domains Doron Vermaat is a stand up guy – BrandBucket Name Sells while in Auction at Namepros

[equity78]

Doron Vermaat is a stand up guy – BrandBucket Name Sells while in Auction at Namepros
A hypothetical scenario that I wrote about last week on Namepros has become a real scenario for one high profile domainer. Namepros has become the wholesale platform for BrandBucket published and approved names. The one caveat, the name is live on BrandBucket. The worst scenario you want to have happen is for your auction to be at $31 and 80 hours left to go, and you get an email congratulations … [Read more...]

---

Update:

• Here's how it works on NamePros

 

[equity78]

Quick question Ray @equity78

If the auction holder opened up a fake account or used another account to bid up the auction to guarantee he would be the high bidder just so he could then tell Namepros that the bidder backed out so he didn't have to go through with the auction. Who's to say this is not a possible scenario. Is there something in the TOS that says he has to sell to the second highest bidder? Or can he just back out and keep the sale himself?

You think like I think every possible angle. There is nothing in the TOS to sell to the second highest bidder. Look 100's of auctions end each week, if you lose you move on, only a really great name would have anyone looking for a whois change.

If you lost a $12 name you are not looking to see if CrazyTrain21 actually followed through.

So more than likely, the auction would end with BogusFakeAccount as the winner. Then someone who noticed would probably pm the seller and say I see you still own those 68 names what happened ?

The seller would say something like, idiot backed out, oh well I have decided to keep them.

A high profile auction like this may have some ask Namepros to monitor and that would help because Eric and Paul are really good at catching scammers. But there is always a chance.

Maybe your idea of second highest bidder gets the offer would be cool, that's up to Eric. IMO it would have to be an option not mandatory because the person in second may have spent their money on other auctions.

 

[hookbox]

I don't think I used the word praise, I said stand up guy, I have been doing this a long time on Namepros, longer than Mr Lyon or Mr Zeiden, many have backed out for less or tried to play a game. So I kind of wrote my article from two perspectives, one as I thought it was an interesting story and something I posted as a potential scenario in a thread here, second from the perspective as a mod for over a decade. Doron could have easily pulled a move. Hell since this story I have had comments and emails from people telling me they would have pulled a move for $2,995. Do you know how many times people try to edit auction specifics after the fact ? If it gets reported a mod can easily find out the problem because there is access to the history of the post. We have had people change auction ends after x hours to x hours plus 24.

He could have not pmmed me, just went in removed SchoolPanda.com and placed LaunchMania.com in there.

I doubt anyone would have been like "Wait SchoolPanda.com's gone"

The upside is the rules will become more clear when dealing with these kinds of auctions. There was a lot of people confused on the exact methodology.

@DU brought up a good point but BB publicly acknowledged these auctions were allowed, when all this started over a year ago I made sure to ask Michael Krell. This has been a boon for BrandBucket as a whole business model was built around, wait for a .com reg deal, register brandables submit to BrandBucket, get approved and auction on Namepros.

Now like with any method that gets overexposure the results get diluted down. I think Eric did a good job explaining that mentioning cash upfront was always allowed if done before there was a single bid.

His company deals directly with domainers. Standup guy or not there isn't a chance anyone would try to pull a fast one because as soon as someone here figured it out all hell would break loose and he would be shunned from the domainer society.

 

[equity78]

His company deals directly with domainers. Standup guy or not there isn't a chance anyone would try to pull a fast one because as soon as someone here figured it out all hell would break loose and he would be shunned from the domainer society.

Very true if caught, my premise was based on it possibly not being caught. The outlier chance that someone was focused on schoolpanda.com.

I do agree his position makes it more of an easy move. Others who are here anonymous or just as a hobbyist would have less at stake.

 

[hookbox]

Very true if caught, my premise was based on it possibly not being caught. The outlier chance that someone was focused on schoolpanda.com.

Many here follow brandable sales and as soon as DNbolt posted the sale I can promise that more than one person would have noticed the SchoolPanda sale.

 

[equity78]

Many here follow brandable sales and as soon as DNbolt posted the sale I can promise that more than one person would have noticed the SchoolPanda sale.

