debate Environmental Thread does anyone care that Amazon Rain Forest is burning down to the ground

[oldtimer]

This is a total catastrophe and failure for the World and humanity at large. There are some things that surpass national boundaries and borders like Human Rights and certain Environmental issues that affect the whole Globe which surely should be of concern to all of us. Whether it’s the Oceans and Rivers that have been polluted or whether it’s our air and soil that have been poisoned, it all has something to do with human activity like the Global Warming and the Melting of the Ice Caps and Glaciers which is going to put many coastal Cities and Communities under water soon. IMO

Everyone’s opinions are welcomed, but keep your comments constructive, professional, and on topic. Personal attacks and belittling of others are not tolerated.

 

[Bob Hawkes]

Thoughts with all of those impacted by the fires.

While forest fires are a natural occurrence, and have always been with us even prior to modern times, it is also true that climate change has made the situation worse in many parts of the world. It is unfortunate that the world, that effectively worked together across national borders when the ozone layer was threatened, has not found similar universal cooperation for climate change.

Air quality here on the west coast of Canada is really bad, and looks like will continue to be so for a number of days. Sometimes the true toll off poor air quality is overlooked because it is spread over such a large area. People die, not just directly in the fires.

Bob

 

[Cal2]

As the fires on the West Coast are raging out of control it seems to me that the only solution to prevent these catastrophes from happening again and again in the future is to redesign the whole landscape of that region in order to eliminate the dry underbrush and vegetation that fuel these fires. Also to cut some of the trees down to make sure that there is adequate spacing between them in the denser areas.

This might sound like an impossible task to accomplish, but there doesn't seem to be any other choices now that the effects of the Climate Change are becoming more and more noticeable in our everyday lives.

IMO

Reads like you're throwing in the towel too soon as to what could be possible solutions, OT. You could try some serious creative thinking to determine if there really is only one viable way to deal with it. One place to start: https://www.amazon.com/Serious-Crea...50&sprefix=serious+creativity,aps,215&sr=8-2\

I'd join in with you on it, but already have projects that aren't getting finished as well as they should be.

 

[Cannuck]

Reads like you're throwing in the towel too soon as to what could be possible solutions, OT. You could try some serious creative thinking to determine if there really is only one viable way to deal with it. One place to start: https://www.amazon.com/Serious-Creativity-creative-pressure-action-ebook/dp/B00RKX0QBS/ref=sr_1_2?crid=3DK7G08B545MJ&dchild=1&keywords=serious+creativity+-+edward+de+bono&qid=1599930150&sprefix=serious+creativity,aps,215&sr=8-2\

I'd join in with you on it, but already have projects that aren't getting finished as well as they should be.

There are other solutions, but alot of it has to do with the mindset of forest management vs protection.

A good example is Finnish silviculture: https://forest.fi/article/silviculture/

 

[Cal2]

There are other solutions, but alot of it has to do with the mindset of forest management vs protection.

A good example is Finnish silviculture: https://forest.fi/article/silviculture/

One 'serious creativity' method is called 'designing ways forward while leaving a problem in place'. Whether that could be effective in this instance...

As for dealing with forest mindsets:
I was once dealing with a gov't forestry management official on forestry problem issues - in this instance it had to do with Dutch Elm Disease - and I brought up about concepts and started discussing how a change in concepts could bring about new solution ideas. His eyes started glazing over so I said "Concepts can also make you look good". I had his attention again. : )

 

[Cannuck]

Neglect is a problem, apathy another...action is required following proven science, and Finland is the global leader in that respect:

In Europe, Finland is a "forest giant", there being over sixteen times more forest per capita than in European countries on average. Finland's forests have been intensively harvested over the last few decades. Despite the loss of land after the last wars, its forest reserves are now greater than ever before in the 20th century, and they are continuing to grow.​

Finland's forests are probably the most intensively studied in Europe. Since the beginning of the 1920s, they and especially the wood resources that they contain have been inventoried and monitored in a great variety of ways. The inventory system now in use incorporates about a hundred variables, which relate not only to the volume and composition of wood resources, but also to such matters as soil, vegetation cover and the health of trees. Few non-experts taking a stroll in a Finnish forest are very likely to realize that the ecosystem surrounding them is the subject of such precise monitoring and statistical recording.

http://www.borealforest.org/world/world_finland.htm​

 

[oldtimer]

Reads like you're throwing in the towel too soon as to what could be possible solutions, OT. You could try some serious creative thinking to determine if there really is only one viable way to deal with it.

