discuss A world without our police is absolutely crazy. Take a look at this powerful video...

[mitch007]

Yes, take a breath and consider the alternatives...

What do you think?

 

[TestCase]

I rarely see police, and I rarely see crime. I dont think people are good because of police.

I thought you lived in LA, am I wrong?

If you do, when I lived there 20+ years ago, I'm not sure two months past when I didn't personally see or experience some sort of criminal activity and I always saw police - plus I lived and worked in some fairly respectable neighborhoods.

And if you're not in LA, well never mind...

 

[.X.]

I think a lot of Police are going to quit soon, violent criminals in the USA is crazy high numbers, each cop has to deal with them 5 day’s a week while making their living, while it’s ideal to the criminal element to defund and oppress the police as much as possible the victims of crime pay the price for it.

a way to high percentage of lawlessness happens in the US on a daily basis leaving many victims of their crimes.

when a person resist arrest, tries to police gear away from them, punches them in the face, kicks them in the nuts and ect, the police have to take control of the subject,

people that claim excessive force by police that have to use force to apprehend and secure a person due to resistance is a weekly necessary I would think, defiance of law is huge problem in the US.

Their is excessive force used in some cases ,and that should not be swept under the rug or tolerated, at the same time, there are criminals who claim to become victims of police at which point the whole reason the police even had to arrest, use force or even shoot them turns them into a helpless victim by video footage shown to the public. The police were called because a crime is being committed in most cases, they don’t just decide to stop and beat the shit out of some one or shoot them.


America’s society is becoming more lawless and less accountable, this causing citizens to have to carry firearms to protect themselves as well as police their own neighborhoods.

There are cases of police brutality, unjustified homicide, there are some bad cops, and these things need to be taken care of immediately, but the amount of lawlessness and criminals supersede the bad cops by an incredibly large number in the USA

Back The Blue , live in peace

 

[Recons.Com]

Camden has a long way to go. It still has one of the highest murder rates in New Jersey — and a fair share of sceptics. Eugene O’Donnell, a criminology professor at John Jay College in New York City and former NYPD officer, has called for Camden to produce more information that would help people gauge the efficacy of their reforms. He wants to see numbers to show how many crimes are solved and evidence to show that the recorded crime drops are not a result of the public simply reporting fewer crimes. “I think it’s mostly PR,” said Mr O’Donnell. “I have tons of questions for the chief that I have not seen answered, and I’d be the first to put my hand up and say I’m wrong if they could show evidence that they actually do police work that solves problems.”

A piece from an FT.com article.



From reading a bit about it it just sounds like they replaced the police with better trained police but how long untill the better trained police start taking bribes and corruption sets in again?

Did that Eugene guy explain why public would be under reporting serious crimes by 40%? Maybe, John Jay College needs to do the same with their faculty and start from the scratch.

Camden did 2 things: fired all and restarted, as having the same people and new policies will have zero effect; introduced completely new way of policing where the cops become a part of community, from introducing themselves door to door to picnics etc. Separately, none of those 2 would work.

Probably changed the KPIs too, instead of rewarding the arrests, and drugs removed etc., other criteria may have been introduced (an assumption here). Regardless, 40% down for serious crimes (even if there is still a lot left, but that comes with being poor, undereducated etc.) is very remarkable.

 

[Recons.Com]

Here is another fact:

many police departments won't hire anyone with IQ above average. This is ridiculous yet the court upheld their right to do it, as the standard is applied to all, so no discrimination (wtf?!!!).

If a company says "no blacks" (or "no whites"), and applies the standard to everyone that is still discrimination, but US court system is becoming a joke.

You'd think for dealing with complex split second decision situations, high stress, figuring out crime etc. you'd want people with high IQ, at least some in your force, but no, they are barred from joining.

 

[D Haynes]

Did that Eugene guy explain why public would be under reporting serious crimes by 40%? Maybe, John Jay College needs to do the same with their faculty and start from the scratch.

Camden did 2 things: fired all and restarted, as having the same people and new policies will have zero effect; introduced completely new way of policing where the cops become a part of community, from introducing themselves door to door to picnics etc. Separately, none of those 2 would work.