Very good Watson, but they would need to prove it was in the auction, the listing would have 68 names. My point was let Doron got change a name right now, unless you quoted the post to have all 68 names locked down, there might not be anyone with a record of all 68 names.

So DNBolt would post SchoolPanda.com sold but no one remembers it being in that auction thread.

This is like a domainer detective story, maybe we turn this into a series, fiction of course.

 

[JimJammy]

His company deals directly with domainers. Standup guy or not there isn't a chance anyone would try to pull a fast one because as soon as someone here figured it out all hell would break loose and he would be shunned from the domainer society.

What a load of tosh.

Doron did what he could in a situation that hasn't yet been encountered and managed it very well under the circumstances.

The fact that he has a business that deals with domains/domainers had nothing to do with his actions. To even imply that he 'had to do this because of that' is plain wrong.

Not everyone is devious.

 

[hookbox]

What a load of tosh.

Doron did what he could in a situation that hasn't yet been encountered and managed it very well under the circumstances.

The fact that he has a business that deals with domains/domainers had nothing to do with his actions. To even imply that he 'had to do this because of that' is plain wrong.

Not everyone is devious.

Do you think it's devious to make sure everyone in the auction knew that the name sold just to be sure that he would be guaranteed to get his money back? Plus have it publicly announced on Ray's blog to possibly get even more bids for his auction? I'm not saying it's devious but it's extremely smart. If he didn't say anything he would be out 2 grand. Everybody thinks in different ways Jimmy.

 

[DU]

Doron seems like a nice guy but in this situation he HAS to honor the sale. He has absolutely zero choice in the matter. He owns Efty which targets domainers so if he backs out of the deal he will look like a fool and lose his business and Michael Cyger won't be to happy about that. All this "highly professional Doron" is total bullsh*t. Give me a break.

There isn't a right answer in this situation. The seller has TWO competing "contractual" obligations.
My feeling is simply that these types of sales should NOT be allowed because it's just easier.

The names are not free of encumbrance - the buyer has an obligation (as I understand) to leave the names at BrandBucket for a set number of days. The actual right thing to do would have been to allow the auction to finish (without the update) then negotiate a change with the winning bidder or cancel the auction and take the punishment.

The way it is here Doron won't actually even lose much in the way of proceeds as it's built into the new bidding baseline. All that happens is a market violation that no one wants to enforce.

Even BB is at minimal risk here - they have a name that they just sold that is under "contractual" (quotes are because it's not really all that enforceable) obligation elsewhere. The buyer at BB is not buying a name free of encumbrance which I'm certain is part of the buyer/seller agreement. The fact that BB allows this speaks volumes for their client concerns. No doubt the T&C puts them as market place and it's just a minor reputation hit to them if it all goes pear shaped.... but they will leave Doron with the target on his back. Of course this is a bush league industry where nothing every really happens.

Please keep in mind that auctions are binding agreements, and if a seller fails to uphold their end of the auction, then their account will receive a bad business infraction that may remove their ability to use the marketplace or close their account entirely. Additionally, it will reflect negatively on their character and reputation, because the incident will be publicly and permanently on their record.

Fortunately, Doron is an honest business person and he is doing everything that he can to make sure everyone is treated fairly in this rare situation.

So it's a binding agreement except when a rare scenario occurs This would be much more interesting if two large pocket corporate entities were involved rather than just small budget domainers.

The other thing of note is that an auction like this the Terms and Conditions of BrandBucket aren't transferred and they aren't signed or even reviewed. So the bidder here has not signed up for any obligation to sell at BIN.

@DU
Look the rules are he has to deliver 68 names, a name sold, so he is not able to do that, he is giving the proceeds to the winner, of course by telling people that the bids would increase, I mean he could have made an excuse or even lied and said oh I thought it was 68 I meant 67 schoolpanda.com was not meant to be included. I just had another brandable investor do that to me and I caught him in the lie.

You make a good point about BrandBucket and maybe the deal becomes only auction approved names, or the best kind of auction, start the 30 day timer on Published names, once the 30 days up, auction. The published names can go back with no $10 needed.

