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8Chan & Epik

Located in Domain Registrar Reviews, started by MapleDots, Aug 5, 2019

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  1. Paul

    Paul CTO, NamePros CTO VIP

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    The peering agreement in question only affects sites hosted at Cloudflare; Cloudflare is unable to interfere with sites hosted at Vultr unless they are also Cloudflare customers. Basically, it means that if you host your website with Vultr and you also want to use Cloudflare as your CDN, your bandwidth will be free. It has no impact beyond that. Anything else won't be routed through Cloudflare.
     
    The views expressed on this page by users and staff are their own, not those of NamePros.
  2. Internet.Domains

    Internet.Domains Account Closed (Requested) VIP

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    The alliance was spearheaded by Cloudfare. Cloudfare distributes the benefits that Vultr utilizes through the alliance. Cloudfare is at the top of the tree.
     
  3. Paul

    Paul CTO, NamePros CTO VIP

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    That's not how it works. The traffic never travels through Cloudflare; Cloudflare has no say in the matter. Want a picture?
     
  4. Paul

    Paul CTO, NamePros CTO VIP

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    @Internet.Domains This is a simplification, but it's accurate enough in this context. In reality, there are more intermediary ISPs in both scenarios. BitMitigate's diagram looks different because they're not an AS (or, at least, they weren't last I checked).

    Basically, CBA just means example.com doesn't have to pay for bandwidth if they use Cloudflare because Vultr doesn't have to pay for bandwidth. If example.com doesn't use Cloudflare, then Cloudflare is completely out of the picture, including CBA.

    CBA only has an impact when example.com opts to use both Cloudflare and a hosting provider that participates in CBA.

    Edit: Oops, found a mistake. Fixed and re-uploaded.

    upload_2019-8-6_20-43-28.png
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2019
  5. frank-germany

    frank-germany domainer since 2001 / musician VIP

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    @Rob Monster is not a fan of Cloudflare

    I still don't understand exactly why

    I use cloudflare on some domains
    I have no issues using them

    namepros uses cloudflare too
    as far as I noticed

    can't be THAT bad, isn't it?
     
  6. frank-germany

    frank-germany domainer since 2001 / musician VIP

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    in my view, it's not such a stroke of genius
    to host separate web entities
    with separate hosting companies
     
  7. NameDeck

    NameDeck Top Contributor VIP

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    It isn't. You'd be surprised how many hosting companies do host their own websites on the same nodes clients are on though.
     
  8. NameDeck

    NameDeck Top Contributor VIP

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    They're not bad. They ain't special either unless you have a business subscription and let's face it. Most don't.

    Their DDOS protection works but when shit gets real you're on your own. Here's some (slightly biased) article
    https://tech.tiq.cc/2016/01/why-you-shouldnt-use-cloudflare/

    The reverse proxy is great and most use them to hide the origin ip of their server but that's nothing that can't be done in another way.

    I take my hat off for what they're doing as from a technical point of view it's a highly sophisticated setup. They push the use of IPV6 also but they certainly do have their own flaws.

    Most of the security/privacy issues is probably why Rob doesn't like them that much.
     
  9. frank-germany

    frank-germany domainer since 2001 / musician VIP

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    as far as I understand
    that's not the reason
    @Rob Monster doesn't like cloudflare

    when I recall rightly
    it has to do with black vans
     
  10. blank

    blank Top Contributor VIP

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    As far as I understand, epik as a registrar did not fail so there was nothing to recover from.
    I was referring to the the fast recovery of the other services they offer.
     
  11. oldtimer

    oldtimer Do some good for humanity and the environment VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    The problem here is those who abuse free speech to stoke violence through their political, religious, and racial beliefs and ideologies, if we as a society choose to solve our problems with violence rather than logic and compassion then all these violent tendencies will eventually emerge at a lager scale in the form of conflict and War. Well perhaps these are more serious and bigger issues that go beyond the scope of this forum and the domain Industry, but in the age of Internet domain names are at the heart of a lot of these issues as to whom should police the Internet to make sure that domain names are not used for websites that stoke violence or that promote illegal or immoral activities. If violence is chosen over logic and compassion I predict that we are going to see the start of Internet Blackouts in the near future which although might be a rare event at first, but will soon become a common part of our lives and that is surely going to affect everyone here. IMO
     
  12. Paul

    Paul CTO, NamePros CTO VIP

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    I got a good laugh out of that.

    As someone who's been following Cloudflare since its early days, I find this turn of events quite ironic. Cloudflare used to be regarded much like BitMitigate is today--in the public eye, it was often seen as a safe haven for controversial websites. This was because they refused to take down websites without due process. They've had a few scuffles with larger ISPs and even governments over the years who have wanted sites removed from Cloudflare.

