NameSilo

When is a domain officially transfered? (broad discussion)

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I've rewritten this sentence now a couple of times because I'm not exactly sure how to ask this. Maybe it's easier to give an example.

Assume you're a third party watching a domain transaction taking place. At what point can you be sure that the transaction is over and the transfer has legally taken place?

If the whois information on the account changes, including telephone #s, email addresses, contact information, etc. is that sufficient? Once that email address has been changed, that domain is no longer accessible or owned by the previous owner correct?

Am I missing anything? Are there ways to spoof a whois record?

What I'm trying to get at is how does anyone know who the legal owner is? Purely whois information?

Thanks,
Chris

PS. This is a general interest question and nothing more. It has nothing to do with any of the domains I own/might be purchasing.
 
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The views expressed on this page by users and staff are their own, not those of NamePros.
Originally posted by Chris_C
If the whois information on the account changes, including telephone #s, email addresses, contact information, etc. is that sufficient? Once that email address has been changed, that domain is no longer accessible or owned by the previous owner correct?

This is not the case. The user would also have to have full control of the domain.

I could easily change the WHOIS on one of my domains to show your name and e-mail address, but you would not be able to control the domain without access to my account. A lot of this depends on the registrar and their policies on ownership.

This is an interesting topic. I'd like to find out a definitive answer myself.
 
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If I had a domain name at any one of the Registrars, and didn't have the "Domain Lock" on it ... and someone else had my E-mail address, then stuff could happen to have me "lose control" of my domain name. One could, in effect, "pull" the domain name away. In that light, I would consider control over the E-mail address to be paramount, IMHO. However, if it's in my Enom user account, what have you ... and with an E-mail address that I control and with a "Registrar Lock", then I would sleep well knowing I have full control of the domain name. This could vary with the different Registrar's rules and policies, as RJ mentions. I would think the (legal) owner would be the person listed in the WhoIs, which is supposed to be up-to-date and accurate.
Hope that doesn't cloud things further. :o
See you.
 
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I agree with Jeff about the admin email account control. But the ultimate thing is having control over the entire name's settings (ie nameservers, whois, EVERYTHING).
 
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I think that a 3rd party observer with no control over the domain transfer will have no foolproof way of knowing whether or not the domain was transferred completely. "Complete" meaning the new owner has absolute control over the name.

Like in CH's enom example, the account holder can change all whois info, including nameservers, to reflect the new owner. But as long as the domain was not 'pushed' into another enom account controlled by the new owner, then the original enom account holder can still change the whois info anytime, thereby regaining 'ownership' of the domain.

Therefore, domain transfer must be defined in terms of transfer of 'control' at the registrar level, not changes in whois 'ownership' info.
 
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This all sounds quite problematic from a regulation stand point. Where does ICANN fit into all of this, or do they? Who regulates this sort of thing...

It sort of sounds like there are two different types of registrars ("push" and email based). I know from experience with one domain that if you lose contact with the administrator then transfering the domain is done via faxes, telephone calls, and checking with the billing. That's with one registrar at any rate....

I could easily change the WHOIS on one of my domains to show your name and e-mail address, but you would not be able to control the domain without access to my account. A lot of this depends on the registrar and their policies on ownership.

I find that highly surprising in fact... It really muddles any kind of legal definition using WHOIS. Let's say that I was angry at coolhost :'( , so I developed a domain "ILoveNazis.com". I can then switch the whois information over to his RL address AND email address? The former I can see would be hard to regulate, but there's really no kind of protection or email confirmation? It sounds borderline negligent on the part of the registrar or regulation organization.....
 
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I didn't do nuffin'! :o

:bah:

I would say here that if you were to register that crazy domain and for some awful reason I wanted it, having my e-mail address in there would set in motion the transfer ("pull away") of the domain name from your "control" to my ownership and control (at my Registrar), IMHO. As to potential negligence at either the Registrars or Regulation organization, I would not necessarily disagree ... but I would think that the competitive nature of the business prompts for more convenience and increasing registrations (at the Registrar level) and not enough overseeing resources/capacity (at the Regulation level). It's probably an ongoing "balancing act" to a large degree.
Good conversation here.
Thanks.
 
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Right, but with the ILoveNazis.com example, even if CH's e-mail address was listed as the admin contact a transfer ("pull away") could not be done if the domain had the registry-lock feature enabled.