You're right, and i give D. credit for that. I doubt many NP users eyed schoolpanda as the jewel in the crown here! It's an unfortunate situation but still one that could be anticipated. Dual listing is and always will be a problem regardless of how you try to provide escape clauses.

I actually like your suggestion of "freezing accounts" at BrandBucket. This would allow temporary de-listing for the purpose of transferring and managing portfolios. It's a feature BB should definitely add if they don't have it (assuming people follow instructions and freeze their listings when selling portfolios). They should also charge a re-listing fee to make more money when portfolio changes

Example Auction (allowed): a.com and b.com will sell to the high bidder after 72 hours. If a.com is sold elsewhere during this auction, the winning bidder will receive $500 instead. If b.com is sold elsewhere during this auction, the winning bidder will receive $300 instead.

So I've bid and won! I'm thrilled because I really really wanted SchoolPanda.com.
Now I get $500 instead but I've now spent more money to get the name that I wanted?.... These clauses don't make sense. Do I not bid because the one name I want might sell?
Of course, maybe I found out that I had to leave the name listed at BB and it could sell anyway.

I said this when Judgemind had the capability to substitute an equivalent name and this whole portfolio nonsense started. I reported this as an issue to you and you responded that you couldn't manage dual listing as you weren't responsible for other venue T&C. However, you do control NP and dual listing is bad. Period. I reported it to BB at the time as well and they did nothing - I think this speaks volumes about their commitment to everyone but Krell

 

[equity78]

There isn't a right answer in this situation. The seller has TWO competing "contractual" obligations.
My feeling is simply that these types of sales should NOT be allowed because it's just easier.

The names are not free of encumbrance - the buyer has an obligation (as I understand) to leave the names at BrandBucket for a set number of days. The actual right thing to do would have been to allow the auction to finish (without the update) then negotiate a change with the winning bidder or cancel the auction and take the punishment.

The way it is here Doron won't actually even lose much in the way of proceeds as it's built into the new bidding baseline. All that happens is a market violation that no one wants to enforce.

Even BB is at minimal risk here - they have a name that they just sold that is under "contractual" (quotes are because it's not really all that enforceable) obligation elsewhere. The buyer at BB is not buying a name free of encumbrance which I'm certain is part of the buyer/seller agreement. The fact that BB allows this speaks volumes for their client concerns. No doubt the T&C puts them as market place and it's just a minor reputation hit to them if it all goes pear shaped.... but they will leave Doron with the target on his back. Of course this is a bush league industry where nothing every really happens.



So it's a binding agreement except when a rare scenario occurs This would be much more interesting if two large pocket corporate entities were involved rather than just small budget domainers.

The other thing of note is that an auction like this the Terms and Conditions of BrandBucket aren't transferred and they aren't signed or even reviewed. So the bidder here has not signed up for any obligation to sell at BIN.



You're right, and i give D. credit for that. I doubt many NP users eyed schoolpanda as the jewel in the crown here! It's an unfortunate situation but still one that could be anticipated. Dual listing is and always will be a problem regardless of how you try to provide escape clauses.

I actually like your suggestion of "freezing accounts" at BrandBucket. This would allow temporary de-listing for the purpose of transferring and managing portfolios. It's a feature BB should definitely add if they don't have it (assuming people follow instructions and freeze their listings when selling portfolios). They should also charge a re-listing fee to make more money when portfolio changes



So I've bid and won! I'm thrilled because I really really wanted SchoolPanda.com.
Now I get $500 instead but I've now spent more money to get the name that I wanted?.... These clauses don't make sense. Do I not bid because the one name I want might sell?
Of course, maybe I found out that I had to leave the name listed at BB and it could sell anyway.

I said this when Judgemind had the capability to substitute an equivalent name and this whole portfolio nonsense started. I reported this as an issue to you and you responded that you couldn't manage dual listing as you weren't responsible for other venue T&C. However, you do control NP and dual listing is bad. Period. I reported it to BB at the time as well and they did nothing - I think this speaks volumes about their commitment to everyone but Krell

Do you think making it a requirement that to sell published domains, you can't list them for sale until your 30 day time limit has expired, that way the buyer has every option, they can sell it on their own, develop it or place it back on BrandBucket and they don't have to pay the $10 again.

