Domains sold by forum member repossessed by GoDaddy

[draco]

I bought two domains, 28924.com and 82742.com, that were advertised by Omer Doron on NamePros.

https://www.namepros.com/threads/82742-com-28924-com-350-each-sold.1101500/

I paid with PayPal and the domains were pushed to my GoDaddy account. Three weeks later, I was notified that the domains were repossessed by GoDaddy. They told me,

"The original purchases of the domains in question were charged to an invalid payment method, resulting in the repossession of products and subsequent refund for initial cost. If the seller reverses charges for the services they purchased on your behalf, we “repossess” the purchase meaning the products are removed from your account. The original price of the domains must be paid in full before they may be returned to your account. We offer you the option of purchasing the domains for the original price of $761.34. This price is the cost of the original receipts connected to these domains which has been refunded.".

The Seller is claiming that they bought the domains from someone, and they weren't the ones that paid with the invalid payment method or did the chargeback. The $761.34 GoDaddy wants is actually more than I paid for the domains. The Seller claims I'm trying to get a refund from the wrong person, because they didn't do anything wrong. I feel it's their responsibility, since they sold them to me. They should go after the person they claim they bought them from.

Originally he said he would give me a refund after he verified the information with GoDaddy. Then he said he wouldn't do it because he thought they were stolen. Then he asked me to post here anonymously and he would issue me a refund if he was convinced it was 100% the right thing to do. When I asked him what it would take to be 100% convinced, he wouldn't answer.

I opened a dispute with PayPal. He lied in the response, claiming GoDaddy told me there was something wrong with my account. GoDaddy never told me there was anything wrong with my account. They just gave me the option to buy the domains back from them. It's an option, not a debt I owe them.

 

[BlueprintMedia]

Because of the "Gab.com" issue, I already started moving all of my domains away from @GoDaddy.
GoDaddy.com used to be a great registrar, but I've had my share of experiences to now say Good Bye.
Reading this issue with repossession of domains, makes me feel good that I've made the right choice of moving on.

 

[000]

Reason for all this is simple.... it's far CHEAPER / practical / faster (and I'd imagine usually far more effective) for GoDaddy to try charging the current domain holder for their loss than it would be to pursue collections or legal action against the offender.

So here we can clearly see GoDaddy's rationale for all this: profits above customer satisfaction.

As I stated above in the thread, we have pursued every option before taking the domains. We may be working with law enforcement or other agencies I cannot comment on other people's accounts.

This raises a serious concern...

@Joe Styler , does GoDaddy ever successfully collect from BOTH parties (that is, the offender AND the innocent domain holder)?



.

 

[carob]

@Joe Styler

Was the initial sale made via expired auctions? If so, GoDaddy hasn’t really lost any money.

Key question here for @Joe Styler - looking forward to the answer.

 

[Joe Styler]

No, I don't believe that is the case "Taken by force". You have to look at the big picture, a large company with millions of transactions that is a small number. There are probably many bad credit cards, expired credit cards and non-renewals due to old credit card info, no way to contact by past owner, etc. lot's of those sorts of payments are buried in that number.

There are many types of situations that can put a domain into that whois status as stated above. We do not take domains from most people by force. You could for instance buy 5k 99 cent domains to set up a spam network or something. We are going to repo them once we get valid abuse complaint. As I said it is very few domains taken from an account of a legitimate person or you would be hearing about it much more on here or other domain outlets.

 

[Joe Styler]

Reason for all this is simple.... it's far CHEAPER / practical / faster (and I'd imagine usually far more effective) for GoDaddy to try charging the current domain holder for their loss than it would be to pursue collections or legal action against the offender.

So here we can clearly see GoDaddy's rationale for all this: profits above customer satisfaction.




This raises a serious concern...

@Joe Styler , does GoDaddy ever successfully collect from BOTH parties (that is, the offender AND the innocent domain holder)?



.

No if we get the payment from the original party we stop pursuing it. If we work it out with the credit card company we stop pursuing it, etc, etc until the very last option which is to take the domain back.