What about trademark-violating domains? You could just as easily set someone up for a potential lawsuit through the same method?
 
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I would think that the competitive nature of the business prompts for more convenience and increasing registrations (at the Registrar level) and not enough overseeing resources/capacity (at the Regulation level). It's probably an ongoing "balancing act" to a large degree.
I think this hits the nail on the head. Defining ownership as control of an web based login is crazy! But also incredibly convenient and a great way for a registrar to make extra $$ on the reseller's market. It's a lawsuit waiting (or already in the process) of happening but by the time things have been enforced, these registrars will have already made a fortune. Just like that versign scam of a search engine, of course they knew it was doomed to be shut down. Of course they knew ICANN would come down hard on them. How much of the $40 some odd million they get to keep after things settled down isn't as clear. We had an example in my business ethics class (don't remind me how long ago) of a CEO who made the decision not to recall unsafe automobiles because his actuary discovered that it would be more cost effective to just settle all the wrongful death lawsuits in the future. I think a little of that is constantly going on in the business world, just not in such an extreme.


What about trademark-violating domains? You could just as easily set someone up for a potential lawsuit through the same method?
Yah the implications of having a system like this set up are horrendous. Hacking/stealing a login and password is sad to say easy, yet that's the only thing controling some $xxx,xxx + domains? Something isn't right here...

I think that a 3rd party observer with no control over the domain transfer will have no foolproof way of knowing whether or not the domain was transferred completely. "Complete" meaning the new owner has absolute control over the name.
True? Certainly for the enom-type registrars this is the case... Does anyone know if there is a comprehensive list of all ICANN registered registration companies anywhere? Surely they must all publish explicitly in their TOS how they handle transfers..

Uniform Domain Name Dispute Resolution Policy
1. Purpose. This Uniform Domain Name Dispute Resolution Policy (the "Policy") has been adopted by the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers ("ICANN"), is incorporated by reference into your Registration Agreement, and sets forth the terms and conditions in connection with a dispute between you and any party other than us (the registrar) over the registration and use of an Internet domain name registered by you. Proceedings under Paragraph 4 of this Policy will be conducted according to the Rules for Uniform Domain Name Dispute Resolution Policy (the "Rules of Procedure"), which are available at www.icann.org/udrp/udrp-rules-24oct99.htm, and the selected administrative-dispute-resolution service provider's supplemental rules.

2. Your Representations. By applying to register a domain name, or by asking us to maintain or renew a domain name registration, you hereby represent and warrant to us that (a) the statements that you made in your Registration Agreement are complete and accurate; (b) to your knowledge, the registration of the domain name will not infringe upon or otherwise violate the rights of any third party; (c) you are not registering the domain name for an unlawful purpose; and (d) you will not knowingly use the domain name in violation of any applicable laws or regulations. It is your responsibility to determine whether your domain name registration infringes or violates someone else's rights.

3. Cancellations, Transfers, and Changes. We will cancel, transfer or otherwise make changes to domain name registrations under the following circumstances:

a. subject to the provisions of Paragraph 8, our receipt of written or appropriate electronic instructions from you or your authorized agent to take such action;

b. our receipt of an order from a court or arbitral tribunal, in each case of competent jurisdiction, requiring such action; and/or

c. our receipt of a decision of an Administrative Panel requiring such action in any administrative proceeding to which you were a party and which was conducted under this Policy or a later version of this Policy adopted by ICANN. (See Paragraph 4(i) and (k) below.)

We may also cancel, transfer or otherwise make changes to a domain name registration in accordance with the terms of your Registration Agreement or other legal requirements.

4. Mandatory Administrative Proceeding.

This Paragraph sets forth the type of disputes for which you are required to submit to a mandatory administrative proceeding. These proceedings will be conducted before one of the administrative-dispute-resolution service providers listed at www.icann.org/udrp/approved-providers.htm (each, a "Provider").

a. Applicable Disputes. You are required to submit to a mandatory administrative proceeding in the event that a third party (a "complainant") asserts to the applicable Provider, in compliance with the Rules of Procedure, that

(i) your domain name is identical or confusingly similar to a trademark or service mark in which the complainant has rights; and

(ii) you have no rights or legitimate interests in respect of the domain name; and

(iii) your domain name has been registered and is being used in bad faith.

