discuss Catchy vs. Vanilla

[ThatNameGuy]

CookingInstitute
YumInstitute
FoodInstitute


Question? Which domains sell best? All three of these domains are registered, and two have been registered for twenty years. They say "beauty" is in the eyes of the beholder, but is "catchy"? "vanilla"?

Do you have a CatchyPersona? or a VanillaPersona?

 

[koolishman]

CookingInstitute
YumInstitute
FoodInstitute


Question? Which domains sell best? All three of these domains are registered, and two have been registered for twenty years. They say "beauty" is in the eyes of the beholder, but is "catchy"? "vanilla"?

Do you have a CatchyPersona? or a VanillaPersona?

Little bit of both personalities.

I like foodinstitute.

 

[ThatNameGuy]

Little bit of both personalities.

I like foodinstitute.

"koolish" (your moniker) is catchy I'm surprised at your choice, "food" is vanilla/traditional. btw, there is no right or wrong answer.

 

[koolishman]

"koolish" (your moniker) is catchy I'm surprised at your choice, "food" is vanilla/traditional. btw, there is no right or wrong answer.

Food institute has cooking+yum institutes in it.

 

[karmaco]

Food Institute is the best name. Nobody is going to take something called Yum Institute seriously unless its a cooking class for children. Its not just the catchy versus vanilla. The context matters. The intent of the business matters. The brand persona of that business matters.

Its easy to critique names based on fun versus classic. But it’s just not that simple in real life application. Some businesses are super serious and want a credible name. Others are more light hearted and want a fun name.

You where right when you said there is no right answer.

 

[BrandAptly.com]

Not only did people take Twitter seriously, reputable fund managers injected millions of their money and other investors' money into it. I maintain that it's one of the silliest business names out there.

 

[Internet.Domains]

Not only did people take Twitter seriously, reputable fund managers injected millions of their money and other investors' money into it. I maintain that it's one of the silliest business names out there.

Google as well.

 

[pb]

Not only did people take Twitter seriously, reputable fund managers injected millions of their money and other investors' money into it. I maintain that it's one of the silliest business names out there.

But Twitter is a single word, so it can be silly but it's catchy.
Now if it was TwitterInstitute, that would be just silly.

Cooking vs Yum vs Food?
Yum is obviously the most brandable.
But it just doesn't click if you connect it with a "serious" word.

 

[bmugford]

Food Institute is obviously the best one by a huge margin. "Food" is so broad it could apply to so many things from food services, to preparation, reviews, cooking, and much more.

Cooking is alright but more narrow.

Yum is meh. Normally a word like "Institute" is more professional so a cute brandable + that makes less sense.

Brad

 

[Bob Hawkes]

I vote FoodInstitute as well.

I am not opposed to catchy, and in fact think quirky brands often are the ones finding traction, but similar to what @bmugford said to me YumInstitute is a mismatch between words. Institutes, often associated with government, NGO or research, are sort of classic and serious, and yum not so. I am not saying that a mismatch never works, but here it does not for me. A brandable like HiYum (no idea if it is a name) combines two playful words, so to me congruent.

BTW I like this sort of thread @ThatNameGuy . Throw out a small number of names, have people say which is better, and why.

Bob

PS This is one place that FoodInstitute in .org for me would be possibly even more valuable.

 

[ThatNameGuy]

But Twitter is a single word, so it can be silly but it's catchy.
Now if it was TwitterInstitute, that would be just silly.

Cooking vs Yum vs Food?
Yum is obviously the most brandable.
But it just doesn't click if you connect it with a "serious" word.[/QUOTE

I sort of like YumU for Yum University, but someone has that? I noticed YumCollege and YumCollegiate are available as is CulinaryCollegiate.com (two "serious" words) The word "Culinary" is in half the names of the top 30 schools in the country. YumU is certainly "catchy" enough, but it doesn't say you're a school? Maybe it needs a tagline?

 

[ecalc]

Yum is obviously the most brandable.