 

[Name Trader]

IMO the new NP rules should state that BB names that are published cannot participate in an auction. Only BB approved (unlisted/unpublished) names can participate in auctions. BB published names can participate in BIN and Make an Offer.

This is an excellent and simple proposal which keeps the existing rules intact, which I am in favor of. Auctions should always be exclusive to NP's.

However, dealing with the current nightmare of 1 domain being sold at BB, which is part of a 68 domain auction here, is another matter. I think Doron should be reprimanded/penalized, the auction should be canceled, and following Justin's suggestion, should not be reopened. Since it was an auction opened up against NP's rules. If anyone wants to hear my 2 cents worth of opinion.

It pains me to say that because, I too think Doron is a standup guy. But I bow to whatever decision is made by the people in charge, because I have no skin in the game.

 

[equity78]

Stub there have been 100

This is an excellent and simple proposal which keeps the existing rules intact, which I am in favor of. Auctions should always be exclusive to NP's.

However, dealing with the current nightmare of 1 domain being sold at BB, which is part of a 68 domain auction here, is another matter. I think Doron should be reprimanded/penalized, the auction should be canceled, and following Justin's suggestion, should not be reopened. Since it was an auction opened up against NP's rules. If anyone wants to hear my 2 cents worth of opinion.

It pains me to say that because, I too think Doron is a standup guy. But I bow to whatever decision is made by the people in charge, because I have no skin in the game.

Stub there have been hundreds of auctions here for published names on BrandBucket. You were the winner of one of mine for less than what the name cost me. Namepros and BrandBucket have been aware of these auctions for over one year. Doron did nothing wrong by starting an auction in my opinion.

 

[Name Trader]

Do you think making it a requirement that to sell published domains, you can't list them for sale until your 30 day time limit has expired, that way the buyer has every option, they can sell it on their own, develop it or place it back on BrandBucket and they don't have to pay the $10 again.

That's quite a feasible option. The seller delists the domain(s) he wants to auction at NP's, and posts them for auction, 30 days after delisting them from BB.

 

[JimJammy]

Do you think it's devious to make sure everyone in the auction knew that the name sold just to be sure that he would be guaranteed to get his money back? Plus have it publicly announced on Ray's blog to possibly get even more bids for his auction? I'm not saying it's devious but it's extremely smart. If he didn't say anything he would be out 2 grand. Everybody thinks in different ways Jimmy.

No, I don't think it was devious. I think it was open and honest. What else was he supposed to do? He can't transfer it to the person that wins the auction but he must honor both his BB and NP contract.

It certainly doesn't deserve comments like...

He owns Efty which targets domainers so if he backs out of the deal he will look like a fool and lose his business and Michael Cyger won't be to happy about that.

All this "highly professional Doron" is total bullsh*t. Give me a break.

In my opinion he went above and beyond in a situation that hasn't been encountered before. He is honoring his BB agreement and his NP auction agreement (to the best of his ability). AND he has replaced the NP auction domain for sale with another (he probably didn't have to do that).

"Highly professional is total bullshit" That's your opinion. In my opinion he is a stand up guy.

 

[Name Trader]

Stub there have been 100


Stub there have been hundreds of auctions here for published names on BrandBucket. You were the winner of one of mine for less than what the name cost me. Namepros and BrandBucket have been aware of these auctions for over one year. Doron did nothing wrong by starting an auction IMO.

Rightly or wrongly. I have always assumed any BB listed domain I have bid on at NP's had not been approved by BB. But I know this is incorrect, because BB is constantly reminding me that some domains I have bought are requiring attention. I think Doron has definitely done something wrong, because he cannot now live up to the auction he originally created.

 

[Recons.Com]

I think one way could be when posting BB portfolio to state:

Here are xx names from BB. If any name from the list is sold via BB PRIOR to close of this auction, the seller reserves the right to replace it with another BB listed name. Could even disclose the names that could serve as replacement.

But, yes, you don't have to do it, as market quickly will adjust for cash, as the actual auction showed.

