Epik, We have a problem. Domain removed from account without permission.

[bmugford]

I am sure as many of you are aware I have had issues with Epik in the past, but decided to give them a chance when I saw a domain I wanted on Name Liquidate.

I purchased the domain PianoMoving.com on 7/20. It was transferred into my account then.
This was the only domain in my account.

It was in my WHOIS information.
I updated the nameservers.

When I just checked it is magically no longer in my account.
The nameservers were changed.
I received zero contact about the domain being moved.

I have all the receipts -

1.) The purchase/renewal from Epik.
2.) The Paypal charge.
3.) Email of when the domain was moved into my account @ Epik.
4.) Email when the nameservers were updated in early August @ Epik.

I don't see any indication that the domain was removed from my account.
On top of zero communication, there also appears to be nothing under "Outgoing Pushes" or "Task History".

I sent a DM to @Rob Monster about this earlier this morning, but have not received a response yet.

I was just notified I received a refund. I don't want a refund.

I want the domain I won, that was in my account, which I had full control over.
It was removed from my account without permission or even notification.

I do not find this acceptable in any way.

@Epik.com, you have some explaining to do.

Brad

 

[bmugford]

I have no words ...

I would think this would be a good opportunity for a new CEO to start out on the right foot with the domain investment community, but what do I know.

Brad

 

[tonyk2000]

Something from the history... Good old times, snapnames not yet owned by netsol, pre-release domains are delivered directly with their respective registrars (so, no 60 days locks). Won something with little or no bidding, paid just 2 figures. Got the domain. Since there were no locks, transferred away immediately. To my surprise, gaining registrar (my preferred registrar) received the domain renewed for extra 5 years. Tried to figure out who renewed it, where and why - and it appeared that the domain was renewed by snapnames partner registrar (!) after I received it but before I transferred it away. OK, what can I do? Nothing, let it be so.

In a week or two, received an inquiry - Hello Tony, my name is John Doe, I am with snapnames brokerage and we have a buyer for <domain in question>. OK, we agreed on price (satisfactory enduser aftermarket price for this domain at that time). Deal.

What really happened: Snapnames partner registrar did not renew the domain (even though they were paid by the previous user) and sold it as expired instead. They applied the renewal to this domain @ my account, and I transferred the domain away. What a mess. To resolve the issue, Snapnames and their partner registrar simply purchased the domain back from me, and paid honest aftermarket price...

I wrote all this because piano moving situation is somewhat similar. Instead of reversing the transaction, or discussing the compensation, or applying $500 credit, another option for Epik was to simply purchase the domain from Brad. So, what prevented them from making an offer at least? Must be the fact that the domain was still with Epik...

 

[jberryhill]

The entire reason I even noticed the domain missing was because I logged into my account to see if the escrow hold was up so I could transfer it out.

Yep, that's kind of amazing. Normally, one would expect to receive a notice to that effect.

What I would suspect here is that the sales fulfillment engine simply trundled along and transferred the purchased name without really having a check on whether the seller and registrant were identical.

I've seen this sort of thing, or close to it, on other platforms. Someone will buy a domain name that is listed in multiple marketplaces. For whatever reason, a zombie sale listing will continue at the registrar marketplace. The name is purchased and the registrar proceeds to transfer the domain name.

There is some indication this domain name was subject to special handling, and it could simply be that the underlying software simply was not built to support this particular case. So the sale simply proceeded without notice to you.

3.5. Reserved
3.6. Reserved
3.7.5.5 Reserved
3.7.5.6 Reserved

It is unusual to have anything "reserved" in public terms, but this is what we see. What if any of the above "reserved" actually says: "NameLiquidate sales by Braden Pollock to Brad Mugford can be reversed anytime"?

