8Chan & Epik

[MapleDots]

Controversial web forum 8chan has moved its domain name to a new registrar after it was linked to at least one of the two mass shootings that occurred in the US over the weekend.

According to Whois records, it’s just jumped to racist-friendly Epik, having been registered at Tucows since 2003.

The switch appears to have happened in the last few hours. At time of writing, you’re going to get different results depending which Whois server you ping.

Some servers continue to report Tucows as the registrar of record, perhaps using cached data, but Epik’s result looks like this:

http://domainincite.com/24593-after-more-racist-shootings-take-one-guess-which-registrar-8chan-just-switched-to?

 

[TCK]

I think the concern many have is the effect of giving server space and bandwidth to hate speech sites will have on the providers' business decisions whether to fire Epik as a client.

 

[tonyk2000]

The article appears to make some serious technical based claims

This is very interesting. As a curiosity, I checked what connections Epik is using. Epik.com and customers area (registrar.epik.com) are with NJ-based NatCoWeb Corp. A great choice in fact. I'm a happy customer of one of their brands during 15+ years (non-domaining related things). I also had a pleasure to deal directly with their owner on various occasions, and something prompts me that he would probably not risk his business by allowing chans or daily stormer inside, even though his company will definitely be able to fight expected DDOS attacks and the like. Which means that the "registrar" part of Epik is 100% safe.
So the below is an expected outcome:
"What this all boils down to is that Epik itself only seems "up" because Epik—unlike 8chan and The Daily Stormer—isn't hosted on Epik at all." (quote end)

 

[TCK]

I also had a pleasure to deal directly with their owner on various occasions, and something prompts me that he would not risk his business by allowing chans or daily stormer inside, even though his company will definitely be able to fight expected DDOS attacks and the like. Which means that the "registrar" part of Epik is 100% safe.

NatCoWeb also uses CloudFlare as their network conduit, including for DDOS protection. And CF made their stance clear on 8chan and daily stormer, although they are allowing Gab to use their network so far. Not sure how that "means that the "registrar" part of Epik is 100% safe." What's the connection?

 

[frank-germany]

NatCoWeb also uses CloudFlare as their network conduit, including for DDOS protection. And CF made their stance clear on 8chan and daily stormer, although they are allowing Gab to use their network so far. Not sure how that "means that the "registrar" part of Epik is 100% safe." What's the connection?

when I recall rightly
@Rob Monster
is not necessarily a huge fan of Cloudflare

maybe now he is?

 

[tonyk2000]

Not sure how that "means that the "registrar" part of Epik is 100% safe." What's the connection?

A few pages before. It was discussed how epik-regged domains and epik.com as a registrar may (or may not) be affected.

 

[branding]

Just read up on this matter on this fine article : https://www.google.com/amp/s/techcr...kicked-off-its-own-host-just-hours-later/amp/


No matter where you stand on matters like this, the real concern should be that deplatforming people seems to become accepted amongst the bigger providers. This brings net neutrality in real danger.

 

[Chris Hydrick]

These opinions are my own and do not represent the opinions of NamePros. I do not have authority to represent NamePros on this matter. Edit/Additional disclaimer for more technical readers: Yes, I understand I've greatly simplified the technical points here. If your response to reading this is, "But BitMitigate doesn't even utilize anycast or have their own ASN!"--then this post isn't for you.

I would caution against using this as an opportunity to criticize BitMitigate from a technical standpoint. Developing your own infrastructure for a CDN is exorbitantly expensive; as far as I'm aware, no such public CDN exists. Cloudflare, perhaps the most popular public CDN at the moment, works much the same way: space is leased at various datacenters throughout the world. As a CDN grows, more points-of-presence are added, and with that comes more resilience to incidents such as this. A young, small CDN will typically be at the mercy of one or two providers. It's difficult to relay to someone unfamiliar with the technical side of the internet exactly what this means.