 

[Recons.Com]

Rightly or wrongly. I have always assumed any BB listed domain I have bid on at NP's had not been approved by BB. But I know this is incorrect, because BB is constantly reminding me that some domains I have bought are requiring attention. I think Doron has definitely done something wrong, because he cannot now live up to the auction he originally created.

I completely disagree. When BB portfolio is sold at those prices it is SOLELY with assumption that an investor is buyer and he is not bidding on a specific name for own use. Otherwise, the buyer should buy directly via BB and seller would be in violation of BB ToS.

So anyone buying BB portfolio realizes that there is a risk that the name can be sold while in auction, because he has an account there and knows how it works. This is not Doron-specific case and can happen to any auction.

Doron's solution works for everyone and doesn't violate anything and is fair to everyone.

 

[DU]

Do you think making it a requirement that to sell published domains, you can't list them for sale until your 30 day time limit has expired, that way the buyer has every option, they can sell it on their own, develop it or place it back on BrandBucket and they don't have to pay the $10 again.

Ray it's 30 days AFTER you request removal not just 30 days from listing:

No. By submitting and accepting your name for listing at BrandBucket you are agreeing to have BrandBucket as the exclusive seller for the duration that a domain name is listed, and listing the domain for sale elsewhere is prohibited.

At any time you may request to have your domains removed from BrandBucket, and they will continue to be listed for 30 days from the time of your notification.

So you can't sell published domains without that attached - but I don't know that you can attach the T&C from another site. And I don't care what anyone says - selling a portfolio is selling the names. Brandbucket, by allowing this, are showing themselves as having ZERO accountability. If nothing else it destroys the claim of ownership checking that BB stands behind.

This is an excellent and simple proposal which keeps the existing rules intact, which I am in favor of. Auctions should always be exclusive to NP's.

However, dealing with the current nightmare of 1 domain being sold at BB, which is part of a 68 domain auction here, is another matter. I think Doron should be reprimanded/penalized, the auction should be canceled, and following Justin's suggestion, should not be reopened. Since it was an auction opened up against NP's rules. If anyone wants to hear my 2 cents worth of opinion.

It pains me to say that because, I too think Doron is a standup guy. But I bow to whatever decision is made by the people in charge, because I have no skin in the game.

I agree - I actually thought I'd not be liked for my opinion as it's harsh. I don't think it speaks to his character at all.. .I've seen FAR worse! Given the unusual nature of the transaction and the documentation here it need not be anything too bad. It's not a scam, it's not deliberate attempt to mislead, it's the unfortunate fall out of doing something that is generally allowed that shouldn't be! A first time warning is fine but then I think he's already got that Negative trader rating if anyone wants to give it can be done.. beyond that? I don't think it's worth it - I think we all agree D. is trying to make the fairest best of a mess

I think it's more important that NP cut out these auctions. This is exactly the scenario that BrandRoot was talking about during his meltdown.

Stub there have been 100
Stub there have been hundreds of auctions here for published names on BrandBucket. You were the winner of one of mine for less than what the name cost me. Namepros and BrandBucket have been aware of these auctions for over one year. Doron did nothing wrong by starting an auction IMO.

He violated the actual terms of BrandBucket if not the locally established terms of BrandBucket.

 

[Justin Matmor]

I think one way could be when posting BB portfolio to state:

Here are xx names from BB. If any name from the list is sold via BB PRIOR to close of this auction, the seller reserves the right to replace it with another BB listed name. Could even disclose the names that could serve as replacement.

But, yes, you don't have to do it, as market quickly will adjust for cash, as the actual auction showed.

Doron did have a disclaimer like that but was advised that it was invalid - hence he removed it a couple days after the auction commenced.

 

[DU]

I completely disagree. When BB portfolio is sold at those prices it is SOLELY with assumption that an investor is buyer and he is not bidding on a specific name for own use. Otherwise, the buyer should buy directly via BB and seller would be in violation of BB ToS.

So anyone buying BB portfolio realizes that there is a risk that the name can be sold while in auction, because he has an account there and knows how it works. This is not Doron-specific case and can happen to any auction.

Doron's solution works for everyone and doesn't violate anything and is fair to everyone.

So which is it?
Really? Assume much?

 

[Recons.Com]

So which is it?
Really? Assume much?