Probably changed the KPIs too, instead of rewarding the arrests, and drugs removed etc., other criteria may have been introduced (an assumption here). Regardless, 40% down for serious crimes (even if there is still a lot left, but that comes with being poor, undereducated etc.) is very remarkable.

Again this is kind of how the police used to be here in the UK. Everyone knew the names of the local "bobbies on the beat" and policing was a lot more personal. What spelled the end of that kind of policing was budget cuts. There just isn't the money to continue like that.

Here is another fact:

many police departments won't hire anyone with IQ above average. This is ridiculous yet the court upheld their right to do it, as the standard is applied to all, so no discrimination (wtf?!!!).

If a company says "no blacks" (or "no whites"), and applies the standard to everyone that is still discrimination, but US court system is becoming a joke.

You'd think for dealing with complex split second decision situations, high stress, figuring out crime etc. you'd want people with high IQ, at least some in your force, but no, they are barred from joining.

I agree with these and most of the other points you make (although I doubt many people with above average IQ would want to be a police officer due to the high amount of danger and low pay). I just dont see how scrapping the police and starting again can be facilitated country wide. I'm sure they probably struggle to hire enough of the right candidates as it is let alone if they got rid of everyone and started again.

 

[Recons.Com]

Again this is kind of how the police used to be here in the UK. Everyone knew the names of the local "bobbies on the beat" and policing was a lot more personal. What spelled the end of that kind of policing was budget cuts. There just isn't the money to continue like that.

I agree with these and most of the other points you make (although I doubt many people with above average IQ would want to be a police officer due to the high amount of danger and low pay). I just dont see how scrapping the police and starting again can be facilitated country wide. I'm sure they probably struggle to hire enough of the right candidates as it is let alone if they got rid of everyone and started again.

Actually, if done right, that kind of policing should require less. When people aren't scared of police, they can be part of solution and help with patrolling, informing, reporting etc. More transparency and trust = less resources needed.

 

[Silentptnr]

I thought you lived in LA, am I wrong?

If you do, when I lived there 20+ years ago, I'm not sure two months past when I didn't personally see or experience some sort of criminal activity and I always saw police - plus I lived and worked in some fairly respectable neighborhoods.

And if you're not in LA, well never mind...

Yes, not in the city of LA, but I am in the County of LA. Suburbs of the San Fernando Valley. Never see actual crime. I hear sirens from time to time, could be ambulatory. See patrol cars occasionally.

 

[Silentptnr]

I rarely see police either but that's mainly because they are vastly understaffed, underpaid, underfunded and undertrained. I see a lot of crime.

I don't think people are good because of police either but I think some people are bad because of a lack of them.

I want to know that when someone is bad I can ring the police and I'll be offered a certain amount of safety.

I'd rather have the police and not need them than need them and not have them.

I think you refer to Good police. I like good police. I want bad police fired, removed, and prosecuted if they commit any crime. We need to be super tough on bad cops. Throw the book at them. Then maybe they will think twice. I don't accept lack of training as an excuse.

I once had a gardener that came each week to do my yards. Every friggin week, my dog would get out cause they wouldn't properly lock the front gate. I told the gardener a couple of times and even wrote on the bill, don't let the dog out. No improvement
Finally, I told my wife, I'm gonna fire that gardener if the dog gets out again. She says no, they don't speak english. So instead, I put a big note on the gate..."if the dog gets out again, you're fired". The dog never got out again. They understood that.

My point is, cops gotta feel like if they do wrong, there are very, very serious consequences. They must understand that their job involves danger. They must understand that there is a higher than normal likelihood that they will die on their job.

They must understand that if they break a rule, or hurt an innocent person, they will lose their job, possibly their retirement, and possibly their freedom. Then, suddenly they understand.

 

[Recons.Com]

I think you refer to Good police. I like good police. I want bad police fired, removed, and prosecuted if they commit any crime. We need to be super tough on bad cops. Throw the book at them. Then maybe they will think twice. I don't accept lack of training as an excuse.

I once had a gardener that came each week to do my yards. Every friggin week, my dog would get out cause they wouldn't properly lock the front gate. I told the gardener a couple of times and even wrote on the bill, don't let the dog out. No improvement
Finally, I told my wife, I'm gonna fire that gardener if the dog gets out again. She says no, they don't speak english. So instead, I put a big note on the gate..."if the dog gets out again, you're fired". The dog never got out again. They understood that.