On the contrary, I also made the same suggestions earlier in this thread about a year ago or so, but they went unheeded.

Although in the long run reversing and controlling the Climate Change and the Environmental damage is the real solution to all the extreme conditions that we are now experiencing as far as larger fires and more severe storms and floodings, but in the short term the only viable and practical solution in my opinion is to organize a large scale effort consisting of volunteers, the unemployed who are currently looking for jobs, and the existing emergency respondents and the Environmental management and Park and Forest services personnel to totally and permanently redesign the landscape in order to eliminate the fuel that makes these fires grow to be so big.

I know that this will be a very difficult task to accomplish, but the other option will be to just watch as these fires become stronger and stronger every year and cause more and more damage and loss of life for these regions.

The same is true for the low lying areas that are going to go under water in the near future. We need to start moving people from those regions right now, because even if everyone agreed and accepted to do something about the rising oceans it will take several decades to undo all the damage that has been done to this Planet provided that we haven't already past the point of no return.

As much as I hate to say it, but because of the lack of timely and decisive action on the part of all sides in the past 50 years, we now have to accept a new normal for the World in so many different aspects that may not be what we all wanted.

IMO

 

[Cal2]

On the contrary, I also made the same suggestions earlier in this thread about a year ago or so, but they went unheeded.

Although in the long run reversing and controlling the Climate Change and the Environmental damage is the real solution to all the extreme conditions that we are now experiencing as far as larger fires and more severe storms and floodings, but in the short term the only viable and practical solution in my opinion is to organize a large scale effort consisting of volunteers, the unemployed who are currently looking for jobs, and the existing emergency respondents and the Environmental management and Park and Forest services personnel to totally and permanently redesign the landscape in order to eliminate the fuel that makes these fires grow to be so big.

I know that this will be a very difficult task to accomplish, but the other option will be to just watch as these fires become stronger and stronger every year and cause more and more damage and loss of life for these regions.

The same is true for the low lying areas that are going to go under water in the near future. We need to start moving people from those regions right now, because even if everyone agreed and accepted to do something about the rising oceans it will take several decades to undo all the damage that has been done to this Planet provided that we haven't already past the point of no return.

As much as I hate to say it, but because of the lack of timely and decisive action on the part of all sides in the past 50 years, we now have to accept a new normal for the World in so many different aspects that may not be what we all wanted.

IMO

As much as I hate to say it, your thinking on the matter is too linear. Much of it a fault of our educational systems, and our traditional logic systems.

Which means it could be the way things do go - the way you say - as most in positions of authority were brought up with the same type of training in thinking.

 

[oldtimer]

As much as I hate to say it, your thinking on the matter is too linear. Much of it a fault of our educational systems, and our traditional logic systems.

Which means it could be the way things do go - the way you say - as most in positions of authority were brought up with the same type of training in thinking.

As usual you are trying to put others down instead of providing alternative options and solutions,

We need to come up with some immediate options for the millions of people who are facing the negative effects of the Climate Change and the Environmental damage around the World today while we are still trying to implement some long term solutions to these problems.

IMO

 

[Cannuck]

As much as I hate to say it, your thinking on the matter is too linear. Much of it a fault of our educational systems, and our traditional logic systems.

Which means it could be the way things do go - the way you say - as most in positions of authority were brought up with the same type of training in thinking.

Whose educational system are you talking about? The US? I guess that might explain some of the problem, but as a university lecturer back in the 80's (Environmental Science), I advocated for change with respect to Global Warming, I met alot of resistance then and even to this day, some 40 years later, people still haven't changed their ways. Personally, in my lifetime, I have planted the seeds of knowledge and over 100 000 trees, what have you done?

 

[Cannuck]

Maybe if kids got off their ass, Iphones and lessened their gaming addictions, and did something for the environment (instead of dissing Greta) they might (and I say that loosely) have a chance to change the world for the better. IMHO

 

[Cannuck]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1304595584565743617

 

[oldtimer]

I feel sorry for those people that have ended up being in such predicament on the West Coast, but there are two separate tracks that need to be followed here simultaneously to gain control over this situation, there is the long term solution which is by undoing the damage that has been done to the Environment and reversing the effects of the Climate Change which might take several decades and then there is what we can do right this minute which is to eliminate the fuel that feeds these fires.