 

[karmaco]

If you all took your names elsewhere and stopped giving GoDaddy all your sales they might actually care about customer satisfaction and the right thing. But they don’t have to do they?

As it stands they are a spoiled monopoly who think they are so infallible and mighty that they won’t write off $700 dollars no matter what.

Joe has other things to do don’t bother him guys If This doesn’t tell you GoDaddy doesn’t give a hoot about its domaining customers I don’t know what does. Bet they wouldn’t take this stance if some hotshot was the buyer.

 

[Joe Styler]

Key question here for @Joe Styler - looking forward to the answer.

I do not know and have not looked. I am not able to comment on other people's accounts so it is better/safer for me to not look into the specifics inside other people's accounts on this situation and let something non-public slip by accident.

 

[carob]

As you stated earlier you could easily sue us to get the info. He could pursue this several ways which would end up in court. The court would demand the records no doubt. The truth will always come out one way or another. It is not easy to hide.

Is this a stock GD answer when they want to withhold info? Just say yes you can have the info but you have to engage a lawyer, pay, and wait.

No joking, I wanted to check what happened in a phone call with GD (never ever trust their phone support - no ticket, no record, no paper trail, no comeback if they let you down). They claimed the only way to access the phone call contents was to send a subpoena. OK so use their "chat" instead, at least you get a written record to refer to... but that said queue of 73, 30+minutes to wait. And they discourage callers from outside US by making them ring a US number at huge expense if things get difficult. Good for profits short term I guess, not good for retaining customers.

 

[carob]

I do not know and have not looked. I am not able to comment on other people's accounts so it is better/safer for me to not look into the specifics inside other people's accounts on this situation and let something non-public slip by accident.

If it was an auction it was public.

 

[Joe Styler]

Imagine if you walked into your local hardware store and bought a $300 generator.

You take it home, use it for WEEKS, and then one day someone just drives up and seizes it.

"Sorry bud, turns out someone's payment along the way was fraudulent, and we're actually the rightful owner now. Trust me on that!"

"Hey I spent $300 on that! I've got my receipt right here!"

"Sorry bud. Really a shame that happened to you. If you want a good generator, I'll sell you one for $300."

If the hardware store was selling stolen goods the police may show up and take it back. Which goes back to my point, you should always use a trusted venue - or hardware store in your analogy and a payment method that protects you. If you paid for that generator with AMEX or Visa they should give you your money back when you show them the police paperwork for your generator.

 

[Keith]

I do not know and have not looked. I am not able to comment on other people's accounts so it is better/safer for me to not look into the specifics inside other people's accounts on this situation and let something non-public slip by accident.

It has nothing to do with account info. Were the domains sold via expired auction? It’s just a yes or no and certainly easy for you to find out. It’s an important question because if the answer is yes, we have an entirely different ballgame.

 

[000]

Again, I expect GoDaddy is within their rights when they seize a domain. But it's unquestionably going to result in an extremely poor experience for one of your INNOCENT customers.

Maybe that's worth it for GoDaddy, maybe not.

As for me, I often spend $10k a year at GoDaddy, and that amount is going to dwindle from here on out. As I said, I don't believe it's fair for ME to pass this risk on to MY customers. It's a position opposite of GoDaddy's, but I'm confident it's the right one.

 

[.X.]

First of all, @draco, I know this is devastating for you, in more ways than one. this is really-really bad, with all things, considered, you are handling this very professionally.

I have read all the posts in this thread as well as the other thread by
Omar, We have one scammer, and that is the person who purchased the domains from Godaddy and sold them on Undeveloped. Knowing who this scammers name, the country is crucial IMO,

Keeping it totally real, Godaddy can't be held accountable. Undeveloped can't be held accountable for this IMO, Omar can't be held accountable for this, Omar had no idea. The scamming fraudster is the complete culprit in this matter IMO.

Because domain names are nontangible goods, people can pull this chargeback shit, It has been done in past years via Paypal, I didn't hear of it happening a lot, but I did hear of it happening.

we need to get a name and country of origin of this scammer, It would probably take a subpoena to get it,

I see a lot of posts about how Godaddy should absorb the $700 and everyone move forward, It is business, I don't know of a company that would take a $700 loss when a third party sell took place. That is just business, Good, Bad or indifferent.