    To the best of my knowledge, the Daily Stormer incident was the first time they gave into public pressure to remove a site. Cloudflare is currently attempting to expand their efforts in Australia and New Zealand, two countries which have been rather outspokenly in favor of requiring private companies like Cloudflare to censor content that traverses their platforms. This is entirely speculation--do not take it as fact--but I wouldn't be surprised if the removal of 8chan from their platform was at least partially motivated by their interest in appeasing their A/NZ audience.

    Cloudflare is more resilient to these pressures that most companies; this is only the second time they've given in. Most network operators of comparable size are much more eager to pass along a hot potato--hence Voxility's response. They don't want the bad press, so when they're called out in the media, they drop the offending website/company/platform/whatever. It's not so much an organized effort as it is an industry-wide weakness to bad press. (But isn't that to be expected?)

    To clarify, I'm making no judgment of the responses of each company here for the time being. While I'm knowledgeable enough to understand the technical side of these incidents, I don't have a clear understanding of the social implications yet.
     
  13. carob

    carob Top Contributor VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    Yes and at the time they were resisting and saying they were neutral, but then they booted DS and said the reason they did so was because DS were actively claiming that CF supported them, not just provided a service.

    That is why I posted the link here to CF's blog giving their reasons for this new boot - they are not claiming to be so neutral now, instead are saying somewhat vaguely that the issue is the rule of law. They do say in their blog that laws may have to change. You are probably right that there is business logic behind this.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2019
  14. Paul

    Paul CTO, NamePros CTO VIP

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    We all agree that violence is a problem, but there are few people who are qualified to understand both the social and technical implications of these issues well enough to truly come up with a solid solution--or even understand the consequences of the proposed solutions. I am certainly not among them, and I doubt that anyone else here is. In general, we're a forum of investors, not philosophers, sociologists, or networking engineers. If our debate strays too far from the portion of the issue most relevant to our industry, then we risk seeding misconceptions, spreading misinformation, and misrepresenting the issue--the exact behavior that is often criticized in these threads.

    It's significantly easier for us to grasp the consequences of these issues in the context of our industry. For example:
    • What does it mean for us if registrars are able to reject customers without due process? (This is the industry-specific manifestation of, "Should private companies be allowed to reject customers?")
    • Will this affect which registrars we trust?
    • Is the bad press associated with this incident likely to harm our industry as a whole?
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2019
  15. oldtimer

    oldtimer Do some good for humanity and the environment VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    I don’t believe that the registrars, hosting companies, or even the registries are qualified to police domains and websites as it eventually boils down to the preferences, biases, and agendas of one person in that company, I believe that its time to create a New Organization that can oversee the take down and discontinuation of domain names and websites, a new organization that is not associated with ICANN and that is completely neutral and unbiased. IMO
     
  16. frank-germany

    frank-germany domainer since 2001 / musician VIP

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    why can't a hosting company
    form their business after their belief system?


    we would end with

    Christ hosting
    Bible Hosting
    Muslim hosting
    Koran Hosting
    right-wing hosting
    left-wing hosting

    " we offer cheap reliable Pooddle Hosting "

    for domain registrars I tend to think
    it's just a character-number-combination
    translated into IP's
    so why should they care?


    but then they should strictly separate their offer
    between hosting and registrar
     
  17. oldtimer

    oldtimer Do some good for humanity and the environment VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    Its not anyone’s “belief system” that is the problem, the problem is when they want to force their beliefs on others and or who want to suppress or eliminate those who have a different “belief system” that is against their interest. We need a New Organization that is completely neutral and unbiased to police domain names and websites. IMO
     
  18. TCK

    TCK NameOptions.com VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    Some of the recent posts make it sound like hosting and infrastructure providers are censoring willy-nilly sites they don't agree with. This is absolute nonsense. We are talking about a few extreme hate sites that everyone agrees are a cesspool of hate.

    The loudest voice in a democracy is the wallet, unfortunately. I don't doubt there are other hate-filled sites accessed undetected through CloudFlare and Voxility servers, and many other hosts. However, when they gain notoriety, "embrace infamy", and get media attention, then they will be shut-down as well.

    A registrar/host may get free media exposure by giving such sites a platform, due to their notoriety, but in the long-term it is not a sustainable business policy. Most people still use their God-given moral code and conscience which dictates how they spend their money. So providers, in turn, need to think of their public image. Even if they are B2B, their clients are serving the general public.

    As far as free speech is concerned, I welcome you to tell me things I hate to hear but you don't have to use vulgar, dehumanizing and/or threatening language against my person, family, or race. That's why the sites in question only feed their own hate and ideology. They don't speak to anyone that doesn't agree with their POV, they shut everyone else off. They swim in their own hate. So giving them a platform will never open a door to a reasonable conversation or debate. That's a fallacy. Let them go underground because nothing good is going to come out if you give them a voice.
     
  19. frank-germany

    frank-germany domainer since 2001 / musician VIP

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    https://www.geekwire.com/2019/p-o-b...tle-area-company-tied-8chan-el-paso-shooting/


    QUOTE

    It’s been a tough week for Epik Inc., a web services provider in the Seattle region. First, the company lost access to its servers. Now, its physical mailbox.

