Epik, We have a problem. Domain removed from account without permission.

[bmugford]

I am sure as many of you are aware I have had issues with Epik in the past, but decided to give them a chance when I saw a domain I wanted on Name Liquidate.

I purchased the domain PianoMoving.com on 7/20. It was transferred into my account then.
This was the only domain in my account.

It was in my WHOIS information.
I updated the nameservers.

When I just checked it is magically no longer in my account.
The nameservers were changed.
I received zero contact about the domain being moved.

I have all the receipts -

1.) The purchase/renewal from Epik.
2.) The Paypal charge.
3.) Email of when the domain was moved into my account @ Epik.
4.) Email when the nameservers were updated in early August @ Epik.

I don't see any indication that the domain was removed from my account.
On top of zero communication, there also appears to be nothing under "Outgoing Pushes" or "Task History".

I sent a DM to @Rob Monster about this earlier this morning, but have not received a response yet.

I was just notified I received a refund. I don't want a refund.

I want the domain I won, that was in my account, which I had full control over.
It was removed from my account without permission or even notification.

I do not find this acceptable in any way.

@Epik.com, you have some explaining to do.

Brad

 

[redemo]

I still don't understand two things. First, if you legally own the domain (whether you have access to it, or not, as is the case here) then why aren't you putting your energies into getting it back legally? If you don't legally own the domain then $500 seems like a fair resolution to losing the domain, imo. That's aside from all the back-and-forth, which just needs a simple apology and a short public statement of commitment to do better (put systems in place to not let it happen again), with no waffle, just something along the lines of we messed up and we're sorry. This would put all the customers reading this at ease that it won't happen again. Second, in this day and age of reviews, ratings and feedback I really don't understand the response from a customer service viewpoint. Somebody needs to get a P.R. professional in and dish out some training a.s.a.p. I'm not a P.R. professional, far from it, but making a customer feel valued and secure seems the least a company should be doing. Finally, adding religion into the mix is never a good idea, since in my opinion, your relationship with your god should be a personal one, and never used as part of an argument.

 

[asxforum]

“Everything that needs to be said has already been said"​

 

[DN Playbook]

What is the address or URL of the Epik-forum ? I didn't know theres is one. PLease PM me somebody with the URL.
Thanks in advance.

It's that forum that used to be popular. It is not that active today. My oh my, you would think that epik would be right on top of this here, but it's crickets. Either they don't give a F***k or they don't have a clue.

Namepros doesn’t allow it to be linked here, they’re scared.

Google dnf domain forum

I can see why Np would not want competing forums to be promoted on their forum. It is common sense. But in any case, that forum has very minimum activity. Likely mostly from their own outsourced staff.

 

[alcy]

It was not an auction.

It is a listing where the seller has to opt-in, where the price drops as time goes on until it is sold, reaches the minimum, or reaches the reserve set by the owner.

It was up there for at least a period of time before someone pulled the trigger, since it dropped around $100 from the start.

Again, this domain sold for around the same price in the recent past. It is not some unreasonable price that it sold for -

990 USD

2020-07-20

Brad

oh yea I fforgot it's a dropping bin... same crap names tho for most part..I dont bother to look... I guess they take what a week to.drop by 100... good name...

 

[asxforum]

This is my business its a open forum . You have all the legal options at hand submit a complaint with ICANN .

“Everything that needs to be said has already been said"​

 

[redemo]

As a good faith gesture, I did just now go ahead and add $500 in Epik credit to your account.

To be honest, aside from the prolonged silence and then unapologetic self-promotion, $ 500 is a reasonable settlement. I don't know the terms you agreed to, but if they haven't broken any rules then it's purely a customer service issue. In which case $ 500 seems reasonable. If, on the other hand, they have broken some rules then the most logical recourse is to contact the registry or I.C.A.N.N. I've said my piece, not having any further involvement with this thread. Come on guys, it's the weekend!

 

[bhartzer]

Also they are not renewing domains which were paid for renewal.
First they steal money, and steal domain, and totally ignore, unless you check things,
and send an angry message, and maybe they will fix part of things.

If you have specifics about stolen domain names, let me know and that will be addressed ASAP. I have no reports of stolen domain names from Epik.

I don't have any information about renewals that I can provide, but will pass that information on to the proper people who handle that so it's properly addressed.

 

[Pairadice]

I have an alternate take just for fun since it appears the thread is getting close to resolved, as there is no remedy, etc. I will probably get blasted for posting this.

