to how the appraisal thread works in practice. I think that it should be required that the person asking for the appraisal first explains their own thinking and give a worth range. Then they are looking for a second opinion. Others should respectfully critique the thinking, both positive and negative, and things that might have overlooked, or simply add data, instead of current system where often the response is simply: oh it is worth $$$$ or handreg with no support for the statement.

    One has to be careful, even if well meaning, in promoting what has worked for you (particularly if with a portfolio that was assembled a decade ago) as working for everybody.

    Also we must not promote anything as guaranteed success. I shudder when I read things like "grab expired .com and you will be fine". Obviously one can, and many do, lose a huge amount of money doing just that. The really hard part is what domain names are worthwhile, not how they were obtained or simply their TLD.

    I do not agree that NamePros members are in general not open to education. It seems to me that people are enthusiastic to learn so they themselves can find a good list of comparator sales, check on trademarks, see how many extensions are registered and how many are for sale, see if this name was registered before and how it was used, see how many companies have used similar names, etc. The more people are empowered to make their own decisions the better.

    While I still have a lot to learn, I think I know more about human nature and education than I do about branding and domain names. How do people learn things? They learn from being in a positive environment that exposes them to multiple viewpoints and stresses to be responsible for their own decisions. They learn by seeing others use logic and evidence to make decisions. They learn from being in environments that are kind and respectful. They learn from seeing validated success, and also failure.

    Interventions can help people learn more rapidly, with fewer errors along the way, but they must be done emphasizing the positive. For the most part, people do not learn from simply being told they are doing something wrong. In fact, in other fields of study, but I suspect that it applies to domain investing too, telling someone they are doing something wrong actually reinforces them doing the wrong thing, because the natural reaction of most of us is to push back when told we are doing something wrong.

    Think of something difficult that you have eventually learned, be it golf or painting or mathematics, and consider what your path to success was. I found writing hard in first year university. I had a kindly senior prof who did not tell me all the things I was doing wrong, but gently simply encouraged me to write a lot and to reflect on what was good and bad in my own writing. He shared a few tips and technical things, and always had an open door to discuss things, but it was my responsibility, not his, to identify what I needed help with. I came to love to write. Some of my friends were in different classes. From week two, pages of red ink and direct commentary on how terrible their writing was, and lectures on the right way to do things. Some of them came to hate writing.

    It is a difficult question this thread is about. I am glad that many wise voices have spoken.

    Just some Saturday morning thoughts. Perhaps only meaningful to me.

    Take care,

    Bob
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2020
  20. BaileyUK

    BaileyUK Account Closed (Requested) VIP

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    Well considering your referring to poor domains Rob. You must have a hell of a lot of spare time to waste
     
  21. BaileyUK

    BaileyUK Account Closed (Requested) VIP

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    I have no problem with people being evangelist by nature. I do however object to it being supported and demonstrated by very rare examples as if as in someway supporting that bad decision making. Even when positivism is intended

    This is not a church or classroom where you can nurture understanding or direction over time even years.(as in your example) This is a Business proposition we are talking about here, I think many times,(probably most) The Cold hard truth will always save both wasted money, time and frustration and possibly even far worse. Even when the truth hurts.

    For me giving my reasons and justifications is far better for learning than blanket encouragement. Unfortunately many don't have the historic experience to share - And I understand that
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2020
  22. HotKey

    HotKey Made in Canada VIP

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    There have been some quality guides created, that could be "stickied" or pinned to the top of a thread, easily accessible by newcomers or repeat hand-reg offenders. This way the opportunity is there to minimize potentially costly mistakes and help with the learning curve.
    eg.
    https://www.namepros.com/threads/domain-investing.1137790/
    https://www.namepros.com/blog/hand-registering-domain-names.1192637/
    https://www.namepros.com/threads/domains-101-infographic.853320/

    At the very least they are pointed in the right direction. I mean, there are those who will do their own thing regardless but such is human. Some of these really helpful threads get buried over time when they deserve to be front and center in the interests of all investors.
     
  23. pb

    pb Established Member ★★★★★★★★★★

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    I tend to stay quiet when I see people posting crap domains in "reg of the day" or "snap of the day" threads, just as I tend to stay quiet when people post crap domains going for 4-figures in "report completed sales". :whistle:

    Thing is, it's very subjective so while it's great to share tips and advice about regging/buying domains, it's not always wise to comment on how someone uses that advice, because nobody is always right.
     
  24. equity78

    equity78 Top Member TheDomains Staff TLDInvestors.com PRO VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    Agree with what you are saying and I think one of the disconnects is why people are here?

    I remember there was a post I got busy I did not reply but Keith was saying, something along the lines of we are here to do business this is what this is about.

    And I agree with Keith it's why I am involved in domaining (never found it fun) but there are many here who this is their social network or they are a hobbyist. So they don't see the business proposition, they are not doing any or little business.

    So shiny happy people



    Will play much better than Coffee is for Closers

     
    Last edited: May 30, 2020
  25. NickB

    NickB Aka MrAcidic VIP

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    Glengarry Glen Ross is a quality film...
     

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