NYSE listed / S&P 500 component Yum! Brands Inc. probably agrees with you. Their suggestive mark is strong enough to add real infringement risk in the food arena so descriptive terms food and cooking have more domain investment protection and upside.

 

[ThatNameGuy]

I vote FoodInstitute as well.

I am not opposed to catchy, and in fact think quirky brands often are the ones finding traction, but similar to what @bmugford said to me YumInstitute is a mismatch between words. Institutes, often associated with government, NGO or research, are sort of classic and serious, and yum not so. I am not saying that a mismatch never works, but here it does not for me. A brandable like HiYum (no idea if it is a name) combines two playful words, so to me congruent.

BTW I like this sort of thread @ThatNameGuy . Throw out a small number of names, have people say which is better, and why.

Bob

PS This is one place that FoodInstitute in .org for me would be possibly even more valuable.

"quirky"....now that's an interesting word Bob. Slightly off topic, but my Dad's old girlfriend's maiden name was "Quirk". She's 102 and will be 103 in May. I was in Annapolis and had Sunday Brunch with her last Sunday...now here's the real kicker...she had two older sisters and they all went to the University of Md in the late 30's...they were called the "Quirky Sisters" I guess they could have called them the "Catchy Sisters", but some names fit like a glove.

 

[Bob Hawkes]

"quirky"....now that's an interesting word Bob

I should point out that I am influenced by Jeremy Miller's book title Brand New Name that has a section on Quirky Brands!
Bob

 

[Ategy]

GOOD question! (I bet you weren't expecting that .. lol)

And I'll also stress that you asked about which SELLS better .. which unfortunately is VERY DIFFERENT from which is actually the better brand (although often the answer is the same).

Ultimately it really depends on the business and industry in question.

But generally speaking, flashy/catchy names can be better at grabbing attention and optimising viral buzz if that's a marketing requirement of the company in question. It's important to note the differences in search as well if they are notable.


HOWEVER .. the big problem when going back to which SELLS better is that the biggest factors is that a potential buyer needs to:

(1) THINK of your domain,
(2) FIND your domain,
(3) Be willing to PAY your price, and
(4) Not be swayed by COMPETING similar domains at the same price

The combination of #2, #3 and #4 are already big obstacles in the industry, as most people starting a new business really have zero knowledge or awareness of the domain aftermarket. But that's a very different discussion and not really the point here as it's a similar obstacle for both types of domains.

Which leaves us with #1 in that list being the big difference; the issue of potential buyers thinking up of, and trying to find your "catchy" domain. When someone is starting a new cooking school, they will have a HIGH likelyhood of searching for the most obvious names like CookingInstitute and FoodInstitute. However, even if YumInstitute** might be better for them in terms of having a fun, catchy and viral brand, it's an unfortunate fact that many potential buyers will not think of YumInstitute** compared to those other two.

In theory this is how sites like BrandBucket and SquadHelp can try to help boost the chances of those catchy names. I suppose they can make a small difference, but it really depends on the names and industries they specialise in. Plus they are now all flooded with names. However, in theory if optimised, a good name (as an end user) like YumInstitute** would be at the top of every food related search.


@ThatNameGuy .. This difference is effectively the root of what I keep trying to repeat and get you to "catch"! Names like 9Time aren't necessarily bad brands for a business .. but they are bad investments as a domainer because of the extreme drop in likelihood of a end-user ever getting to the point of searching for that name.

That's why I keep saying what you're doing is business development and NOT domaining. Because naming a business is SUPER easy. Anyone can easily come up with a usable and even good business name .. but getting DOMAINS that will actually be thought of, searched for, and found by the high volume of potential buyers willing to pay a significant multiple is a very VERY different thing and vastly more challenging.

I don't have any significant issues against you starting a business with the name 9Time. If we ignore the 9/nine problem, it's a decent brand for your nine-hole concept. So YES, it's a good enough brand to use to develop a business. But it's an absolutely worthless domain investment because of the astronomical odds that anyone else will ever:
1) Randomly think about your exact domain
2) Find it
3) Be willing to pay a substantial markup as opposed to just handregging an equally good domain.
4) On top of that you name needs to be better than all the competing names at the same pricepoint.

