Are domainers capable of being a bit daft? Or am I getting this wrong?

[domaino]

I'm not meaning to insult anyone, however I've been going back and forth with a domainer over the last week or so trying to purchase a domain - the domain is a jobsin[location].com domain.

When the initial response was made, the domainer quotes a "realistic" (his words) figure of £20k. After a bit of back and forth and then my withdrawing from the bidding process, the sale price eventually went down to £4k (I'm not sure how that happened, either I'm really good at negotiating or I'm working in a rather stange business environment here where someone is simply trying to "get what they can get").

I did some initial research and I found quite a few local domains which are almost identical to the domain in questions i.e. jobsinbristol.com sold for around $1,500, jobsinlondon.net sold for £500, jobsinmanchester.co.uk sold for £1,200 - I would have thought that based on this, and based on the fact the location in questions is a similar size and near equal exact match search volume total as the above noted domains, that my offer of £2,000 would have been considered more than reasonable?

I guess my point is that I don't get "domainers" - the marketplace I'm buying in is relatively small i.e. while there are tons and tons of national job boards, there are very few prominent local options so the market is relatively small, surely he should be looking at the offer and thinking: "yeah, that's more than fair".

The whole process has left me a bit miffed, it's not like any business transaction I've ever conducted (and I've done a lot of this before, I own just short of 300 domains) - for his asking price to go from £20k to £4k and for my to offer double the market value of VERY similar domains (with the same extension and exact match search volume, and with other options open to us in the marketplace should this one fall through i.e. it's not like there's a massive case of short supply) and still have it refused, seems strange.

Thoughts?

 

[equity78]

I don't think any of the names you mentioned are similar, Jobsin.com is far better than a .net or cctld imo.

Plus the fact the name could be used for a much wider scope, I understand your scope is more focused on a smaller market.

I would say that for just about any name there is always an alternative, how much the actual name means to the buyer matters most. If you want to be named Mango.com then you need to pay up for Mango.com of course you could get creative and go with something like Blue Mango, there is a new frozen yogurt place around me that I am not sure if its a big brand, but its called Red Mango.

There are never short supplies when someone uses some creativity. Again it comes down to how much that pure generic .com means to the buyer, after that its about the business behind the name.

Certainly the first part was domainer 101, throw out a high number, he may have been lowballed a lot and just through that out there, or maybe he did not want to sell. I talk to guys all the time who have a domain, that they want to keep, its only for sale at a ridiculous price, so they throw out a high number figuring there will be no sale.

4,000 GBP does not seem outrageous but if you wait him out he may come to your 2,000 GBP, I would just say that the choices of a short 6 letter.com with the word Jobs in it is in shorter supply than bringing in a long tail keyword.

 

[domaino]

I don't think any of the names you mentioned are similar, Jobsin.com is far better than a .net or cctld imo.

Plus the fact the name could be used for a much wider scope, I understand your scope is more focused on a smaller market.

I would say that for just about any name there is always an alternative, how much the actual name means to the buyer matters most. If you want to be named Mango.com then you need to pay up for Mango.com of course you could get creative and go with something like Blue Mango, there is a new frozen yogurt place around me that I am not sure if its a big brand, but its called Red Mango.

There are never short supplies when someone uses some creativity. Again it comes down to how much that pure generic .com means to the buyer, after that its about the business behind the name.

Certainly the first part was domainer 101, throw out a high number, he may have been lowballed a lot and just through that out there, or maybe he did not want to sell. I talk to guys all the time who have a domain, that they want to keep, its only for sale at a ridiculous price, so they throw out a high number figuring there will be no sale.

4,000 GBP does not seem outrageous but if you wait him out he may come to your 2,000 GBP, I would just say that the choices of a short 6 letter.com with the word Jobs in it is in shorter supply than bringing in a long tail keyword.

Thanks for your reply equity78, appreciated - from the relatively few occasions I have tried to sell a domain, I get that lowballing is a bit of an issue; I think that coming in THAT high makes the buyer look a bit daft though, maybe around £8k would have garnered a bit more respect from my side.

With regards to the domains, jobsinbristol.com is pretty much identical - the domain is obviously a UK based city (as it the domain I'm after), and it went for $1,500, about £964; I'm offering £2,000, as a ceiling price. The location I'm after is broadly the same size and the same total number of exact match searches.

I take the point about what it being worth to the seller (and buyer) as well, maybe we've just got a bit unlucky this time round in terms of who owns the domain, but like I say, when we have done this before, there's been very few issues in terms of basing prices on market value (rather than the sellers perceived value).

Anyway, thanks for the feedback - I guess we will just opt for one of the other options, or go down the branded route.

 

[equity78]

Oh I read this wrong Domaino, I thought you were trying to acquire Jobsin.com I read too fast and did not see the location part, thought you were comparing that to the longer names.

Oh I agree then you can easily pick another route and 20,000 GBP seems a little too high unless he really never wanted to sell.

 

[domaino]

Oh I read this wrong Domaino, I thought you were trying to acquire Jobsin.com I read too fast and did not see the location part, thought you were comparing that to the longer names.

