Epik, We have a problem. Domain removed from account without permission.

[bmugford]

I am sure as many of you are aware I have had issues with Epik in the past, but decided to give them a chance when I saw a domain I wanted on Name Liquidate.

I purchased the domain PianoMoving.com on 7/20. It was transferred into my account then.
This was the only domain in my account.

It was in my WHOIS information.
I updated the nameservers.

When I just checked it is magically no longer in my account.
The nameservers were changed.
I received zero contact about the domain being moved.

I have all the receipts -

1.) The purchase/renewal from Epik.
2.) The Paypal charge.
3.) Email of when the domain was moved into my account @ Epik.
4.) Email when the nameservers were updated in early August @ Epik.

I don't see any indication that the domain was removed from my account.
On top of zero communication, there also appears to be nothing under "Outgoing Pushes" or "Task History".

I sent a DM to @Rob Monster about this earlier this morning, but have not received a response yet.

I was just notified I received a refund. I don't want a refund.

I want the domain I won, that was in my account, which I had full control over.
It was removed from my account without permission or even notification.

I do not find this acceptable in any way.

@Epik.com, you have some explaining to do.

Brad

 

[Future Sensors]

What a mess.

Absolutely. Fortunately, the new CEO has a technologist business mindset combined with a seasoned entrepreneurial spirit and tenacity for success.

 

[branding]

I find it rather amusing that Rob seems to be so upset that I posted this publicly.

Why shouldn't I? It is regarding my experience with Epik.
I posted it in the sake of transparency.

Rob likes to act like I just pick on Epik. It is just a copout for their own actions on this.

Go back and look at the Brent Oxley thread on NamePros, where GoDaddy locked his domains unfairly.
Even while I am a GoDaddy supporter, I pretty much lead the charge pushing back on the unfairness of that.

Brent largely doesn't share my politics or ideologies. I did not care.
What is right is right. What is fair is fair.

I brought the issue to the ICA, and a resolution was reached.

You know, if you don't want this type of issue to be brought to light then maybe you should have done better.

In fact, if this domain was removed from my account with notification and full explanation, I likely would have tried to handle it privately.

Unfortunately, it wasn't. It was taken from my account without explanation or notice. No refund was given until I randomly found it was missing.

Brad

I second your statement, what a mess.

From a PR perspective, there are so many options they could've picked to handle the situation.

Seems to be a recurring theme @epik

 

[DomainNature]

I think you should contact ICANN as others mentioned, see what they will say and report back.
We can then think if it's worth dealing with Epik registrar and Braden Pollock at all.

 

[bmugford]

I think you should contact ICANN as others mentioned, see what they will say and report back.
We can then think if it's worth dealing with Epik registrar and Braden Pollock at all.

I will likely file a complaint with ICANN as I am not satisfied with Epik's actions that lead to the unauthorized removal of the domain from my account, lack of notification, and lack of explanation.

I am also not satisfied with their combative attitude after the fact, when the entire thing was their fault.

Brad

 

[kor]

I don't think you can find a solution from the source where the problem came from. If it was an honest business, this type of disgrace would not have arisen from the very beginning.

In such cases, 3rd party authorities have to step in.

 

[carob]

I think there is an interesting issue here about what happens when you have two contracts to sell the same item - which comes first, which has priority, whether it is legal to create two contracts. Certainly you can't have two marriage contracts at the same time! And the escrow and Domainliquidate angles make it more interesting.

If you are selling something in instalments but also then accept an offer from someone else, does the instalment plan let you cancel it? Does the buyer on the instalment plan have ownership or rights before completing all payments? Does the payment plan or escrow contain a clause letting the seller or registrar take back the domain? Did ticking the box agreeing to sell via NameLiquidate pre-date the later contract to sell to an end-user?

With DomainLiquidate is the contract between registrant and buyer? Who was the registrant at the time Brad bought the domain? As far as ICANN are concerned, the owner is the registrant.

 

[Future Sensors]

As far as ICANN are concerned, the owner is the registrant.

Precisely this aspect has been vague with Epik in the past, because the company did change ownership very easily behind the scenes. WIPO thought Epik's role was highly dubious and believed that ICANN should delve into it.

 

[Braden Pollock]

It was the manual aspect of this transaction that caused the mishap. For various reasons, auction wins are reversed all the time. It’s annoying but, unfortunately, fairly common. The issue here isn’t so much the reversal (mistakes happen) but the failure to reach out to Brad with an explanation. Obviously, I can’t speak to this as I wasn’t involved but I assume (and hope) that Epik has addressed this internally.
At the end of the day, while annoying for all parties (my self included), luckily there was no damage done.