Domains like FoodInstitute, CookingInstitute and FastGolf are already challenging for domainers with points 2, 3 and 4 to work against.

But domains like YumInstitute** and particularly 9Time (and Simpli____) also face that extra first challenge. Then when you combine that very very significant obstacle with the 3 others, it's not so much that the domain will never sell .. but when compared to those other 3-obstacle domains, the math and statistics place the 4-obstacle domains significantly outside of the portfolio profitability zone.

Best case scenario a domain like 9Time would sell for $999 .. so effectively about a 100x over handreg. But while that sounds and looks good in theory, when you combine that with the likely sell-through rate of a 4-obstacle domain of around 0.25%/yr (probably MUCH less), a portfolio of equal domains will end each year with unavoidably big losses. YES .. you might (and will) occasionally get super lucky with one, but overall the math screams to steer very clear from 4-obstacle domains .. particularly when you consider that 3-obstacle portfolios are already challenging to make money with.


THE NUMBER ONE OBSTACLE facing new domainers is unfortunately the sad fact they need to keep their imaginations in check. It is good up to a point to find fun and creative names. But if those brand creations are too creative and original, more often than not they're focusing more on big-losses 4-obstacle domains rather than slightly-profitable 3-obstacle domains. Even after 3 years domaining I have to fight myself from reverting back to my former end-user perspective, where I think .. oh wow .. that would be an amazing brand! But unless the words are very common, then it's an unfortunate fact that too few potential buyers would think about it. So that when all the math of all the other factors are combined, they are simply really bad investments AS A DOMAINER (even if YES they might be good brands).

I do buy such domains on rare occasions, but that's not for the domainer in me, it's for the former owner of a big web community who sometimes dreams about building out a new web project (and then realises he never has the time .. lol).


VERY IMPORTANT ** YumInstitute ** - For the sake of this conversation I'm placing YumInstitute as a lower quality domain investment because it is significantly lower when compared to FoodInstitute and CookingInstitute .. but in actually fact, it's not all that bad. More middle zone .. the math would probably be fine as long as you got it around or under $30.

 

[ThatNameGuy]

NYSE listed / S&P 500 component Yum! Brands Inc. probably agrees with you. Their suggestive mark is strong enough to add real infringement risk in the food arena so descriptive terms food and cooking have more domain investment protection and upside.

I don't disagree with your premise ecalc, but if you were to check USPTO for "Live" Yum TM names you'll find there are 315 of them like Yum Yum Donuts that was just approved in 2018. I own a few "yum" domains that really don't compete with anything Yum Brands does so I'm really not concerned,, but thanks for the heads up.

 

[ThatNameGuy]

GOOD question! (I bet you weren't expecting that .. lol)

And I'll also stress that you asked about which SELLS better .. which unfortunately is VERY DIFFERENT from which is actually the better brand (although often the answer is the same).

Ultimately it really depends on the business and industry in question.

But generally speaking, flashy/catchy names can be better at grabbing attention and optimising viral buzz if that's a marketing requirement of the company in question. It's important to note the differences in search as well if they are notable.


HOWEVER .. the big problem when going back to which SELLS better is that the biggest factors is that a potential buyer needs to:

(1) THINK of your domain,
(2) FIND your domain,
(3) Be willing to PAY your price, and
(4) Not be swayed by COMPETING similar domains at the same price

The combination of #2, #3 and #4 are already big obstacles in the industry, as most people starting a new business really have zero knowledge or awareness of the domain aftermarket. But that's a very different discussion and not really the point here as it's a similar obstacle for both types of domains.

Which leaves us with #1 in that list being the big difference; the issue of potential buyers thinking up of, and trying to find your "catchy" domain. When someone is starting a new cooking school, they will have a HIGH likelyhood of searching for the most obvious names like CookingInstitute and FoodInstitute. However, even if YumInstitute** might be better for them in terms of having a fun, catchy and viral brand, it's an unfortunate fact that many potential buyers will not think of YumInstitute** compared to those other two.