Seller is not selling to end-user, so he is not in violation. And buyer should not act as if he was in love with a specific domain he was determined to use for a project.

The forum is NAMEPROS, deals are reseller deals, bidders on BB auctions have to have BB accounts so they are aware that a name can sell before it is delivered to them. With a portfolio of 68 and 5% annual sale rate, in fact there is a decent chance one would be sold within an auction time frame.

Also I don't understand this beating around the bush as if someone is hurt by this somehow.

The NP administration clearly indicated no violation has happened, there is no winner as of yet, and future winner already knows the specific name is gone. So if there is no victim, why are we having a hearing?

 

[Name Trader]

I completely disagree. When BB portfolio is sold at those prices it is SOLELY with assumption that an investor is buyer and he is not bidding on a specific name for own use. Otherwise, the buyer should buy directly via BB and seller would be in violation of BB ToS.

So anyone buying BB portfolio realizes that there is a risk that the name can be sold while in auction, because he has an account there and knows how it works. This is not Doron-specific case and can happen to any auction.

Doron's solution works for everyone and doesn't violate anything and is fair to everyone.

I wasn't referring to buying a portfolio with my comment. was referring to Ray's accusation that I had bought one of his active BB domains at auction, which made it OK, for people to auction active BB lisitings. Which I happen not to agree with. Even if I have unwittingly participated in such an auction.

 

[Recons.Com]

I wasn't referring to buying a portfolio with my comment. was referring to Ray's accusation that I had bought one of his active BB domains at auction, which made it OK, for people to auction active BB lisitings. Which I happen not to agree with. Even if I have unwittingly participated in such an auction.

Active BB names are allowed to be transferred from seller to seller by BB. This is in their interest, as well as sellers' as it creates more liquidity and liquidity always increases the value for everyone.

Furthermore, active names at auction also mean for an investor that listing fees are paid and hence he/she should be even happier to bid.

I am not sure, why we, as investors, are complaining about something that is already set up in our best interest?

Do we want BB/NP to disallow trading active names and create a black market for those?

 

[Name Trader]

Seller is not selling to end-user, so he is not in violation. And buyer should not act as if he was in love with a specific domain he was determined to use for a project.

The forum is NAMEPROS, deals are reseller deals, bidders on BB auctions have to have BB accounts so they are aware that a name can sell before it is delivered to them. With a portfolio of 68 and 5% annual sale rate, in fact there is a decent chance one would be sold within an auction time frame.

Also I don't understand this beating around the bush as if someone is hurt by this somehow.

The NP administration clearly indicated no violation has happened, there is no winner as of yet, and future winner already knows the specific name is gone. So if there is no victim, why are we having a hearing?

Doron has definitely done something wrong because he cannot now sell the domain he has sold at BB, and all Auctions on NP's must be exclusive to NP's. Else why are we having this bru ha ha now. I don't think anybody, including Doron, can claim there is nothing wrong with the auction he has originally setup.

 

[Name Trader]

Active BB names are allowed to be transferred from seller to seller by BB. This is in their interest, as well as sellers' as it creates more liquidity and liquidity always increases the value for everyone.

Furthermore, active names at auction also mean for an investor that listing fees are paid and hence he/she should be even happier to bid.

I am not sure, why we, as investors, are complaining about something that is already set up in our best interest?

Do we want BB/NP to disallow trading active names and create a black market for those?

The reason is simple. All auctions on NP's must be exclusive to NP's. Which completely disallows listed BB names to be auctioned on NP's, because it is not an exclusive listing.

 

[Recons.Com]

Doron has definitely done something wrong because he cannot now sell the domain he has sold at BB, and all Auctions on NP's must be exclusive to NP's. Else why are we having this bru ha ha now. I don't think anybody, including Doron, can claim there is nothing wrong with the auction he has originally setup.

If you are right (I don't believe you are), then NP should ban all BB auctions (which would be bad, but you want to be formal about, right?) as by definition any BB listed name has exclusivity for 30 days at least with BB. You cannot demand exclusivity for something which is under exclusivity with another party. So this becomes NP policy issue, if you are right, and you should take it with them and not attack Doron.