In the administrative proceeding, the complainant must prove that each of these three elements are present.

b. Evidence of Registration and Use in Bad Faith. For the purposes of Paragraph 4(a)(iii), the following circumstances, in particular but without limitation, if found by the Panel to be present, shall be evidence of the registration and use of a domain name in bad faith:

(i) circumstances indicating that you have registered or you have acquired the domain name primarily for the purpose of selling, renting, or otherwise transferring the domain name registration to the complainant who is the owner of the trademark or service mark or to a competitor of that complainant, for valuable consideration in excess of your documented out-of-pocket costs directly related to the domain name; or

(ii) you have registered the domain name in order to prevent the owner of the trademark or service mark from reflecting the mark in a corresponding domain name, provided that you have engaged in a pattern of such conduct; or

(iii) you have registered the domain name primarily for the purpose of disrupting the business of a competitor; or

(iv) by using the domain name, you have intentionally attempted to attract, for commercial gain, Internet users to your web site or other on-line location, by creating a likelihood of confusion with the complainant's mark as to the source, sponsorship, affiliation, or endorsement of your web site or location or of a product or service on your web site or location.

c. How to Demonstrate Your Rights to and Legitimate Interests in the Domain Name in Responding to a Complaint. When you receive a complaint, you should refer to Paragraph 5 of the Rules of Procedure in determining how your response should be prepared. Any of the following circumstances, in particular but without limitation, if found by the Panel to be proved based on its evaluation of all evidence presented, shall demonstrate your rights or legitimate interests to the domain name for purposes of Paragraph 4(a)(ii):

(i) before any notice to you of the dispute, your use of, or demonstrable preparations to use, the domain name or a name corresponding to the domain name in connection with a bona fide offering of goods or services; or

(ii) you (as an individual, business, or other organization) have been commonly known by the domain name, even if you have acquired no trademark or service mark rights; or

(iii) you are making a legitimate noncommercial or fair use of the domain name, without intent for commercial gain to misleadingly divert consumers or to tarnish the trademark or service mark at issue.

d. Selection of Provider. The complainant shall select the Provider from among those approved by ICANN by submitting the complaint to that Provider. The selected Provider will administer the proceeding, except in cases of consolidation as described in Paragraph 4(f).

e. Initiation of Proceeding and Process and Appointment of Administrative Panel. The Rules of Procedure state the process for initiating and conducting a proceeding and for appointing the panel that will decide the dispute (the "Administrative Panel").

f. Consolidation. In the event of multiple disputes between you and a complainant, either you or the complainant may petition to consolidate the disputes before a single Administrative Panel. This petition shall be made to the first Administrative Panel appointed to hear a pending dispute between the parties. This Administrative Panel may consolidate before it any or all such disputes in its sole discretion, provided that the disputes being consolidated are governed by this Policy or a later version of this Policy adopted by ICANN.

g. Fees. All fees charged by a Provider in connection with any dispute before an Administrative Panel pursuant to this Policy shall be paid by the complainant, except in cases where you elect to expand the Administrative Panel from one to three panelists as provided in Paragraph 5(b)(iv) of the Rules of Procedure, in which case all fees will be split evenly by you and the complainant.

h. Our Involvement in Administrative Proceedings. We do not, and will not, participate in the administration or conduct of any proceeding before an Administrative Panel. In addition, we will not be liable as a result of any decisions rendered by the Administrative Panel.

i. Remedies. The remedies available to a complainant pursuant to any proceeding before an Administrative Panel shall be limited to requiring the cancellation of your domain name or the transfer of your domain name registration to the complainant.

j. Notification and Publication. The Provider shall notify us of any decision made by an Administrative Panel with respect to a domain name you have registered with us. All decisions under this Policy will be published in full over the Internet, except when an Administrative Panel determines in an exceptional case to redact portions of its decision.