In theory this is how sites like BrandBucket and SquadHelp can try to help boost the chances of those catchy names. I suppose they can make a small difference, but it really depends on the names and industries they specialise in. Plus they are now all flooded with names. However, in theory if optimised, a good name (as an end user) like YumInstitute** would be at the top of every food related search.


@ThatNameGuy .. This difference is effectively the root of what I keep trying to repeat and get you to "catch"! Names like 9Time aren't necessarily bad brands for a business .. but they are bad investments as a domainer because of the extreme drop in likelihood of a end-user ever getting to the point of searching for that name.

That's why I keep saying what you're doing is business development and NOT domaining. Because naming a business is SUPER easy. Anyone can easily come up with a usable and even good business name .. but getting DOMAINS that will actually be thought of, searched for, and found by the high volume of potential buyers willing to pay a significant multiple is a very VERY different thing and vastly more challenging.

I don't have any significant issues against you starting a business with the name 9Time. If we ignore the 9/nine problem, it's a decent brand for your nine-hole concept. So YES, it's a good enough brand to use to develop a business. But it's an absolutely worthless domain investment because of the astronomical odds that anyone else will ever:
1) Randomly think about your exact domain
2) Find it
3) Be willing to pay a substantial markup as opposed to just handregging an equally good domain.
4) On top of that you name needs to be better than all the competing names at the same pricepoint.

Domains like FoodInstitute, CookingInstitute and FastGolf are already challenging for domainers with points 2, 3 and 4 to work against.

But domains like YumInstitute** and particularly 9Time (and Simpli____) also face that extra first challenge. Then when you combine that very very significant obstacle with the 3 others, it's not so much that the domain will never sell .. but when compared to those other 3-obstacle domains, the math and statistics place the 4-obstacle domains significantly outside of the portfolio profitability zone.

Best case scenario a domain like 9Time would sell for $999 .. so effectively about a 100x over handreg. But while that sounds and looks good in theory, when you combine that with the likely sell-through rate of a 4-obstacle domain of around 0.25%/yr (probably MUCH less), a portfolio of equal domains will end each year with unavoidably big losses. YES .. you might (and will) occasionally get super lucky with one, but overall the math screams to steer very clear from 4-obstacle domains .. particularly when you consider that 3-obstacle portfolios are already challenging to make money with.


THE NUMBER ONE OBSTACLE facing new domainers is unfortunately the sad fact they need to keep their imaginations in check. It is good up to a point to find fun and creative names. But if those brand creations are too creative and original, more often than not they're focusing more on big-losses 4-obstacle domains rather than slightly-profitable 3-obstacle domains. Even after 3 years domaining I have to fight myself from reverting back to my former end-user perspective, where I think .. oh wow .. that would be an amazing brand! But unless the words are very common, then it's an unfortunate fact that too few potential buyers would think about it. So that when all the math of all the other factors are combined, they are simply really bad investments AS A DOMAINER (even if YES they might be good brands).

I do buy such domains on rare occasions, but that's not for the domainer in me, it's for the former owner of a big web community who sometimes dreams about building out a new web project (and then realises he never has the time .. lol).


VERY IMPORTANT ** YumInstitute ** - For the sake of this conversation I'm placing YumInstitute as a lower quality domain investment because it is significantly lower when compared to FoodInstitute and CookingInstitute .. but in actually fact, it's not all that bad. More middle zone .. the math would probably be fine as long as you got it around or under $30.

Wow! 1,783 words in your post directed at me Ategy.I didn't read your entire post as usual, but I did count your words I know you think that I'm bad for the domain industry because I "only" hand register domains I think are appropriate for business's, but you are simply and sadly wrong. I believe they call this place NamePros, and many of my peers and even other members here view me as a "Name Pro" regardless of how you try to spin me" I don't participate in Auctions or what is referred to as "Drop Catch" or NameCult whatever that is?...i just create names, and I'm sorry you're offended

 

[Ategy]

How do you know I'm wrong if you don't even read what I write? lol

I'm trying to tell you that your problem isn't "creating good names" (anybody can do that) .. your problem is getting domains that sell.