Oh I agree then you can easily pick another route and 20,000 GBP seems a little too high unless he really never wanted to sell.

No worries, thanks - that said, I think even jobsin.com went for $1,000 on Sedo in 2010; again, about £1,400 less than I'm offering.

To be honest, it's not exactly the greatest sum of money ever he's asking, I think more than anything it's just the principle of it i.e. being asked to pay 4x what other sellers have sold for.

Seems to me he's missed a few of the basic lessons of selling:

1. Get the buyer to trust you.
2. Understand your buyer.
3. Make him think he's got a great deal.

But, ah well - onwards and upwards.

 

[equity78]

Good luck with the project.

 

[lennco]

Are domainers capable of being a bit daft? Or am I getting this wrong?

Yes!
Of course we are all a bit Daft.
Every domainer alive at one time or another was or is a bit daft, also selfish, greedy, delusional, and some even believe they know it all (you know who you are)

Every domainer regardless how successful they may be, at least once asked way too much money for a domain, and/or didnt ask for enough money for a domain that they sold, also sold junk to someone else, and have regged worthless domains.

I have asked too much for some and have left money on the table with others.

Domaining is just a wacky business that is perfect for wacky people.....aka: Domainers :P

 

[Kate]

There are so many ways to look at it.
First, domainers try to get the best price for their domains, but often they are unrealistic.

Domain names are unique, like a piece of art. So it's not like any other business. The fact that similar domains have sold for a certain price range serves to establish some sort of market, but the buyer doesn't have to abide by common, observed values.

At the end of day, domains are worth what an end user is willing to pay. Domainers can ask anything for their domain but until a sale is made it's wishful thinking.
I know this is frustrating but I still think end users are in a better position because they have the money and usually, alternatives are available to them. That's why the vast majority of domains hoarded for sale will never sell and it's not for lack of end users. They just won't play the game unless they absolutely desperately must have the domain.

 

[lennco]

Well said sdsinc :tu:

 

[domaino]

Domain names are unique, like a piece of art. So it's not like any other business. The fact that similar domains have sold for a certain price range serves to establish some sort of market, but the buyer doesn't have to abide by common, observed values.

Thanks for the contribution, sdsinc.

While I absolutely get what you're saying, that type of philosophy, which I know is common, just makes me as a buyer feel more than a bit nervous.

No matter what industry you are in, you have to accept one undeniable fact: buyers know a lot less than you. In order to to sell anything, a buyer has to have some means to be able to value the acquisition - even when you go out and buy "art" i.e.a painting, you base the valuation on the back of other pieces of artwork which have sold in the past. You don't blindly state a figure as some, less experienced. domainers seem to do - IMO, it gives the industry a bad name; it's erratic and unprofessional to not have a market determined value that buyers can work with.

As a buyer, you 100% need a reference point, "art", in a business context, doesn't really come close to cutting it.

I could same the same about SEO: "I have a feeling that this will work". However, that doesn't come close to cutting it, I need to back it up with something. I need to put a realistic price on the delivery otherwise my employees don't get paid at the end of the month and I don't make any money. Same goes for web dev and design.

Considering anything as "art" in a business context is quite dangerous IMO - it's probably why, as you've identified above sdsinc, a lot of domainers fail to sell anything. It seems to me "art" is merely a euphemism for "I have an emotional attachment to my domain" and in any business context, emotion (as opposed to reality), is nine time out of ten, best avoided.

 

[GiftedDomains]

The reason why you get those ridiculous prices is because

1) This 'business' has almost no rules, no guidelines, no fundamentals, no elementary laws.
2) Anyone can be your domain seller ('domainer'). He can be a serious businessman, a 14 years old kid using Dad's laptop, a rich collector who doesn't care if you buy or not, a greedy but poor moron, etc. etc. .. Its just too easy to register/buy a domain and offer it for sale. Anyone can do it.
3) The idiotic strategy to price the domain based on the knowledge about the buyer (if buyer is rich or a big company or uses unwise or gullible negotiation tactics, price can increase dramatically)

All these points make the domain business and domainers basically totally untrustworthy in the eyes of others. But i don't think this will change.

Now as a buyer, you have to use the same tactics domainers use to get an acceptable price.

A $3.000 offer for JobsInLocation.com is more than reasonable.

There are thousands of cities and countries and only few JobsInLocation.coms were sold.
And your $3.000 offer is one of the best ones.
The most expensive one i could find was JobsInFlorida.com for $3.750 back in 2011.

I can't guaranty anything, but i am pretty sure your seller will accept your 2.000 pounds offer if you just ignore him for few days or 2 weeks (like most do).
Someone who decreases his price from 20.000 to 4.000 after a week, will even sell for 1.000.