The danger here is that expecting a new CDN to be as resilient as a large, established CDN makes it difficult for new CDNs to enter the market. This stifles competition. Of course, if your priority is uptime, a new, small CDN is usually not an ideal choice, but that goes for any such CDN, not just BitMitigate.

A more relevant point here is that a single provider is not enough even for a small CDN; the risks are just too great. BitMitigate's response should include diversifying their infrastructure. This does not mean they would actually "own" their infrastructure; they would simply be utilizing a greater number of providers.

My understanding is that Epik acquired BitMitigate along with BitMitigate's existing infrastructure. Therefore, this point is incorrect:

...What this all boils down to is that Epik itself only seems "up" because Epik—unlike 8chan and The Daily Stormer—isn't hosted on Epik at all.

Unless something has changed, Epik's infrastructure is distinct from BitMitigate's. To say that Epik isn't hosted on Epik would be incorrect. "Hosting with Epik" does not mean "hosting with BitMitigate"--they are separate.

Wow, thank you very much for taking the time to provide your technical perspective!

 

[Rob Monster]

I think the concern many have is the effect of giving server space and bandwidth to hate speech sites will have on the providers' business decisions whether to fire Epik as a client.

TCK -- I was starting to like you but that is such a loser thing to say. My goodness.

 

[frank-germany]

“When we realized it was the same customer, it showed that the Daily Stormer was not an exception, these sites were facilitating this,” Sirbu explained. “If we asked them to remove it, it would be a repeat of history with the Daily Stormer. So on purpose we avoided using the same procedure. We realized that there is no way we were going somewhere good with this customer — we don’t want to have any association with 8chan, or hate speech.”

https://techcrunch.com/2019/08/05/8...was-kicked-off-its-own-host-just-hours-later/

for Epik.com I guess it would be smart
to be no longer associated with
this kind of traffic

 

[Embrand]

Even if Epik the registrar stays online, I wonder if this whole thing could have a negative effect on domain sales at Epik's marketplace.

Not least if we use Epik's sales landers, some potential buyers may remember Epik from the news and say "there is no way I am buying a domain from this company!"

 

[Rob Monster]

Epik's BitMitigate service has returned to normal.

As for 8chan, we have elected not to route them. A press release will be issued shortly. Although we have the technical wherewithal to do so, there is an acceptable range for free speech, and we believe 8Chan is outside of that range, largely due to the anonymous nature of the site but also the lack of adequate moderation personnel.

As for the Epik brand, I believe this event shows that we do absolutely have world class technology and that we are governed by values, and prepared to enforce a standard based on specific review of specific circumstances rather than arbitrarily banning without discernment and/or due process.

 

[branding]

Epik's BitMitigate service has returned to normal.

As for 8chan, we have elected not to route them. A press release will be issued shortly. Although we have the technical wherewithal to do so, there is an acceptable range for free speech, and we believe 8Chan is outside of that range, largely due to the anonymous nature of the site but also the lack of adequate moderation personnel.

As for the Epik brand, I believe this decision shows that we have world class technology and that we are governed by values, and prepared to enforce a standard based on specific review of specific circumstances rather than arbitrarily banning without discernment and/or due process.

Awaiting the press release... Things are getting interesting.

 

[tonyk2000]

Even if Epik the registrar stays online, I wonder if this whole thing could have a negative effect on domain sales at Epik's marketplace.

Not least if we use Epik's sales landers, some potential buyers may remember Epik from the news and say "there is no way I am buying a domain from this company!"

