status-resolved Change official min apprasial value from reg fee to $0

[james haw]

In the appraisals forum the minimum value that can be given for any domain name is "Reg Fee" (forum rules). I presume the logic is that's the minimum one can pay. However, the minimum you can buy a domain name for is not the same as the value or what it is worth.

I could purchase:
djmfj58385nfjhd89o43ndsf8u3n4j09sdjkndf845wdsdf.movie
The reg fee is $170 a year (Namecheap, could differ elsewhere)

Is this domain name really worth $170? I'd have to essentially say "yes" in the appraisals section based on "reg fee". When really it's worth $0 because my "appraisal" and therefore "value" of this domain name is "it won't sell and is worth $0".

Lowering the extreme, a .com reg cost is around $9. Some domain names are terrible and the appraisal is "it won't sell and it was pointless buying it and so it has a $0 value IMO". I do not really want to state "this is worth $9 (reg fee) and was worth you buying it" as this is inaccurate.


I think we should give people an accurate appraisal, that a domain is worthless = $0, not worthless = $9.


If I've missed a reason behind this do let me know

 

[usernamex]

I support this idea
It seems to be acceptable to make the suggestion for a person to get a refund, which is essentially an appraisal of zero.

It would also be lovely if members actually used the provided templates (which I didn't know existed until just now looking for the rules!)
https://www.namepros.com/threads/domain-evaluation-and-appraisals-guide.860781/

 

[Eric Lyon]

For reference, the rule is:

5.1. All appraisals must be at reg fee or above.

Your comments:

Is this domain name really worth $170?

If someone paid for it, yes.

The reason it is not allowed is because it was worth a minimum of reg fee to the person who bought it and now they are requesting an appraisal on it. There's no reason to insult them and tell them that it's not worth reg fee to them when they have already proven that it was, since they paid for it.

However, you could let them know that you would not renew it. The value of a domain changes from one year to the next, and although it was worth reg fee to someone (them) when they bought it, it may not be worth reg fee to them anymore upon renewal time.

It seems to be acceptable to make the suggestion for a person to get a refund, which is essentially an appraisal of zero.

This is similar to suggesting that they not renew the domain name, which is a more respectful way of trying to help them instead of saying that the domain they spent $10 or $500 on is worth $0, when they, themselves, paid more than $0. They may also be willing to renew it, at which point, it's still worth the renewal fee to someone (them).

It's more of a courtesy rule than anything else.

 

[timestamp]

How about ability to run 'test auction' in same thread to see will it go from $0 to reg fee in 3 days?

Edit:
I've got it! Appraise it at 'coupon code'. It's between $0 and reg fee, and everyone is happy.

 

[timestamp]

Courtesy appraisals:

1. promo (.xyz promotional price: 0.02 - 0.88)
2. coupon (discount price)
3. reg fee (registration price)

 

[Eric Lyon]

Excellent suggestions!

We're looking into how we can adjust the rules to account for that.

 

[frank-germany]

If someone paid for it, yes.

I highly doubt it.

actually what somebody paid for a domain tells you nothing about the value

is porno.com worth 150K or 8888K ?

Is a bargain that somebody got when he got a domain ridiculously cheap
( like was buying jaeger.org for $20 USD )
telling you anything about the value of the domain?

jaeger =hunter
jaeger= last name

no.

is the offer I got telling you something ( 2K )

maybe : yes

 

[Eric Lyon]

Is a bargain that somebody got when he got a domain ridiculously cheap

This thread is about the minimum value, not the actual value.

 

[frank-germany]

If someone paid for it, yes.

I highly doubt it.

 

[james haw]

This thread is about the minimum value, not the actual value.

In an appraisal request any value given is what someone believes the domain name to be worth on the aftermarket. It's a personal estimation, and could be from "$0" and above. This includes "minimum" value.