 

[tonyk2000]

@Braden Pollock do you have an idea who received sale proceeds after Brad purchased the domain for high 3 figures?

 

[Keith]

It was the manual aspect of this transaction that caused the mishap. For various reasons, auction wins are reversed all the time. It’s annoying but, unfortunately, fairly common. The issue here isn’t so much the reversal (mistakes happen) but the failure to reach out to Brad with an explanation. Obviously, I can’t speak to this as I wasn’t involved but I assume (and hope) that Epik has addressed this internally.
At the end of the day, while annoying for all parties (my self included), luckily there was no damage done.

The main issues I see are lack of transparency and removing a domain from an account after a month, again, a month! That’s not the norm for auction reversals.

Also, what if the domain sold for $50,000 at auction? Do you think @Epik.com would honor the $12k payment plan @Braden Pollock ?

 

[alcy]

wait minute sorry if missed long thread but would this domain still go back to prev owner if he had no sale lined up? or what if his sale came 5 months later.. this is just a bad looking gesture anyway we see her

 

[bmugford]

It was the manual aspect of this transaction that caused the mishap. For various reasons, auction wins are reversed all the time. It’s annoying but, unfortunately, fairly common. The issue here isn’t so much the reversal (mistakes happen) but the failure to reach out to Brad with an explanation. Obviously, I can’t speak to this as I wasn’t involved but I assume (and hope) that Epik has addressed this internally.
At the end of the day, while annoying for all parties (my self included), luckily there was no damage done.

Let's assume that Braden had no control over this domain, which I accept. That means the responsibility to renew the domain was either on Epik or the person on the payment plan.

This is not a case of an orphaned domain listing for sale that the owner no longer owns.

The only way this was allowed to happen was by sheer incompetence. It is my belief, that in a normal situation, the domain would be lost because the renewal was not paid on time. I don't think in a normal situation it would have been clawed back a month later.

This was sold via an "all sales are final" venue. All sales should be final.

Can anyone show even one other example of a Name Liquidate purchase being clawed back, after a month?
It not, it is pretty easy to infer some special treatment went on here.

It was only because Epik had access to remove the domain from my account that it was able to happen.
They provided no notification, explanation, or refund until I caught it later.

I also disagree that no damage was done.

Brad

 

[redemo]

I still don't understand two things. First, if you legally own the domain (whether you have access to it, or not, as is the case here) then why aren't you putting your energies into getting it back legally? If you don't legally own the domain then $500 seems like a fair resolution to losing the domain, imo. That's aside from all the back-and-forth, which just needs a simple apology and a short public statement of commitment to do better (put systems in place to not let it happen again), with no waffle, just something along the lines of we messed up and we're sorry. This would put all the customers reading this at ease that it won't happen again. Second, in this day and age of reviews, ratings and feedback I really don't understand the response from a customer service viewpoint. Somebody needs to get a P.R. professional in and dish out some training a.s.a.p. I'm not a P.R. professional, far from it, but making a customer feel valued and secure seems the least a company should be doing. Finally, adding religion into the mix is never a good idea, since in my opinion, your relationship with your god should be a personal one, and never used as part of an argument.

 

[lambo.com]

It was the manual aspect of this transaction that caused the mishap. For various reasons, auction wins are reversed all the time. It’s annoying but, unfortunately, fairly common. The issue here isn’t so much the reversal (mistakes happen) but the failure to reach out to Brad with an explanation. Obviously, I can’t speak to this as I wasn’t involved but I assume (and hope) that Epik has addressed this internally.
At the end of the day, while annoying for all parties (my self included), luckily there was no damage done.

Interesting you diminish someone stripped title of a domain to 'mistakes happen' and cite your own annoyance concluding with a 'no damage done' summons attempt.

 

[bmugford]

I still don't understand two things. First, if you legally own the domain (whether you have access to it, or not, as is the case here) then why aren't you putting your energies into getting it back legally? If you don't legally own the domain then $500 seems like a fair resolution to losing the domain, imo. That's aside from all the back-and-forth, which just needs a simple apology and a short public statement of commitment to do better (put systems in place to not let it happen again), with no waffle, just something along the lines of we messed up and we're sorry. This would put all the customers reading this at ease that it won't happen again. Second, in this day and age of reviews, ratings and feedback I really don't understand the response from a customer service viewpoint. Somebody needs to get a P.R. professional in and dish out some training a.s.a.p. I'm not a P.R. professional, far from it, but making a customer feel valued and secure seems the least a company should be doing. Finally, adding religion into the mix is never a good idea, since in my opinion, your relationship with your god should be a personal one, and never used as part of an argument.

I purchased the domain via an "all sales are final" venue. It was transferred to my account.
It was in my WHOIS information.

I was the legal registrant, for a month. The legal registrant is the domain owner.