That doesn't mean there are 'secret terms'. Usually things like that happen because the terms have been revised. But, because there are numbered paragraphs, they'd have to change all their form emails etc. if they re-numbered the agreement every time a section was deleted, moved, or what have you. It's sort of like 'this page intentionally left blank' in some documents to signify a page that is intentionally blank. You also see this kind of thing in statutes which have been amended to eliminate sections.

I think the big question here is whether or not a registrar can pluck a domain out of an account based on their own findings?

Yep. Happens all of the time when, for example, everyone concludes that a domain name was stolen. That's the kind of thing @bhartzer does all of the time - work with registrars to resolve stolen name claims.

Oh, one other takeaway from all of this is also pretty basic:

IF YOU ENTER INTO AN N YEAR LEASE OR LEASE/PURCHASE ON A DOMAIN NAME - RENEW IT OUT FOR THOSE N YEARS WHEN YOU MAKE THE DEAL.

This whole sorry episode appears to have arisen from the group efforts of several idiots who were, one way or another, party to a time-structured agreement of some kind.

For example, I frequently hold names in escrow for parties who are carrying out a transaction. If it is, say, a five year lease-to-purchase agreement or something along those lines, then even if there is an early payment option I will typically require SOMEONE to pay five years worth or registration on that name before I take it into escrow.

Relying on "somebody" to pay annual renewals on a domain name that might be in escrow for N years is just asking for this sort of trouble.

 

[bmugford]

Update:
I received the domain back into my account really early this morning.
We had reached out to @Rob Monster and he personally took care of it.

@bmugford I hope you can email Rob, and get your situation sorted out. It's both scary and inconvenient when premium domains are missing from your account. I think we can all agree that we love our prized domains, and there's an element of trust and integrity involved when we do business with others.

Why was the domain removed from your account in the first place?

When domains just start being removed without notification until the owner notices, that is obviously a major issue.

If you own a portfolio of any size it would be very easy to not even notice a domain missing.

I have owned thousands of domains and dealt with probably close to 100 registrars. Any time a domain has left my account at any other registrar I have received notice. I have never seen this issue at any other registrar.

Brad

 

[Lox]

RM, No one likes firing an employee but … inside job is a no no.

 

[bmugford]

In any case, something is definitely wrong and hopefully @bhartzer will find a solution. Which would not be easy since a) the domain is now owned by unrelated 3rd party AND b) discussing a settlement should almost definitely require this thread be removed by Brad, which is impossible as per NP rules.

If Epik and/or Braden made a good faith effort to resolve this, I would be more than happy to mention that.

All I have seen so far is a lack of response from the parties involved, and one response that really addresses none of the serious issues at play.

Brad

 

[NickB]

It stinks - blatant case of someone selling the domain after no longer owning it and having friends in the right places.......

Unless proof is provided showing otherwise that's what I'm going with.....Always like to be shown I'm wrong though........

 

[bmugford]

Hi


i feel for you Brad and hope it gets resolved to your satisfaction.

however, this "system error" explanation is an issue,
why?
because this means that it, the system, is/was acting independently, like some AI without oversight.

not throwing rocks, but is this the same system that had the data breach?

if a domain can be entered in an auction marketplace accidentally and then be removed from a buyers account after purchase,
then that is a serious problem with the registrar and that marketplace, including the security of each users domain names, if/when a system error could initiate that process.

imo....

Again, this is the only domain I own there.

What are the odds that only this one single domain is effected by whatever the "error" is? That really seems to stretch credulity.

Brad

 

[Digital Nomad]

This comes as no surprise to me from a company (Epik) who neglected the security and privacy of their clients which came to light after the hack, that is why I have zero domains there. I hope this gets resolved for you Brad, not a good look for Epik, again...

 

[DigiNames]

I am sorry, but when the issue involves the unauthorized transfer of my relatively premium domain, I am not willing to just wait around.

A $12,000 domain name is a premium domain name period. It seems to me like someone owes you $11000+ for selling your domain and pocketing the profits.

 

[Braden Pollock]

I am sure as many of you are aware I have had issues with Epik in the past, but decided to give them a chance when I saw a domain I wanted on Name Liquidate.