I am just hoping for some justice for Draco.

 

[Keith]

The title of this thread should be edited immediately to remove the selling members name.

 

[rentmynames]

I always move my domains out of godaddys, after 60 days purchased. I just don’t trust godaddys for some reasons

 

[Silentptnr]

Seems to me the domains could have been transfer locked by GD while collection efforts and legal remedies were being pursued.

I do understand why GD policy is what it is. GD could be exploited by groups of fraudsters working together. I get it.

Problem is, GD should be able to do a lot to collect from the original non-payer. Up to and including a seeking a monetary judgement. It's obvious GD doesn't want to do any work to recover the unpaid invoice.

Noone should take control of a domain until monies have cleared. When we use an escrow. Both parties agree they are satisfied. Seems to me, GD implied that it was satisfied.

This is the type of situation is really unfortunate. This is a case of GD actually enabling domain fraud by allowing a domain onto the open market before they've confirmed their sale was paid for.

In this day and age, GD doesn't confirm it actually has payment for domains...just gives them out...knowing people buy and sell them.. Big mistake for such an established company.

Undeveloped, qualifies (weasels out of) it's Buyer Protection to exclude a domain name they just sold and collected a commission on.

This entire problem is the fault of GD. Regardless of TOS.

 

[boker]

If the hardware store was selling stolen goods the police may show up and take it back. Which goes back to my point, you should always use a trusted venue - or hardware store in your analogy and a payment method that protects you. If you paid for that generator with AMEX or Visa they should give you your money back when you show them the police paperwork for your generator.

You are trying to imply that the domains were stolen, so that godaddy will look a little more better, but an expired card or chargeback is not the same as stolen.
Also, for example, I have an online shop and somebody is doing a chargeback for a sold and delivered tv. He than sells randomly that tv on the street to a guy who is paying rent to me. So, by godaddy rules, I have all the rights to go to my tenant home and repossess the tv because it was not paid in properly from the start, no? I can't understand how is that possible in the US, but in Europe, if I will take a company like yours to court, not only that you will loose, but you will pay a fine hundreds of times that amount so that you will not do it next time again.

 

[maya-zir]

@draco, how did you pay? Paypal?

 

[joe849384]

You are trying to imply that the domains were stolen, so that godaddy will look a little more better, but an expired card or chargeback is not the same as stolen.
Also, for example, I have an online shop and somebody is doing a chargeback for a sold and delivered tv. He than sells randomly that tv on the street to a guy who is paying rent to me. So, by godaddy rules, I have all the rights to go to my tenant home and repossess the tv because it was not paid in properly from the start, no? I can't understand how is that possible in the US, but in Europe, if I will take a company like yours to court, not only that you will loose, but you will pay a fine hundreds of times that amount so that you will not do it next time again.

Even in the US, if a car dealership sells a car, buyer pays with a credit card, and title is transferred. Guess what, even if buyer does a chargeback, dealership cannot repossess the car. Title has been transferred. The dealership will have to go to court to put a lien on the title before it is sold to a third party.

What are ICANN's rules on this topic? I'm pretty curious.

 

[Shailendra Mishra]

Yes we do which is why you should use a platform like ours. So if you use us and sell a domain and it clears our checks we pay you. But scammers beware if you are trying to sell stolen goods on the auctions you are stealing from us and we will pursue it via other payments you have or the local authorities. We have a local presence in many countries and work with local law enforcement around the world.

1. So you will bear the loss in that case! because in that case you have no one from whom you can snatch the domains to cover your loss. (The easy way is not available)

2. Why not use your anti-fraud machinery to recover your losses in this case as well rather than snatching domains from current owner (Draco)?

3. Or is it just a gimmick to discourage people from using other escrow services and encourage them to use godaddy platform for "second hand" transactions?

4. You cant reveal the information of culprit ! Even to your own newly created victim (Draco) ? Now what option does he have to recover his money?
If he blames his immediate seller (Doron) it will be as wrong as what you did, i.e. targeting the easiest person while real culprit remains safe, because his info is safe with you.