I am not interested in any passive-aggressive settlement offer that includes me being accused of making "defamatory" statements and acting in "bad faith". That offer is actually what is bad faith.

Brad

 

[redemo]

I purchased the domain via an "all sales are final" venue. It was transferred to my account.
It was in my WHOIS information.

I was the legal registrant, for a month. The legal registrant is the domain owner.

I am not interested in any passive-aggressive settlement offer that includes me being accused of making "defamatory" statements and acting in "bad faith". That offer is actually what is bad faith.

Brad

I have used companies in the past who gave me poor customer service and I simply left. But, with greatest respect mate, you haven't answered my question do you currently legally own the domain name? It's very important that you are clear about where you stand legally. I would be fighting to get my domain back. That would be the best message you could send to everyone, that domain names can't simply be taken out of people's accounts. Big companies rarely expect this. If you're not going to fight for your domain name, what exactly do you want mate?

 

[Future Sensors]

One question regarding ownership that has not been answered by @Braden Pollock yet, is whether the LTO installments for PianoMoving.com have been paid in full by Rigoberto Guillen.

Braden, appreciate it if you don't skip this important question.

 

[bmugford]

I have used companies in the past who gave me poor customer service and I simply left. But, with greatest respect mate, you haven't answered my question do you currently legally own the domain name?

The entire premise of this thread is that Epik removed the domain from my account without authorization and transferred ownership to another party.

I am no longer the registrant as the domain was taken from my account without permission, after a month.

I am still deciding on what course of action I want to take.

I will likely start with an ICANN complaint though, so I can receive a formal response about what actually happened.

Brad

 

[Keith]

I purchased the domain via an "all sales are final" venue. It was transferred to my account.
It was in my WHOIS information.

I was the legal registrant, for a month. The legal registrant is the domain owner.

I am not interested in any passive-aggressive settlement offer that includes me being accused of making "defamatory" statements and acting in "bad faith". That offer is actually what is bad faith.

Brad

Epik should refund the $12k to the current owner and move the domain to Brad. That’s my opinion.

All registrars should have strict rules to adhere to. They should never be able to yank a domain from a customer account because it’s not the registrars property!

I’d sue just to prove a point.

 

[Future Sensors]

Epik should refund the $12k to the current owner

Thanks to the mess, we're still figuring out who the current owner may be.

 

[bmugford]

Epik should refund the $12k to the current owner and move the domain to Brad. That’s my opinion.

All registrars should have strict rules to adhere to. They should never be able to yank a domain from a customer account because it’s not the registrars property!

Yes, any "error" or "mistake" seems to involve the lack of renewal of the domain. The lack of renewal is the incompetence of whatever party was responsible for it.

The domain was legitimately purchased, transferred, and owned for a month.

I don't think the average person would have been allowed to claw back the domain, a month later.

Brad

 

[Keith]

Yes, any "error" or "mistake" seems to involve the lack of renewal of the domain. The lack of renewal is the incompetence of whatever party was responsible for it.

The domain was legitimately purchased, transferred, and owned for a month.

I don't think the average person would have been allowed to claw back the domain, a month later.

Brad

If escrow.com failed to renew on a payment plan it would have to reverse all payments. Epik has overstepped its bounds here and that shouldn’t be allowed.

@Rob Monster can you tell us why you feel you have the right to invade customer accounts to steal domains? Escrow.com, which offers a similar service, couldn’t do that…

We’ve already seen you not follow your own company rules for expired, backordered domains. Reason you gave then - special rules for 1% of customers. I guess Braden is the 1% here?

 

[bmugford]

If escrow.com failed to renew on a payment plan it would have to reverse all payments. Epik has overstepped its bounds here and that shouldn’t be allowed.

I agree, and they were only able to do it because they had access to do it. They did it without explanation or notice.

Whatever happened regarding the renewal is not my problem. Someone dropped the ball, and they need to take responsibility.

I purchased the domain legitimately. End of story.

Now I am the one being accused of acting in bad faith by @Rob Monster. It is bizarro world.

Brad

 

[bmugford]

@Rob Monster can you tell us why you feel you have the right to invade customer accounts to steal domains? Escrow.com, which offers a similar service, couldn’t do that…

Removing the domain is an issue, as is no notification or explanation for it.
I can also find no record of the domain moving in my account.

Epik deserves no credit for giving a refund, after I am the one who caught the domain missing a couple weeks later.

When was I ever going to get notified or refunded otherwise?

Brad

 

[Future Sensors]

Epik deserves no credit for giving a refund, after I am the one who caught the domain missing a couple weeks later.

You were actually pretty clear in your first posting, saying:

"I was just notified I received a refund. I don't want a refund."