I purchased the domain PianoMoving.com on 7/20. It was transferred into my account then.
This was the only domain in my account.

It was in my WHOIS information.
I updated the nameservers.

When I just checked it is magically no longer in my account.
The nameservers were changed.
I received zero contact about the domain being moved.

I have all the receipts -

1.) The purchase/renewal from Epik.
2.) The Paypal charge.
3.) Email of when the domain was moved into my account @ Epik.
4.) Email when the nameservers were updated in early August @ Epik.

I don't see any indication that the domain was removed from my account.
On top of zero communication, there also appears to be nothing under "Outgoing Pushes" or "Task History".

I sent a DM to @Rob Monster about this earlier this morning, but have not received a response yet.

I was just notified I received a refund. I don't want a refund.

I want the domain I won, that was in my account, which I had full control over.
It was removed from my account without permission or even notification.

I do not find this acceptable in any way.

@Epik.com, you have some explaining to do.

Brad

@Rob Monster
@Braden Pollock

I have no idea what went on here, but the fact I purchased this domain via Name Liquidate on 7/20 and it was removed from my account much later is not in dispute.

You really need to figure out what happened here, because it sure doesn't look too good that a domain is removed and transferred from my account without authorization after it is "sold" to another party.

How was it removed from my account?
Why was it removed from my account?
Why was there no notification?
Why is there no record of it?

I will reserve judgement, but at this point it seems like something stinks to high heaven.

Brad

What a mess.
I sold this name back in May so it was no longer in my acct nor in my control.

 

[bmugford]

I had a related issue happen with GoDaddy, within the past couple of years. I strangely got a refund for a closeout domain I had bought almost a year earlier. But I don't remember if the domain was actually in my account or not.

I spent a few minutes a bit earlier today trying to find it in emails, but it's like trying to find a needle in a haystack.

I just figure "mistakes will happen". Of course, in my case, it was less than $20 involved, but it was still strange.

I own thousand of domains at GoDaddy. I have purchased who knows how many over the years there and never once had a domain removed from my account.

Having a domain renewed before it is assigned to your account, and having it forcefully removed from your account without permission, a month later, are two very different things.

Especially when the registrar itself is likely responsible for the renewal.

Brad

 

[bmugford]

I guess the question is: what did bmugford know at the time when he purchased the domain? As an investor why would he choose to spend nearly 1k on a domain that is 11 letters long?

That is an odd comment. Anyone who did the bare minimum of research would know this is a valuable domain.
If you don't see the clear value in this domain, that is more of a reflection on your ability to value domains.

Piano Moving is an excellent lead generation term, and single leads can brings hundreds or potential thousands of dollars for a difficult move of a high value piano. This is a specific moving niche, not some random domain.

People might say, oh because it's a good name, etc. Yeah but there are tons of such names available for less than 1k if you are an investor. "pianomovers" for example would be also a similar name of equal quality perhaps.

Name one domain available for that price with similar metrics.

Both PianoMover.com and PianoMovers.com are owned by end users. That just illustrates the value of the term that much more.

Early in the thread you mentioned the purchase of this particular domain was based on the prior selling price of this exact domain.

I didn't even know about the $12K sale until it was posted in this thread. Go ahead and ask @Braden Pollock about that. How could I possibly know about a sale that was reported on 8/18 when I bought the domain around a month earlier?

You are talking nonsense with this post.

Brad

 

[Digital Nomad]

Seems like Epik think this issue is 'done and dusted'.

They couldn't be more wrong. Who on earth will trust them with their domains now.

They need to sort this out and make things right.

People trust them even after the hack apparently, there are always people who don't read the news or these forum posts, and some are naive and still trust after all, but later get burnt. And then they wonder how. Never trust companies who do not take all their clients serious, if they screw people once, they will do it again, because they know people will always give them a second chance or third, but I will never be Epik's client, lesson learnt from others.