k. Availability of Court Proceedings. The mandatory administrative proceeding requirements set forth in Paragraph 4 shall not prevent either you or the complainant from submitting the dispute to a court of competent jurisdiction for independent resolution before such mandatory administrative proceeding is commenced or after such proceeding is concluded. If an Administrative Panel decides that your domain name registration should be canceled or transferred, we will wait ten (10) business days (as observed in the location of our principal office) after we are informed by the applicable Provider of the Administrative Panel's decision before implementing that decision. We will then implement the decision unless we have received from you during that ten (10) business day period official documentation (such as a copy of a complaint, file-stamped by the clerk of the court) that you have commenced a lawsuit against the complainant in a jurisdiction to which the complainant has submitted under Paragraph 3(b)(xiii) of the Rules of Procedure. (In general, that jurisdiction is either the location of our principal office or of your address as shown in our Whois database. See Paragraphs 1 and 3(b)(xiii) of the Rules of Procedure for details.) If we receive such documentation within the ten (10) business day period, we will not implement the Administrative Panel's decision, and we will take no further action, until we receive (i) evidence satisfactory to us of a resolution between the parties; (ii) evidence satisfactory to us that your lawsuit has been dismissed or withdrawn; or (iii) a copy of an order from such court dismissing your lawsuit or ordering that you do not have the right to continue to use your domain name.

5. All Other Disputes and Litigation. All other disputes between you and any party other than us regarding your domain name registration that are not brought pursuant to the mandatory administrative proceeding provisions of Paragraph 4 shall be resolved between you and such other party through any court, arbitration or other proceeding that may be available.

6. Our Involvement in Disputes. We will not participate in any way in any dispute between you and any party other than us regarding the registration and use of your domain name. You shall not name us as a party or otherwise include us in any such proceeding. In the event that we are named as a party in any such proceeding, we reserve the right to raise any and all defenses deemed appropriate, and to take any other action necessary to defend ourselves.

7. Maintaining the Status Quo. We will not cancel, transfer, activate, deactivate, or otherwise change the status of any domain name registration under this Policy except as provided in Paragraph 3 above.

8. Transfers During a Dispute.

a. Transfers of a Domain Name to a New Holder. You may not transfer your domain name registration to another holder (i) during a pending administrative proceeding brought pursuant to Paragraph 4 or for a period of fifteen (15) business days (as observed in the location of our principal place of business) after such proceeding is concluded; or (ii) during a pending court proceeding or arbitration commenced regarding your domain name unless the party to whom the domain name registration is being transferred agrees, in writing, to be bound by the decision of the court or arbitrator. We reserve the right to cancel any transfer of a domain name registration to another holder that is made in violation of this subparagraph.

b. Changing Registrars. You may not transfer your domain name registration to another registrar during a pending administrative proceeding brought pursuant to Paragraph 4 or for a period of fifteen (15) business days (as observed in the location of our principal place of business) after such proceeding is concluded. You may transfer administration of your domain name registration to another registrar during a pending court action or arbitration, provided that the domain name you have registered with us shall continue to be subject to the proceedings commenced against you in accordance with the terms of this Policy. In the event that you transfer a domain name registration to us during the pendency of a court action or arbitration, such dispute shall remain subject to the domain name dispute policy of the registrar from which the domain name registration was transferred.

9. Policy Modifications. We reserve the right to modify this Policy at any time with the permission of ICANN. We will post our revised Policy at at least thirty (30) calendar days before it becomes effective. Unless this Policy has already been invoked by the submission of a complaint to a Provider, in which event the version of the Policy in effect at the time it was invoked will apply to you until the dispute is over, all such changes will be binding upon you with respect to any domain name registration dispute, whether the dispute arose before, on or after the effective date of our change. In the event that you object to a change in this Policy, your sole remedy is to cancel your domain name registration with us, provided that you will not be entitled to a refund of any fees you paid to us. The revised Policy will apply to you until you cancel your domain name registration.

Here's an example of one Registrar's TOS. Sounds like step 2 is a pretty sweeping way for them to insulate themselves from what we've been talking about..
 
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Here's an example of one Registrar's TOS. Sounds like step 2 is a pretty sweeping way for them to insulate themselves from what we've been talking about..

Bingo!

I would think the (legal) owner would be the person listed in the WhoIs, which is supposed to be up-to-date and accurate.

Regarding the automobile manufacturer ... these types of decisions were made every day (and likely still are) with regard to cigarette/tobacco products/companies, IMHO. Time, public awareness will usually always be the great equalizers.
B-)
 
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"What about trademark-violating domains? You could just as easily set someone up for a potential lawsuit through the same method?"

Heard of a case like that - Not to mention people being sued/busted for spamming using other's mx / Email Control -

IMO - It really does come down to alot of -trust- on buyers part -

NO ONE is really safe - There's always going to be someone dishonest and with enough power/smarts To mess with all of us - !
 
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