My point is, cops gotta feel like if they do wrong, there are very, very serious consequences. They must understand that their job involves danger. They must understand that there is a higher than normal likelihood that they will die on their job.

They must understand that if they break a rule, or hurt an innocent person, they will lose their job, possibly their retirement, and possibly their freedom. Then, suddenly they understand.

It is the opposite in the US. Police are trained not even to shoot to demobilize the thread, they are trained to shoot to kill, they aim at vital organs. And if 5 of them shoot a guy who had a fork in his hands, all they have to do is claim that they were scared for their lives.

 

[Silentptnr]

It is the opposite in the US. Police are trained not even to shoot to demobilize the thread, they are trained to shoot to kill, they aim at vital organs. And if 5 of them shoot a guy who had a fork in his hands, all they have to do is claim that they were scared for their lives.

Yet, imagine a citizen shoots a cop in fear of losing their life.

 

[Recons.Com]

Yet, imagine a citizen shoots a cop in fear of losing their life.

It is ridiculous excuse used in every case. The police lady who shot the guy in his apartment, allegedly thinking it is hers, shot him out of fear for her life, she claimed. Those 4 policemen sitting on Floyd's neck and back for about 10 minutes, definitely feared for their lives. The guy shot in Atlanta, when he took the taser and ran away, the policemen chasing him feared for their lives...

 

[TestCase]

Yes, not in the city of LA, but I am in the County of LA. Suburbs of the San Fernando Valley. Never see actual crime. I hear sirens from time to time, could be ambulatory. See patrol cars occasionally.

You must not live very close to Pacoima then, LOL... (I have a friend that is moving her mother out of that area this week.)

Even living in the Valley, I would have expected you to encountered a fair amount of police activity in the course of a year. My how things must have changed since I was there.

 

[Silentptnr]

You must not live very close to Pacoima then, LOL... (I have a friend that is moving her mother out of that area this week.)

Even living in the Valley, I would have expected you to encountered a fair amount of police activity in the course of a year. My how things must have changed since I was there.

You prompted me to check some crime rates. I'm surprised about waco, tx.

With a crime rate of 43 per one thousand residents, Waco has one of the highest crime rates in America compared to all communities of all sizes - from the smallest towns to the very largest cities. One's chance of becoming a victim of either violent or property crime here is one in 23.

Pacoima has no where near that....
http://maps.latimes.com/neighborhoods/neighborhood/pacoima/crime/

Not alot of crime here that I see.

 

[Silentptnr]

You must not live very close to Pacoima then, LOL... (I have a friend that is moving her mother out of that area this week.)

Even living in the Valley, I would have expected you to encountered a fair amount of police activity in the course of a year. My how things must have changed since I was there.

Of the entire US, California has only one city (Oakland) in the top 25 most dangerous cities in the US.

 

[TestCase]

You prompted me to check some crime rates. I'm surprised about waco, tx.

With a crime rate of 43 per one thousand residents, Waco has one of the highest crime rates in America compared to all communities of all sizes - from the smallest towns to the very largest cities. One's chance of becoming a victim of either violent or property crime here is one in 23.

Pacoima has no where near that....
http://maps.latimes.com/neighborhoods/neighborhood/pacoima/crime/

Not alot of crime here that I see.

I owe an apology to Pacoima then!

I used Pacoima because it is in the SFV and my friend has always spoken of it in less than glowing terms. Most of my experience in the valley is from Encino westward to Thousand Oaks.

I saw enough bad stuff happen on and around Ventura Blvd to make me not want to live there even though there were some very nice areas. I lived mostly in the South Bay beach cities.

My sincerest apologies Pacoima!

 

[Silentptnr]

I owe an apology to Pacoima then!

I used Pacoima because it is in the SFV and my friend has always spoken of it in less than glowing terms. Most of my experience in the valley is from Encino westward to Thousand Oaks.

I saw enough bad stuff happen on and around Ventura Blvd to make me not want to live there even though there were some very nice areas. I lived mostly in the South Bay beach cities.

My sincerest apologies Pacoima!

I wouldn't like living in Pacoima. Not saying it's nice. Just don't actually witness much crime. I do work a lot though.