Good domains and domains that sell are NOT necessarily always the same thing. Many great names make for domains that are actually bad investments as a domainer. If you actually took a minute to behave like an adult and actually READ what people who are trying to help you are trying to say, then you might finally understand that one day!


ALSO ... those 1783 words were not directed specifically at you .. as always they are there for the benefit of the entire community .. most of whom I think are mature enough to read and assess the logic of what I or anyone else have to say.

 

[bmugford]

Wow! 1,783 words in your post directed at me Ategy.I didn't read your entire post as usual, but I did count your words I know you think that I'm bad for the domain industry because I "only" hand register domains I think are appropriate for business's, but you are simply and sadly wrong. I believe they call this place NamePros, and many of my peers and even other members here view me as a "Name Pro" regardless of how you try to spin me" I don't participate in Auctions or what is referred to as "Drop Catch" or NameCult whatever that is?...i just create names, and I'm sorry you're offended

Anyone can register marginal domains. It doesn't really take that much skill.
The skilled part is actually turning those into a profit, either via sales or some other business model.

Make Something Happen.

Brad

 

[Joe N]

other members here view me as a "Name Pro"

Can anyone vouch for this?

 

[ThatNameGuy]

Can anyone vouch for this?

Joe...last I checked NP has a means by which other members can provide "kudos" similar to the way you get kudos for lending/sharing your expertise. Are you telling me my kudos are fake and yours aren't?

btw, on the thread you started about creative emails, I tried to share some of my experience with email "timing", but it must have gotten hung up in a "spam" filter somewhere? You can email me personally if you'd like. Unlike many,I'm pretty transparent Sorry, I have to go...speaking of timing, guests arriving in 15 minutes.☺

 

[Joe N]

Joe...last I checked NP has a means by which other members can provide "kudos" similar to the way you get kudos for lending/sharing your expertise. Are you telling me my kudos are fake and yours aren't?

I'm sure all kudos are sincere, but they're only an indication of having liked what was said in a particular post. They're not meant to be taken as recommendations of anyone's professional qualifications.

 

[Internet.Domains]

That's why I keep saying what you're doing is business development and NOT domaining.

Business development is domaining and vice versa.

 

[Ategy]

Business development is domaining and vice versa.

No.

Domaining is buying and selling domains only for profit.

Business Development is actually starting/building/developing any kind of business such as restaurants, clothing stores, software development companies, golf schools, etc etc


A random name anyone comes up with most certainly could be good for any business.

However that same name as a domain might not be strong enough or have the proper elements needed to pass the mathematical probabilities of being part of a profitable portfolio.


Case in point, 9Time is a half-decent name for @ThatNameGuy's golf concept. But isn't necessarily strong enough to be invest-able as a domainer, because if it was part of a portfolio of equal quality names, that portfolio would never be profitable.

The two things are very very different.

 

[Internet.Domains]

No.

Domaining is buying and selling domains only for profit.

Business Development is actually starting/building/developing any kind of business such as restaurants, clothing stores, software development companies, golf schools, etc etc


A random name anyone comes up with most certainly could be good for any business.

However that same name as a domain might not be strong enough or have the proper elements needed to pass the mathematical probabilities of being part of a profitable portfolio.


Case in point, 9Time is a half-decent name for @ThatNameGuy's golf concept. But isn't necessarily strong enough to be invest-able as a domainer, because if it was part of a portfolio of equal quality names, that portfolio would never be profitable.

The two things are very very different.

I respectfully disagree. To say that domaining or domains are not part of business development is completely missing the point of the value domains bring. Domains are absolutely part of business development, that's what gives them value. Business development makes domains an asset. Assets bring value, assets bring business opportunity, assets bring business development.

If domains are not part of business development than what is the value of them?