 

[alistair80]

Exact same thing happening with me today...Domain out of my account and listed on Epik under "Make offer"....I paid over 8k for the domain...
Something fishy is going on...

 

[carob]

In any case, something is changing @ epik and I am wondering what is really happening. At the same time - new CEO, folks complaining about not being paid for their Epik sales in other NP thread, pianomoving case is 19 pages already, and now this...

Let's not forget there was a giant hack at Epik preceded by years of vulnerability - https://www.namepros.com/threads/epik-had-a-major-breach.1252094/ and Epik probably still is the swiss cheese of domains.

Who can say hackers are not running, or ruining, the show there now?

Why is Rob Monster exiting as CEO? Is that to not go down with a sinking ship?

 

[bmugford]

I would call a lawyer.

We will see what happens. Again, I have all the receipts.

There is absolutely no doubt that -

1.) I paid for the domain.
2.) The domain was transferred to my account.
3.) The domain was in my information.
4.) I updated the nameservers.
5.) I had possession until at least some time recently this month.
6.) The domain was removed from my account and now belongs to another party.
7.) I did not give permission for that.
8.) I was not notified of it.
9.) I can find no record in my account referencing the move.

Brad

 

[bmugford]

From what I understand, this Braden guy listed domain at DN liquidate, he forgot to remove the for sale listing, the domain arrived to you, he sold the domain, Braden contact his inside friends at Epik "hey bro I just sold my domain, can ya do me a favor push it to the new owner" that's it sale done.
It seems that Braden Polock has good friends at Epik.
I think he should pay you for what he sold the domain, minus some percentages.
IMO

I don't really have any idea what went on between Epik and Braden, a month after I had legitimate ownership of the domain.

What I do know is that whatever happened would not have been possible without someone at Epik removing the domain from my account without permission.

When it was removed there was no notification given. There is no record of it happening.
There was also no refund given then. Why?

Brad

 

[Future Sensors]

An important advantage of this whole NameLiquidate service, as mentioned by both @DanSanchez and @Rob Monster on this forum, would be that the "buyer would get a clear title".

We now roughly know what that means.

 

[branding]

Greetings from NamesCon in Austin.

As many of you know, we have had an eventful week here, starting with a #BeEpik event on Wednesday where we hosted a group of Epik clients and allies. This video captures the spirit of that event:

Earlier today, we also shared the news that I have stepped down as CEO, making room for Brian Royce who I believe will serve the company very well.

Brian is a technologist first but deeply versed in technology, operations, finance, legal and compliance. He is big on keeping "trains running on time" through technology and process.

As for this incident with Brad, it is truly unfortunate. There was a domain that Braden was doing as an escrow transaction with a payment plan with zero commission. It was a bit of an exotic deal.

To make a long story short, the domain expired during the payment plan and was routed through our liquidation marketplace. It was then re-directed by Brad.

In short, we screwed up. We really regret this outcome. Although we did refund Brad, the communication and process was far from Epik.

As many folks here know, for much of the last 11 years I have been extremely hands-on as a CEO. I love working directly with customers. Many domainers have my personal cell phone, Skype, Telegram, etc.

At some point, my accessible personal approach ceases to scale. We are there. Earlier in the week, we were actively considering making room for Brian Royce to come into the CEO seat.

On Wednesday, on the occasion of our #BeEpik event, we had 2 NamePros members point out our shortcomings. The first was Brad. The second was Dirk.

Show attachment 222342

Perhaps for reasons of lingering pride, I was still debating whether to vacate the CEO slot. Be that as it may, ultimately, I believe this is the guiding word:

Show attachment 222341

I am thankful for the opportunity to have worked closely with so many folks in the industry for the last 11 years. I am excited about the skills that Brian Royce is bringing into the CEO role.

I will continue as Chairman and majority shareholder, but will now be able to devote more time to a number of passion projects including Kingdom Ventures, Orphans.com and Lifeverse.