These are what I suggested back in Oct 2019 on this thread on page 11:


Quote: As far as cleaning the underbrush and twigs go I know it's a huge task, but it's not impossible. It can create a lot of good jobs if they put some of the unemployed people to work full time on this along side all the volunteers. They can also ask for help from all the younger generations that have recently become environmentally aware and want to do something good for their Planet. If they start an Environmental tourism program they might be able to get people to come over from all over the Nation (or the World) to help out just for the fun of it. /Quote


Quote: Yes, upgrading the electric lines and poles to make them much more stronger and raking the forest and thinning out the number of trees so that there will be some open space between them is what is going to take to bring this problem under control and if there is not the will to do it then people might as well move out of those areas because things are only going to get worse if no concrete and large scale action is taken now. /Quote


The part about the Environmental Tourism of course was before the Pandemic. Although it might still be feasible since most people are going to work outdoors and probably are going to be far apart from each other.

IMO

 

[Cannuck]

Map of global forest fires (NASA):

https://firms.modaps.eosdis.nasa.gov/map/#d:2020-09-12..2020-09-13;@-81.8,43.0,4z

 

[oldtimer]

To some extent fires have been a natural part of the Eco System of our Planet for millions of years to the point that some trees can't reproduce without the heat generated by the fires that help open up their seed pods, but when these fires go out of control and start to clash with human habitat and safety due to all the human activities that have taken the Environment out of balance then the responsibility falls on our shoulder as the human race to correct these mistakes and undo all the damage that has been done to our home Planet in the past century or so ever since we entered the age of Industrialization.

At the beginning of the Industrial age people weren't aware of all the damage that they were causing to the Environment, but for over half a Century now the scientists have been sounding the alarms as to how human activity is contributing to Climate Change and is causing damage to the Environment, but it seems like the World as a whole has chosen to ignore all these warnings and has even allowed the scientists and the Environmental activists who were consistently and continuously trying to bring attention to the Environmental catastrophes that were ahead to become the subject of ridicule and hostility simply because the corporations and forces that have been benefiting from the status quo didn't want anything to disturb their path to the riches and to jeopardize the power that they have been gaining over the people at the cost of ruining this Planet.

The good news is that more and more people are becoming aware of the Environmental problems that they now can see with their own eyes as everything that the scientists and activists have been warning them about is accelerating quickly and is becoming more and more noticeable in their daily lives.

But, the bad news is that many of the Global forces that have been contributing to all these Environmental problems are still continuing to follow the same paths and to some extent are in denial of what is happening to this Planet even though everyone can see with their own eyes that all the Environmental problems are intensifying and accelerating around them.

There is no one person to blame for all this as it is the whole World that has dropped the ball when it comes to managing this little Planet of ours properly. Even those who have been in the position of leadership globally (especially in the United Nations) who claim that they care about the Environment have been dancing around these issues for over 50 years now and have been negligent by missing many opportunities in the past to do something concrete and decisive about all these problems since they were more occupied with protecting their personal wealth and status and were enjoying their many mansions and luxury cars that they were able to accumulate by collaborating with the corporations that were jeopardizing the future of this Planet.

As every one is busy fighting over their differences in their ideologies and politics we might soon pass the point of no return when it comes to being able to undo all the damage that has been done to the Environment and reversing the effects of the Climate Change and Global Warming.

As the World is beginning to face so many calamities all at once and as all the problems that have been ignored for so long are coming to roost all at the same time it seems that a perfect storm is brewing in many fronts that if left unchecked is going to produce an existential threat to our species.

This might be the ultimate test for the humankind as to whether it can use its sense of logic and compassion to ascend to a higher level of thinking and existence that can allow it to correct all the problems that are ailing the Humanity and our Home Planet or whether it will continue on the same path and surrender to the forces of the status quo that are going to take everyone on a path to extinction.

Climate change and Global Warming can no longer be treated as an abstract idea that we can continue debating about since time is running out as casualties and damage to the human habitat and the Environment are piling up. This might be our last chance to do something about these problems before we pass the point of no return.

We need to use all our ingenuity and technological abilities to find a balance between having a healthy Economy and a healthy Planet (which includes the Environment and all its living things and their habitats). As I have been saying all along we all have to find common grounds over the Universal values and principles that are derived through logic and compassion and try to get in to a new kind of mindset that can help us become a Force For Good that is going to be worthy of being in charge of the future and destiny of the World.