In the appraisal forum:

1. "Value" - Is the estimated potential resale value of a domain name speculated to what other people would pay for it in the domain marketplace
   
2. "Actual value" - see 1 above
3. "Minimum value" - see 1 above
4. "Maximum value" - see 1 above
   
5. "Reg fee" - Is not a value, it's a payment to a registrar in order to rent the domain name and the price is set by the registrar. The renewal fee can have a bearing on a domain names potential resale value, but it does not dictate some pre-determined "minimum value"

It looks silly to me when people put (and it happens frequently):

I don't think this has any value.
$reg fee

$reg fee is not "no value", it is a positive value.

Is this domain name really worth $170?

If someone paid for it, yes.

I disagree entirely. Are you really saying that example domain name is worth $170? It is not, because in the context of "appraisals" the "worth" is what someone is willing to buy it for after the user has regged it. No-one will buy that for $170!

There's no reason to insult them and tell them that it's not worth reg fee to them when they have already proven that it was, since they paid for it.

I really don't think anyone is being insulted.

But they're not asking me to tell them what it's worth to them or what they paid for it, they already know this. They're asking me what is it worth to sell to other people, and if I think no-one would buy the domain name then I need to state $0, not $reg fee That's what they paid for it, not what others could pay for it.

It's more of a courtesy rule than anything else.

Being polite is fine, but letting them down gently is not the same as lying about the potential value of their domain name just to not hurt their feelings or ego...



That said, this is marked as "status-resolved" so I take it that's that anyway...

Cheers

 

[theSun]

The minimum value of any domain names is always registration fee.

It cannot be $0.

Those who appraise a domain name for $0 only shows the lack of confidence, selling resources, private list of domain buyers base, and marketing strategies.

 

[Eric Lyon]

No-one will buy that for $170!

The registrant already bought it for that, and if they renew it, then they'll have bought it again for that price. So yes, if someone pays $170 for a domain that you think is the worst domain in the world, that doesn't change the fact that the domain is worth $170 because that is what the registrant is paying for it. The fact that you disagree does not change its value. The money has already been paid and spoken. Its value is what someone is willing to pay for it, and in this case, it would be $170 until someone is willing to pay more or the current buyer at $170 is no longer willing to pay that.

This is the same with all domain sales, not just registrations. A domain is worth what the buyer is willing to pay. Until the domain name is no longer registered, it is worth a minimum of registration/renewal fee to someone and it cannot possibly be worth less than that.

One caveat is when the registrant is no longer willing to renew it or on the fence, in which case the value might be worth less than the renewal fee and we need to allow responses for that. We're looking into it.

Note: The value of a domain name is not based on what most people will pay for it. The price that the market will pay for it is a different matter and that's called its market value, market price, liquid value, liquid price, etc.

 

[JB Lions]

There's no reason to insult them and tell them that it's not worth reg fee to them when they have already proven that it was, since they paid for it.

That's just ridiculous. Being honest with somebody is not insulting them. It's an appraisal forum. Let's look at the definition of the word:

"an act of assessing something or someone"

"an expert estimate of the value of something"

If somebody feels it's $0, then it's $0.

This - djmfj58385nfjhd89o43ndsf8u3n4j09sdjkndf845wdsdf.movie

is $0.

You're worried about feelings but you're not actually being nice to them by lying and saying it's worth reg fee. If you tell them reg fee, you're telling them they were right in registering it and if it was ok to reg it once, why not renew it. You're actually hurting them, you're not educating them. Maybe they get a reg fee appraisal and say hey, let me go register some more crap names just like it, they told me it's worth the registration.

Honesty is better than lying to them. They're adults, they can handle it.

 

[Eric Lyon]

If you tell them reg fee, you're telling them they were right in registering it and if it was ok to reg it once, why not renew it. You're actually hurting them, you're not educating them.

The rule does not say that you have to tell them it is worth reg fee if you don't believe that it is. Reg fee is the minimum. If you believe they shouldn't renew it, then you can tell them that (That's been covered in this thread).

We're considering changing the rule due to the caveats mentioned in this thread.

 

[james haw]

if someone pays $170 for a domain that you think is the worst domain in the world, that doesn't change the fact that the domain is worth $170.
Its value is what someone is willing to pay for it. This is the same with all domain sales, not just registrations.