Thanks in advance for welcoming Brian. Best wishes for a great (holiday) weekend to all!

As a majority shareholder, you may ask your newly appointed CEO what the fuck is going on and report back here.

Love the update, but unrelated to this thread.

 

[bmugford]

When the ex CEO gets on a thread and admits Epik screwed up on every level in this situation but says his compassion ends when people leave Epik bad reviews it is unethical and disingenuous.

You don’t make things right because you like the person you have harmed’s response to it. You do it because YOU SCREWED UP.

So much for Christian values and being domainer friendly. Those tenants only seem to apply if you are good friends of RM.

It appears Epik takes limited responsibility for their "mistake", certainly not enough to try to make it right in some way.

You have a post where about 10% is related to the issue at hand, an issue that has spawned a thread with almost 200 posts and 5,000+ views. The other 90% is related to irrelevant self-promotion.

At this point it seems like the real "mistake" is me giving Epik a chance, and to have any expectations that they would do the right thing to fix THEIR "mistake".

Brad

 

[wwwweb]

According to namescon website, previous registrant is one of the speakers, so, indeed, he must be extremely busy now. Hope he will show up later and enlighten us what happened and how.

Show attachment 222224

He was previously on the board of directors at Epik, his mother in law is famed celeb attorney Gloria Allred
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloria_Allred

 

[Keith]

@Braden Pollock isn’t a top domainer, despite news. However, he’s gained some notoriety and as Rob admitted, he’s an investor in @epik

@Braden Pollock said auctions can be reversed which is a bullshit statement. If he can show us a reversal after a month let’s see it.

Brad, we may want to start a fund for you to sue @epik because this is very wrong and registrars can’t act as gods over our property. I’ll be the first to contribute.

 

[Start]

epik double dipped by sending it to auction. Why? To get a higher price than $12k.

No, it seems that you apparently don't use NameLiquidate.

At NL, it's just a reverse auction... the price starts at $998 and gradually goes down. Therefore, the most a domain can sell for on there is only $998.

So there's no point sending a $12k sale domain there, when it will sell for at most $998.

This was clearly just a mistake, not some conspiracy to get more profit.


From what I can see from the info we've heard, it actually would have been in Epik's financial interest to let the domain sell for $998 at NL, because I think they would then get the profit.

But I think returning it to the payment plan buyer is the fairest thing to do. The problem is just that they took a few weeks and were slow to communicate, but the end result would have been the same.

 

[HotKey]

This makes zero sense. I’m the one that sold the domain. While the domain was in escrow, during the payment plan, it accidentally expired. Expired names at Epik automatically go to NL. There was no double dipping.

How does a domain "accidentally expire"? This is not a preclude to allowing the rules to be circumvented.

As far as I can tell, and I'm only a blue-collar bushwhacker, this domain withdrawal from a registrants account is completely illegitimate and thus far the excuses offered are just that. Brad is the legitimate owner of the domain purchased via legitimate means and as per NL FAQ:

Do I need to unlock my domains before listing at NameLiquidate?
Yes. The domains must be unlocked before submission.

Do I need to provide authorization codes at the time of listing on NameLiquidate?
Yes. Your domains must be unlocked and listed with a valid authorization (transfer) code.

It's a manual process done by the current registrant. Which means this domain was entered into NL physically and with full awareness of the actions set forth.

Further enlightenment on why this is being condoned by Epik upper management would be greatly appreciated because this really puts into question the security of any domain, really, in one's account there.

The only mistake I can see here is the unauthorized removal of an owner's domain name, and should be rectified. Anything else is an excuse for shameful accordance to some other mystifying rationale that boils down to an overreach by a registrar to a registrants asset.

If a registrant can't maintain the amount of pies they have fingers set into, meaning, have control over the names you input into NL or a passive escrow agreement or whatever, there is absolutely no one else that should have to pay the price for that kind of irresponsibility.