This is what I had said on page 10 of this thread:

Quote: The main problem that we have with the World now is that 150 years ago at the beginning of the Industrialization age there was no one with the vision and foresight that could have helped to set things on the right track and so human activity, growth, and production have gone rampant and have evolved to become a burden on this planet to the point that many companies which could have normally been considered to be serving humanity by creating a more comfortable, convenient, and happy life for everyone are now have become the instrument of destruction and death for this planet. But if we are going to put this World on a diet to get it back in shape we have to be careful that we don't starve the good part of capitalism which is holding the economy together, because a total economical collapse can be as devastating and harmful to the future of humanity as would global warming and the other environmental issues that are putting this planet at jeopardy. /Quote

IMO

 

[Cal2]

As usual you are trying to put others down instead of providing alternative options and solutions,

We all think too linearly about most things when it comes to creating options, solutions, myself included. It's the way of things, the way we learned. If you want to take offense instead of checking into it so you can improve your potential for viable options and solutions beyond the usual, that's your choice.

 

[Cal2]

Whose educational system are you talking about? The US? I guess that might explain some of the problem, but as a university lecturer back in the 80's (Environmental Science), I advocated for change with respect to Global Warming, I met alot of resistance then and even to this day, some 40 years later, people still haven't changed their ways. Personally, in my lifetime, I have planted the seeds of knowledge and over 100 000 trees, what have you done?

No, the problem is more universal than just the US. Includes Canada, as well.

As for trees, I never got into planting them. Instead I focused on saving them, while going through university and for a brief time after.

 

[oldtimer]

We all think too linearly about most things when it comes to creating options, solutions, myself included. It's the way of things, the way we learned. If you want to take offense instead of checking into it so you can improve your potential for viable options and solutions beyond the usual, that's your choice.

The Environment is getting devastated and people are dying as we speak, best that you took your focus off of me and others here and came up with some solutions to the problems at hand.

What do you (or anyone else for that matter) propose to be done about the Climate Change and all the damage that is being done to the Environment both on the short term and the long term basis.

IMO

 

[Cannuck]

No, the problem is more universal than just the US. Includes Canada, as well. As for trees, I never got into planting them. Instead I focused on saving them, while going through university and for a brief time after.

I worked and paid my way through university in Canada partly by planting trees during the summer. Now I own and manage a solar farm and use sound environmental practices that I learned from First Nations, through education and from my forestry experience having lived in Finland.

Agreed, the Canadian education system is fair, but we are blessed with nature and a low population density. The point is, regarding forest management, we have been learning from Finland who have consistently topped the charts in education as well:

https://www.edsys.in/best-education-system-in-the-world/

https://worldtop20.org/worldbesteducationsystem

https://mintbook.com/blog/best-educational-systems-in-the-world/

New ideas are always welcome, but we don't need to prove stats to get our hands dirty...just a willingness to put best practises into action.

 

[Cannuck]

With regard to the Amazon rainforest and other countries like Madagascar, who practise slash and burn, clearing vast forest lands to make room for cattle - the archaic practice and resultant methane release reverses any gains made in CO2 reduction.

https://theprint.in/environment/why...us-greenhouse-gas-than-carbon-dioxide/378858/

Demand for beef products must be balanced by environmental protection, not only by individuals, but also requires action by governments including Canada:

New data from Brazil's own space agency show the fire devastation in the rainforest is even worse this year than in 2019, when 30 per cent more of the forest was destroyed compared with the year before.

The Amazon rainforest is one of the most critical habitats in the world, producing as much as one-fifth of the world's oxygen and storing carbon dioxide that would otherwise cause massive increases to global warming.

Fick said Greenpeace would spend Saturday, a global day of action to protect rainforests, reaching out to multiple Canadian leaders and urging them to back away from further trade with Brazil.

"What is happening in Brazil is at a crisis level and it will have global impacts in terms of what happens in the Amazon," she said. "The urgency and the scale of what we have, what the potential negative impact would have, of this trade deal are just especially striking."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/feds-abandon-trade-talks-brazil-1.5713806
​

On the topic of methane, I have also found a dietary source for cattle which, when ingested, arrests the methane release by protozoa in the first stomach of bovine, thereby reducing greenhouse gasses. I proposed the idea to agricultural scientists at Dalhousie University, who are currently studying it's efficacy in application. I don't expect any accolades, other than helping to preserve the planet for future generations - if one person can do something, anything, just imagine what we as a society could do collectively.

​

 

[Cal2]

On the topic of methane, I have also found a dietary source for cattle which, when ingested, arrests the methane release by protozoa in the first stomach of bovine, thereby reducing greenhouse gasses. I proposed the idea to agricultural scientists at Dalhousie University, who are currently studying it's efficacy in application.

An article I came across today you might find interesting, that also brings up cow gas:

Forget planting trees: This company is making carbon offsets by putting seaweed on the ocean floor