    Sammamish, Wash.-based MailPost is booting Epik as a customer because of its ties to 8chan, a site implicated in the recent shooting in El Paso, Texas.

    Immediately before opening fire in a Walmart and killing 22 people, the suspected shooter posted a racist manifesto to 8chan, a site that often supports vitriolic discussions. 8chan’s network provider, Cloudflare, cut ties with the site, calling it “a cesspool of hate” in a statement. The move took 8chan offline and that’s when it sought out Epik.

    Previously: Seattle-area web services provider becomes haven for online extremism following El Paso shooting
    On several occasions, Epik has provided safe haven to far-right websites after other web services providers blacklisted them. Using Epik’s services, 8chan was able to briefly get back online before the company whose servers Epik rents pulled the plug. Epik is still scrambling to find alternative servers.

    Amid that search, Epik will now need to find a new PO box. MailPost owner Jamey Davis told GeekWire he emailed Epik founder Rob Monster on Tuesday, informing him he was no longer welcome as a customer.

    He’s promoting an atmosphere where people can post hate.
    “I just don’t believe in what he stands for,” Davis said. “He’s a big believer in free speech but I think he’s using it in the wrong way. He’s promoting an atmosphere where people can post hate, they can post racism, they can post these manifestos on these shootings … we just want to distance ourselves from it because it’s not something I believe in.”

    Davis noted that MailPost has become a hub for local businesses because Sammamish does not have a traditional post office. Epik became a customer in January, though Davis said he has never met Monster face-to-face. Asked whether Davis thought other companies would follow suit and disassociate with Epik, he said, “I hope so.”

    Monster did not immediately respond to GeekWire’s request to comment on the MailPost development. On Monday, he noted that Epik did not solicit 8chan’s business and said the company showed up unexpectedly as a customer.

    “We have also not made a definitive decision about whether to provide DDoS mitigation or Content Delivery services for them,” Monster said at the time. “We will evaluate this in the coming days.”

    QUOTE ENDS
     
  20. oldtimer

    oldtimer Do some good for humanity and the environment VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    That’s the whole point of this discussion, I don’t think that any one person or company should make this call, as I said We need to create a New Organization that is completely neutral and unbiased to police domain names and websites. IMO
     
  21. TCK

    TCK NameOptions.com VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    A company should have the right to decide what is best for their employees, clients, and investors. If no law is broken or human rights interfered with, this is the decision of the company directors. In most cases, businesses make the ethical call. If anyone feels they have been wronged in the decision, they can take legal action.
     
  22. JayT

    JayT Restricted (85-100%)

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    They can and will ban whoever they want. But that doesn't mean they exactly NEED to...I don't think these registrar should be held accountable for the content they host. No matter how 'famous' something seems to someone, another (the "registrar owner") may know nothing about what's going on for each domain, and they shouldn't have to know! That would be asking too much.

    It's a sad reality, but ALL content can't be policed by any one person or 'new agency' as being suggested, it just can't. There will be plenty more 'de-platforming', going forward. There's a great divide in fundamental ideals among almost everyone right now. You can't silence a group, by de-platforming, you only move them. The way to get rid of criminals is to put them in jail, put the crazies in mental inst. This isn't happening. In fact, a lot of criminals are being EMBRACED. It isn't the first time in history where being a criminal was embraced by so many neither.

    It's like, if you tell a lie enough, it becomes true. We live in a world that is beginning to believe that the loudest voice in the room is right, and it's flawed ideology...yet, the loudest voice belief is similar to the basis of democracy, and this is why the rift feels political.

    This whole post was just made to rip on epik for no good reason. This maple guy wants to be at this guys throat for some reason. He wants to be the loudest voice and will use anything to convince people epik is racist. People jump on the bandwagon, start suggesting that this persons or that job is to censor this crap. Well, it's everyone's job, but you don't get anything done with calling ppl racist-friendly (being racist isn't a crime, btw)! This thread was created to do this exact thing we are fighting now, a mis-placed provocation.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2019
  23. blank

    blank Top Contributor VIP

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    Yes - and make sure someone completely unbiased manages it. Maybe we can find someone here on NamePros ;)

    There is no 100% right or 100% wrong when it come to this just like there is no 100% good or 100% evil.

    ...and beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2019
  24. tonyk2000

    tonyk2000 Top Contributor VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    Organization is a legal entity, it should then be located somewhere. So it would be regulated by existing laws of some territory (country or state) to begin with. So, the question: where such an organization should be located? And how should it deal with cases where the website (domain or content) is illegal in one country, but perfectly legal in another country?
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2019
  25. AnthonyD

    AnthonyD Optimal Names VIP Gold Account

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    Humans - neutral and unbiased? Good luck, has never and will never happen. ;)
     

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