5. How do we know that if is it not a fraud by you? You wont tell anything about real scammer, Does he even exist? You can snatch any domain with same excuse if you do not have to provide more info, isnt it? You snatched domain from Draco but no not assisst him in legal ways to catch the culprit?

6. Had Draco transferred out the domain (which now we all are thinking of doing), would you still penalize him by freezing his account/snatching his other domains or creating an invoice?

7. You said that if you give relief to current owner Draco, it would encourage more fraud. But did you also said you have strong anti-fraud mechanism spread in several countries? You are claiming that you will eat loss in "second hand" transaction, but you are not eating loss in first hand transaction. WOW.

8. If the original scammer win the auction and he was fraud, would the auction have still ended on this price had you removed his bids? As per my maths the final auction price in case of removing winners bid should be = Bid of third highest bidder + 1 increment.

9. So as per point 8 your real loss is not $700. But since this was an expired auction. There is actually no loss for Godaddy, other than the renewal of domains. Just lack of profit. But no loss.


You conveniently cherrypicked and answered the easier questions, didnt you?

 

[Silentptnr]

No retail business sells something and gets stiffed (because they didn't properly secure payment) , tracks down the item (to an innocent 4th party), then takes the item back by force from an innocent 4th party.

Who would ever do business with a company that does that.

How do we know this wasn't an inside job at GD?

Absolutely ridiculous. GD got stiffed because they didn't properly finalize their sale.

Horrible business practice.

 

[Internet.Domains]

If there was only a poll on this subject.

 

[equity78]

Other registrars should really weigh in on this topic, do they repossess domains?

@Dynadot @namesilo @Epik.com @namedotcom-jon @Fabulous.com @Uniregistry

And thanks to @Joe Styler for taking the time to get back to so many questions.

 

[Internet.Domains]

Other registrars should really weigh in on this topic, do they repossess domains?

@Dynadot @namesilo @Epik.com @namedotcom-jon @Fabulous.com @Uniregistry

And thanks to @Joe Styler for taking the time to get back to so many questions.

Yes, thanks to @Joe Styler for discussing and explaining from GD's view. Agree or disagree, the fact that he stood ground is commendable at the very least.

 

[Shailendra Mishra]

Agreed the bid was a fake bid, if it was a fraudlent bid, so why would godaddy make the person who was repo'ed pay the winning bid? It should remove all bids by the high bidder, and the last landing point by the second highest bidder should be the purchase price, otherwise godaddy is profiting by fraudlent bids if they are charging repo'ed accounts this fee. When someone fails to pay for a winning bid, a second chance offer is presented, and the person is suspended from the platform, what about all the other bids that day they placed, or caused harm to other bidders, are those bids discounted back also, especially if proxies were engaged? It is one big circle, and that is why unqualified, or unverified bidders are very dangerous. Most local authorities do not have the resources to follow up on 3-4 figures of financial issues, they will tell you this is a civil matter, and take it up in court for financial recovery, or hire a collection agency. In the case of a charge back, what recourse does godaddy undertake before repo'ing a domain from another party? Collections would probably need about 120 days before write off.

Excellent point. If the winner of an auctions turns out to be a non payer (or scammer or whatever). The real final price of the auction should be

= (Highest bid by the 3rd highest bidder + 1 increment)*

*Understand that this price may be much lower than the actual highest bid the second highest bidder had made in pressure of the "fake" highest bidder who had no intention of paying in real money.

So in a way Godaddy encourages fraud bidders because fraud bidders raise the prices of domains on their behalf, and once an auction is finalized, it does not matter whether the fraud auction winner pay or not/pay via "invalid method", because Godaddy can force second highest bidder or subsequent owner (like Draco) to pay this inflated final price (or less one increment) not real price.

Similarly if the second highest bidder is also fake (provided you have to catch him in advance). The final price should be
= Highest bid by the fourth highest bidder + 1 increment.
and so on. these real prices may be ten times lower than inflated final bids.