As a matter of fact, they may visit Wikipedia. As per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epik_(domain_registrar) :

A few quotes:

Epik is an ICANN-accredited domain registrar and web hosting company[1] known for providing services to websites that host far-right, Neo-Nazi, and other extremist content as well as those that sell illegal drugs and counterfeit medications.[8] It has been described by Vice as "a safehaven for the extreme right" because of its willingness to host websites that have been shut down by other web hosts.[5]

Hosting of far-right and illicit content
The company touts itself as a protector of free speech,[7] and CEO Rob Monster has described Epik as "the Swiss bank of domains".[3] Epik has a history of not responding to reports of illegal activity on the websites they register, which is unusual for domain registrars based in the United States.[4] Pharmaceutical watchdog website LegitScript has reported that they alerted Epik to the sale of illegal drugs and counterfeit medications on websites registered by Epik, and that Epik has not acted upon the information.[4]

Epik received media attention in early November 2018 for registering Gab, an English-language social media website known for its mainly far-right user base, after it was ousted by GoDaddy for allowing "content on the site that both promotes and encourages violence against people." This came shortly after it was revealed that the perpetrator of the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting had used the service to post "hateful content".[2][9][10][11] Monster described GoDaddy's choice to terminate their relationship with Gab as "heavy-handed".[3] Tal Moore, a member of Epik's board, resigned in December 2018 over the company's involvement with Gab.[3]

Epik is also known for registering other websites with far-right content, such as the video hosting service BitChute and the conspiracy theory website InfoWars.[5][7]

(end of quotes)

Epik should probably start using different branding for the marketplace.

 

[Internet.Domains]

Now let's talk about how the media has unfairly treated @Rob Monster. They have unfairly, without evidence, said some pretty nasty things. By many definitions the labeling they put on Rob is considered "hate speech" on it's own merit.

The domain community, and the larger technology community, should appreciate Rob's motivation to search for truth and justice for all.

There should be no condemnation for someone tirelessly fighting for fairness in a world where nothing seems fair.

 

[Rob Monster]

As a matter of fact, they may visit Wikipedia. As per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epik_(domain_registrar) :

A few quotes:

Epik is an ICANN-accredited domain registrar and web hosting company[1] known for providing services to websites that host far-right, Neo-Nazi, and other extremist content as well as those that sell illegal drugs and counterfeit medications.[8] It has been described by Vice as "a safehaven for the extreme right" because of its willingness to host websites that have been shut down by other web hosts.[5]

Hosting of far-right and illicit content
The company touts itself as a protector of free speech,[7] and CEO Rob Monster has described Epik as "the Swiss bank of domains".[3] Epik has a history of not responding to reports of illegal activity on the websites they register, which is unusual for domain registrars based in the United States.[4] Pharmaceutical watchdog website LegitScript has reported that they alerted Epik to the sale of illegal drugs and counterfeit medications on websites registered by Epik, and that Epik has not acted upon the information.[4]

Epik received media attention in early November 2018 for registering Gab, an English-language social media website known for its mainly far-right user base, after it was ousted by GoDaddy for allowing "content on the site that both promotes and encourages violence against people." This came shortly after it was revealed that the perpetrator of the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting had used the service to post "hateful content".[2][9][10][11] Monster described GoDaddy's choice to terminate their relationship with Gab as "heavy-handed".[3] Tal Moore, a member of Epik's board, resigned in December 2018 over the company's involvement with Gab.[3]

Epik is also known for registering other websites with far-right content, such as the video hosting service BitChute and the conspiracy theory website InfoWars.[5][7]

(end of quotes)

Epik should probably start using different branding for the marketplace.

Well, keep in mind that the Wikipedia article is a hit piece likely written by SPLC or its proxies. Try to make an edit on that page.

Our company focus going forward is on registrar, marketplace and domain finance. I support lawful free speech, but am not going to be a poster child for it.

We have an awesome set of products, are governed by principles and values, and treat everyone one as an individual without bias or preference. We have walked that talk.

 

[JayT]

Wiki is a front, controlled propaganda.

 

[Rob Monster]

Wiki is a front, controlled propaganda.

Agreed. Same with Snopes. Wish it were not so, but it is. The content is 99% useful and 1% poison, but the poison is there. A little leaveneth the whole lump. It is often useful but I would handle Wikipedia with discernment if you want to know incontrovertible truth about topics where there is difference of opinion.