I guess the question is: what did bmugford know at the time when he purchased the domain? As an investor why would he choose to spend nearly 1k on a domain that is 11 letters long?

People might say, oh because it's a good name, etc. Yeah but there are tons of such names available for less than 1k if you are an investor. "pianomovers" for example would be also a similar name of equal quality perhaps.

Early in the thread you mentioned the purchase of this particular domain was based on the prior selling price of this exact domain.

Since the sale had taken place in May, you might have known about it from when it was announced on twitter or from other sources such as namebio.

you might have thought it was just expired due to the purchaser's negligence in renewing said domain and the goal was to purchase the domain for 995 and then try to sell it back to them for another $12k or higher due to their stupidity in not renewing the domain.

That would explain why, when scanning names that had recently sold for 5 figures and then you noticed it was recently listed on nameliquidate, which could only be seen as a major error on the purchaser's part in letting the domain expire, you decided to purchase immediately for $995 or something instead of doing what most people would do, and wait for the price to go down to $150 or something and then buy it.

If so - then you were sort of taking advatage of a glitch in epik's system in sending the names immediately to nameliquidate upon expiry - to get the domain - which is really smart!

One could actually farm the names at that price level in the effort to obtain good names immediately that have mistakenly been left to expire.

then later it turned out it was not expired due to the purchaser's negligence but due to epik's negligence while on a manual payment plan. That explanation cannot be made-up because braden confirmed the domain was on a payment plan.

I guess the response is: if you are going to try to do things that are really smart and sneaky, involving capitalizing on a system where a registrar places all names up for sale (BIN) automatically upon expiration, then you have to realize sometimes these ideas will work and sometimes they are not going to work and the domain could be clawed back.

Should you lash out at epik over this, given the foregoing? well clearly it was a mistake and attempted capitalization on that mistake from the get-go and stuff so I don't know.

if you get them in trouble and they have to end nameliquidate as a result, then you won't be able to farm for these expiration mistakes in the future... since the other sites have an "auction" system.

 

[Daniel Owens]

Is Epik amazing?

 

[Pairadice]

you decided to purchase immediately for $995 or something instead of doing what most people would do, and wait for the price to go down to $150 or something and then buy it.

The name is decent and stuff but don't you think it was sort of strange to "jump" at this name at $995.. it's not THAT good of a name.. if you are seeing it 100% as a "brandable" registered in only 12 extensions currently.

also you are the one who has stated numerous times that the cost of domains is prohibitive given their sell-thru rate.

why not wait for it to go down to $150? Did you really think someone else would want this name that badly that you couldn't wait?

I have some stuff I would love to show you if you are buying similar names for $995. nothing involving pianos or anything but, well let me check if I have a nice piano domain . actually I do have one, I might be willing to sell it for $995. currently it's listed for $3k retail.

I am not sure if I believe that you chose this name out of thousands and thousands and spent that much on it as a brandable!

 

[alcy]

I just submitted a complaint with ICANN. I am not sure what they will, or even can do.

In summary -

The domain pianomoving.com was removed from my account by Epik.com a month after I became the owner.
It was moved to the current registrant without authorization, notification, explanation, or refund at the time.

An unrequested refund was only provided, without explanation, when I discovered the issue much later.

What was going to happen if I did not notice this? Was Epik ever going to give me notice, explanation, or a refund?

I also pointed to the UDRP panel's ruling in the VOCL.com dispute.

In that case, Epik Inc. had been determined by the panel to have inherent conflicts of interest, provided materially inaccurate information and disclosures regarding domain ownership, and engaged in misconduct.

The panel also calls into question the respondent's credibility and goes on to find serial misrepresentations by the respondent.

Please refer to the full findings here -mains/search/text.jsp?case=D2021-1050[/URL]

I believe this is relevant because it is directly related to the credibility of the registrar itself.

I believe what Epik says should be not taken at face value. What actually happened needs to be investigated further.

I don’t think they should be given the benefit of the doubt, because of their past behavior.

When you factor in the timeline and chain of events, I think it is reasonable to come to the conclusion that Epik acted in bad faith by removing the domain without authorization, notification, explanation, of a refund at the time.

Brad

I thought epik gave u refund without asking or chasing after it?

 

[redemo]

@bmugford Being completely neutral mate, everyone makes mistakes. It's human nature. What exactly do you want them to do that would satisfy you?

 

[redemo]

Did you legally own the domain name at the time it was taken from your account without your permission? Are you 100% sure of your answer, having checked their T.O.S? @bmugford

 

[Rob Monster]

Greetings from NamesCon in Austin.