The value is what someone is willing to pay for it as a buyer, but the owner and person requesting an appraisal is now a seller. The value of the domain name was only what they were willing to pay for it before they bought it, once paid that becomes their "investment cost" and the "domain value" now becomes what someone else will pay for it.

If the entire world wouldn't buy it, is it still worth $170? To who? To everyone in the world the value is $0, to the owner as a seller as no-one will buy it its value is $0, the owner's investment is $170


So in the appraisal forum surely we're by default valuing the domain name based on potential future sale in the domain name marketplace? How much it was bought for is already known and needs no "appraisal" nor experience at all. If the appraisal forum is about "worth to the owner" then I think we've all missed the point of it.

IMHO The point is to appraise the domain name's value based on re-sale potential in the market, to other buyers. This is the entire reason nearly all people post in the appraisals forum - they already know what it cost them, that's not why they're there.

Until the domain name is no longer registered, it is worth a minimum of registration/renewal fee to someone and it cannot possibly be worth less than that.

Many domain names get sold for less than they were originally bought, including less than the original reg fee it was purchased at. Does this sale lower than the original price not identify that purchase price is not necessarily the absolute minimum value of the name?

Many people make a loss on domain names, so while the purchase price can potentially have an impact or carry implications towards the minimum value, the minimum value is not by default determined by the purchase price.

One caveat is when the registrant is no longer willing to renew it or on the fence, in which case the value might be worth less than the renewal fee and we need to allow responses for that.

Advice about whether to keep for a year, renew, get a refund if possible, or try the markets for a while are all things we can discuss and advise the owner. And if a name "might" sell then we say "try Sedo" etc.
But the value is in no way affected by the owner wanting to keep it or renew it or not.


To me it is this simple, I do not care what they paid for it, what they want it to be worth, nor their plans, nor if they are Frank Schilling - a "sensible" valuation of "msdf345dnfkj345nmdnfkjwmn34534.mobi" is $0!






The reason I brought this up in the first place:
I think we should be considerate in the appraisals section, regardless of potential value, but it is full of newcomers to domain sales who "when appropriate" really need to be accurately told they wasted their money and should not have bought it and it's worth $0, or they'll buy more. Like JB Lions pointed out, we're not educating them, and that is not how to learn from each other. When you started domain trading way back when, if everyone had said "yeah it's worth what you paid for it at least", you'd possibly have "invested" in more crap as people told you your investments were of "sound value" (maybe you didn't, it's just an example).

I sure as heck would have if people hadn't said "this is worthless, waste of money, worth $0". I'd have bought more hand reg crap, and not stepped back and thought hard about it all. I needed to learn and see why my adventurous and "clever" domain name purchases were pointless and a waste of my time and money.

This is what I appraise for. Not to vent or feel good telling someone they're wrong or have bought a dead donkey, such things bring me no joy at all as I know a lot of people buy out of some dream or hope etc. I do it to help them any way I can.

I try to be polite, but people most certainly need to know their domain name is worthless if it is, otherwise they'll buy more like it, not learn, and never make any money trading, and waste their time and money. And some people spend money they don't really have on a whim they can make money. Lots of us have been there - thinking we can make a quick $500 from a hand reg because we've seen domain names sold for $50K and $300K etc which "don't seem" much better than the one we bought (with our inexperienced eyes).
But with experience we all know it doesn't work like that, and we need to hand that down to others. Whether they take it or not is up to them, many don''t and know better, but that is human attitude and beyond the help of this forum



All that said, I do appreciate there's more to consider with the overall appearance and greater meaning the forums provide.

Cheers

 

[Eric Lyon]

Thank you to @timestamp @james haw @usernamex @JB Lions @tekz999 and everyone else for their feedback.

All appraisal amounts are now allowed, with the following caveat:

5.1. All appraisals below $10 must include a unique explanation to support the assessment.

The rule update above will allow $0 appraisals, but only if they are informative and constructive. We don't want a bunch of mindless $0 appraisals, but we do understand that there are times when members want to be helpful by educating new members that their domain may not be worth renewing and why.

If you notice that this isn't the best solution, please create a new thread in the future after we've given this a try, and we will re-evaluate the rule.

Happy appraising!