 

[ivey]

Lets stop the emotional misleading..blaa blaa..... The police will always be here..the world would be in havoc. I researched the defunding talk that i've heard and it's not about removing the police.. It's mostly about moving funds for other things. The police will have funds to police etc. But Maybe someone else can better handle someone who is mentally ill rather than shoot them. One mentally ill man known in the neighborhood in Harlem NY, was standing on the fire escape just a bit higher than the officers on the ground and they tasered him..ofcourse he fell right on his head because he had no control with electricity flowing through his body and he died.

That's what defunding is about. Some department rebuild too.

lets not scare people.. about a world without police. That's deceitful and misleading people.

 

[g0kh4n]

ITT people who haven't done their research and think "defund the police" is about abolishing the police force entirely.

Go educate yourselves first. I'll give you a tl;dr. Defunding the police is about changing the system so that the police is only used for violent crimes. Non-violent crimes should be attended to by social workers who are properly trained on such scenarios. No reason to fuckin' spend hundreds of millions to make the cops feel like RoboCop with their goddamn riot gear and warfare equipment. Police is not the military, and the public is not the enemy. I'm done being okay with my goddamn tax dollars turning into the tools of racist, power-tripping pieces of shit who get a rise out of harassing and killing minorities because they know their lil' union is gonna cover their ass regardless.

 

[D Haynes]

I think you refer to Good police. I like good police. I want bad police fired, removed, and prosecuted if they commit any crime. We need to be super tough on bad cops. Throw the book at them. Then maybe they will think twice. I don't accept lack of training as an excuse.

I once had a gardener that came each week to do my yards. Every friggin week, my dog would get out cause they wouldn't properly lock the front gate. I told the gardener a couple of times and even wrote on the bill, don't let the dog out. No improvement
Finally, I told my wife, I'm gonna fire that gardener if the dog gets out again. She says no, they don't speak english. So instead, I put a big note on the gate..."if the dog gets out again, you're fired". The dog never got out again. They understood that.

My point is, cops gotta feel like if they do wrong, there are very, very serious consequences. They must understand that their job involves danger. They must understand that there is a higher than normal likelihood that they will die on their job.

They must understand that if they break a rule, or hurt an innocent person, they will lose their job, possibly their retirement, and possibly their freedom. Then, suddenly they understand.

I agree with all you say here so long as the officers aren't so scared of losing their jobs that they can't do the job properly. It has to be that the police are part of and feel part of the community and not that they are the enemy. I understand that the current situation is a lot of their own making in the US and changes need to be made on all sides (maybe some radical) but I think we can all agree that a police force will always be needed in some form or another.

 

[TestCase]

A question for those that feel cops are too aggressive in their behavior.

In a situation where an individual does not comply with a law enforcement officer's request/order (legal or not), and/or attempts to flee, and/or get's in to a physical struggle with them, what should the police do, just let them go?

 

[The Durfer]

just another generation of "I fought the law, and the law won."")

 

[The Durfer]

for some reason a long time ago in a galaxy far far away, someone thought sayings were suppose to be passed down. Maybe there is some kind of alien coding in the sayings we embed in our children. Who knows.

 

[noneisnone]

A corrupt police officer has caused some to think that the police force need to be removed and that they are the enemy shallow thinking if you ask me.

from one extreme to another you go which is causing you to lose focus on the real issue and provide realistic solutions.

the video is nice and all but the fact that there is a need to manipulate people emotions to convince them that they need the cops is just odd it goes to show the American mindset in 2020

 

[D Haynes]

An interesting listen is the newest Joe Rogan podcast with Jocko Wilink. The first 30 mins or so touches on this subject.

 

[The Durfer]

A corrupt police officer has caused some to think that the police force need to be removed and that they are the enemy shallow thinking if you ask me.

from one extreme to another you go which is causing you to lose focus on the real issue and provide realistic solutions.

the video is nice and all but the fact that there is a need to manipulate people emotions to convince them that they need the cops is just odd it goes to show the American mindset in 2020

i agree, one bad apple is not what all police officers are. Take the 1920s with al capone and chicago pd, they did the same thing, and the FBI cleared it up. Trump doesnt like the FBI so there is another wall in why this mightve happened.