As many of you know, we have had an eventful week here, starting with a #BeEpik event on Wednesday where we hosted a group of Epik clients and allies. This video captures the spirit of that event:

Earlier today, we also shared the news that I have stepped down as CEO, making room for Brian Royce who I believe will serve the company very well.

Brian is a technologist first but deeply versed in technology, operations, finance, legal and compliance. He is big on keeping "trains running on time" through technology and process.

As for this incident with Brad, it is truly unfortunate. There was a domain that Braden was doing as an escrow transaction with a payment plan with zero commission. It was a bit of an exotic deal.

To make a long story short, the domain expired during the payment plan and was routed through our liquidation marketplace. It was then re-directed by Brad.

In short, we screwed up. We really regret this outcome. Although we did refund Brad, the communication and process was far from Epik.

As many folks here know, for much of the last 11 years I have been extremely hands-on as a CEO. I love working directly with customers. Many domainers have my personal cell phone, Skype, Telegram, etc.

At some point, my accessible personal approach ceases to scale. We are there. Earlier in the week, we were actively considering making room for Brian Royce to come into the CEO seat.

On Wednesday, on the occasion of our #BeEpik event, we had 2 NamePros members point out our shortcomings. The first was Brad. The second was Dirk.

Perhaps for reasons of lingering pride, I was still debating whether to vacate the CEO slot. Be that as it may, ultimately, I believe this is the guiding word:

I am thankful for the opportunity to have worked closely with so many folks in the industry for the last 11 years. I am excited about the skills that Brian Royce is bringing into the CEO role.

I will continue as Chairman and majority shareholder, but will now be able to devote more time to a number of passion projects including Kingdom Ventures, Orphans.com and Lifeverse.

Thanks in advance for welcoming Brian. Best wishes for a great (holiday) weekend to all!

 

[Rob Monster]

@Rob Monster Could you tell more about this, especially why this deal was exotic and without commission?

Normally, selling with payment plans is done like this:

https://www.epik.com/support/epik-lease-rental-purchase-plans-guide/

It is a very robust self-service product that accommodates all payment methods. It charges a standard 9% fee on collected funds and it works like an absolute champ for buyer and seller.

For escrow, we have had historically a practice where sellers whose domain is on Epik with a known customer, and where the buyer is settling via wire transfer, we can waive the escrow commission.

The commission-free escrow was never intended for ongoing payment plans. However, because Braden is a shareholder and a former director, the escrow team did a manual work-around.

The oversight was doing this for a domain that was expiring within the window of the extended payment plan. Smart software would not make that error, but a manual work-around introduced an unforeseen risk.

The remedy was improperly handed. Once discovered it was fully remedied and now also fairly compensated.

 

[Rob Monster]

It appears Epik takes limited responsibility for their "mistake", certainly not enough to try to make it right in some way.

You have a post where about 10% is related to the issue at hand, an issue that has spawned a thread with almost 200 posts and 5,000+ views. The other 90% is related to irrelevant self-promotion.

At this point it seems like the real "mistake" is me giving Epik a chance, and to have any expectations that they would do the right thing to fix THEIR "mistake".

Brad

Thanks Brad.

As a good faith gesture, I did just now go ahead and add $500 in Epik credit to your account.

All,

As for why nobody from Epik engaged with Brad's thread earlier in the week, some context is needed:

The timing of Brad's public post plus general brigading of negative energy, was unnaturally coincident with our marketing event at NamesCon. While I acknowledge Epik's error, Brad's approach was believed as not in good faith and was arguably defamatory and weaponized. This is consistent with his general approach to Epik at NP.

If he had allowed us an opportunity to amicably resolve the matter without a bunch of fan-fare, I am sure we could have arranged for some compensation for his inconvenience. I have no issue with taking responsibility for failures. However, since Brad opted to grandstand instead, the options for compensation are pretty limited.

So, we invoked our very straight forward Terms of Service along with our home court jurisdiction in resolving the very matter. In the unlikely event of a civil action, there is ample Errors and Omissions insurance coverage which we have never used but is ample for a case. Brad would already have discerned that.

As for my earlier post, I do have a general policy of making lemons into lemonade. NamePros has been a lemon tree for a long time for Epik, starting all the way back to 2019 when a legendary lemon thread was created, and where we ended up having a whole lot of fun with endless banter among NP members.

So, keep smiling at the world because the world eventually smiles back. May God bless you all.