 

[offthehandle]

I'm not technically skilled enough

You are one of the best contributors here on Namepros and selflessly doing all the behind the scenes work you have accomplished during the NameJet Shill bidding thread, the Brandbucket things, etc. Don't sell yourself short. Keep at it. Glad to see you again posting here with data.

 

[tonyk2000]

It is often useful but I would handle Wikipedia with discernment if you want to know incontrovertible truth about topics where there is difference of opinion

With the markeplace using Epik branding, it would be impossible to proactively explain this to any potential enduser (buyer) who found a potentially interesting domain, but decided to perform a minimal background check. Wikipedia is well indexed, and so are various websites posting Epik-related news in negative context.

 

[Rob Monster]

With the markeplace using Epik branding, it would be impossible to proactively explain this to any potential enduser (buyer) who found a potentially interesting domain, but decided to perform a minimal background check. Wikipedia is well indexed, and so are various websites posting Epik-related news in negative context.

Well, I am going to work on being less controversial. I won't stop being genuine. I have yet to see a marketplace transaction not go through due to some PR concern. I believe the PR we are about to put out shows that we are responsible stewards and trying to make the Internet work for all who responsibly engaged.

 

[JayT]

I feel like writing wiki since one here thinks it's legit. Besides a few of my own stories, there are others, real famous people, that can't even edit fallacy from their page. It's hardly a secret, I thought. But some people, people not like me obviously must keep reading rags that preach wiki or something.

I won't talk much about it and I do have a few experiences. I am only going on this because it even relates to well, 4chan. See, I like memes. I use to play games, real well, before it was popular, before computers were really even capable of screen recording.

Now, this isn't a real big deal, but a lot of the 'new kids' like to take credit for a lot of things that were invented, said and done well before their time. Each of the 4chan, wow and these type sites which are popular with kids have wiki pages FULL of fallacy, and giving credit where not due.

You can swear up and down and tell mod, but it's ur word vs the world, basically. Being right doesn't mean even MOST people are going to agree with you!

 

[Paul]

Just as a reminder, discussion here to needs to focus on domaining. It's okay to wander a little bit into politics and policy that relate to domaining, but this is the wrong thread for general political debate. I understand that there is a lot at stake here, and that the underlying issue is much larger than our industry, but this is an industry-specific forum. Please be careful to avoid fueling off-topic political discussion in this thread.

Edit: Note that I'm not carefully reading everything posted here, just checking in sporadically; I have other work that I need to do. If you see anything problematic, please report it, and a moderator will take a look as soon as possible. I'm not presently able to respond to reports in this thread, so please don't contact me directly with any concerns; use the "Report" link instead.

 

[xynames]

“As soon as we were notified of the content that Epik was hosting, we made the decision to totally ban them,” Voxility business development VP Maria Sirbu told The Verge. Sirbu said it was unlikely that Voxility would work with Epik again. “This is the second situation we’ve had with the reseller and this is not tolerable,” she said.
https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/5/2...fline-voxility-service-cutoff-hate-speech-ban

And we all know what the first situation was.

 

[Rob Monster]

Official statement on Acceptable Use Policy has been posted:

https://epik.com/blog/epik-draws-line-on-acceptable-use.html

We will not host 8Chan -- it is over the line. We have the technical ability to do it but have elected not to do it.

The entire premise of an Anonymous site with only anonymous users without 24/7 skilled moderation does not provide adequate framework for self-policing.

Tweeted here:

https://twitter.com/EpikDotCom/status/1158822176985964544

 

[frank-germany]

Well, keep in mind that the Wikipedia article is a hit piece likely written by SPLC or its proxies. Try to make an edit on that page.

Our company focus going forward is on registrar, marketplace and domain finance. I support lawful free speech, but am not going to be a poster child for it.

We have an awesome set of products, are governed by principles and values, and treat everyone one as an individual without bias or preference. We have walked that talk.

where exactly is Wikipedia
not telling the truth?
where is it hostile propanda?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epik_(domain_registrar) :