I guess your mistake was to start with 2,000 (not sure if you did that, but if so, that was a mistake).
If you had started with 300 or 500, you probably would already have bought the domain for 2.000 or less.
Domainers expect buyers to start with low offers, so the seller probably thought you have much more to spend than 2.000 and that 2.000 is just your starting point testing the waters, thats why he tried 20.000, then got scared that you would dissapear and offered 4.000.
Now scare him a bit more and buy for 2.000

 

[Kate]

When you think of it, the domain market is like a souq.
Items are overpriced, because it is expected that the potential buyer will bargain hard to drive the price down.
From the POV of the seller, you are not going to receive what you don't ask.

 

[GiftedDomains]

From the POV of the seller, you are not going to receive what you don't ask.

yep, best strategy at souqs is to walk away anyway :D

 

[domaino]

All these points make the domain business and domainers basically totally untrustworthy in the eyes of others. But i don't think this will change.

Thanks for your advice, GiftedDomains.

With regards to the point above, I think in some way the industry seems to miss a bit of thought leadership or best practice guidance - whereas with other internet industries you've got brands which standout right at the top of the tree i.e. SEO-wise you've got Rand Fishkin, Bill Slawski, Eric Enge, Danny Sullivan, The Distilled Brothers etc, in the domaining world I haven't really seen much of that.

You've obviously got the early pioneers i.e. Frank Schilling and the main resources like larger forums i.e. this and another forum which I obviously won't mention here (despite the fact you all obviously know what it is), DN Journal etc, Elliot's Blog, Domain Name Wire and so on, there still seems to be a lack of standout leadership, but maybe that's down to my naivety.

It also seems very ground-up and scattered, if that makes sense? There's not much collective thinking and the more prosperous or knowledgeable domainers seem to keep to themselves.

The SEO industry, rightly or wrongly, typically follows the lead of thought leaders - not necessarily because it's the right way to do things, but because the thought leaders are typically in the best position to determine the direction of public thought; it also helps build public awareness and keeps everyone on track.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of that going on, which again perhaps contributes to the points you made above.

 

[Kate]

GD said it well, anybody can be a domain trader. There are no exams, no qualifications. The domain industry is lacking in professionalism.
That's also why there are so many spammers in this 'industry'.

SEOers used to have a bad reputation too, things have improved and it's now recognized as a legitimate trade. But SEOers are service providers and it is in their interest that the industry presents a clean image.

On the other hand domainers are not service providers, they are more like stock traders, they speculate for their own benefit but they are not providing a service or adding any particular added value. They just happen to own something that somebody else might want.

This business is quite specific, it's sometimes compared to real estate but domains don't have a set, liquid value unlike real estate. It's more like unique pieces of art but the domain business is unregulated, this is another difference. Domaining is a very small industry too. But it cannot be like any other business. The usual expectations and prejudices have to be set aside.

Make an offer you deem reasonable (that you can recoup) and stick to your guns. You have the upper hand.

 

[GiftedDomains]

Also one problem with 'leaders', 'pioneers', 'gurus', 'kings' ... or whatever you want to call them is that sometimes i feel like their recommendations, guidance, etc. is sometimes biased and highly influenced based on their own domaining strategy. (let say you want to invest big in new gTlds and make some fast cash,,,, you praise the new gTlds....or you only have .coms since years and don't want them to lose value,,,, then vice versa , etc. etc.). Totally independent sources are actually quite rare.

 

[alien51]

To summarize it all: Trying to make sense of Domainers, is a pointless exercise. Don't drag your thoughts on this for so long. As has been said, and based on your join date here at Namepros in 2004, you should have realized by now that any creature in this planet can become a Domainer regardless of intellectual capacity or moral ethics. So why you expect every single one of them to comply to a certain domaining standard, is a bit asking for the moon (and anti-capitalism).

So i think moving forward, just like in boxing, the first few rounds of negotiations or chit-chats are reserved for "sizing" each other up. Trying to gauge whether you are dealing with a moron seller, or a naive buyer. Once you have marked your ground, and the transaction won't move, then just leave it as it is and find something else.

 

[Name Trader]

@domaino - I have just one question for you. Why do you want the JobsInCity.com and not the JobsInCity.co.uk? I would have thought the latter would have been much more appropriate for a UK business.

 

[domaino]

@domaino - I have just one question for you. Why do you want the JobsInCity.com and not the JobsInCity.co.uk? I would have thought the latter would have been much more appropriate for a UK business.

Hey Stub,

Mainly because our largest competitor - who already knows all about us due to the fact we've already set up a different location site - owns it (he's got an extensive network, waaayyyyy bigger than our pesky little one site). He's doing nothing with it, he just doesn't want anyone else to have it (hence my frustration )

We would definitely go for it otherwise, he only bought it for a small amount - I guess we could contact him covertly but really, due to the fact one of our account managers already approached him directly (she didn't know who she was approaching when I asked her to get in touch, in fact neither did I because I didn't check the WHOIS), he'd probably be wise to it.

Way of the world, unfortunately.

 

[Name Trader]

OK. I see. But then I think you are probably offering too much for the .com. But I understand... what can you do? So it does seem the seller kinda has you over a barrel, unless you have an alternative, like JobsInCounty perhaps?