discuss We Must and Can Fix This

[Bob Hawkes]

I hope that this can be a thread around the issue of professional behaviour on NamePros, including but not limited to, bullying. I would ask that this is a thread about principles and ideas and suggestions related to the issue, and is not the place to rehash what anyone did or did not do.

So, I would like to start off with these points that I hope we can discuss:

1. I think unintentionally most of us are bullying sometimes on NPs.
2. I think our community would be better and stronger if we could eliminate bullying.
3. I think we can eliminate it.
4. Eliminating it is not as hard as we might think.
5. Rather than hamper meaningful discussion, removing bullying will make the discussion more valuable.

I know some will immediately disagree with calling it bullying, but please read my next post with an open mind. Others will say, yes there is some bullying but only by a tiny minority. It is not something I am part of the problem in. I am not so sure. Note that I said unintentionally.

The really exciting part is I am totally convinced we can do this! I was not even sure 24 hrs ago. I had a sleepless night and day to think more and interacted with various people. But we can together do this!

Some may be saying, but will this help me sell domain names? Surprisingly, at least long term, I think the answer is yes!

I welcome all NPs members, yes all one million of you, to work with us in doing this. It will be faster, easier and more positive than you probably think. This is not an us and them situation. I absolutely hope everyone will get on board.

Bob

 

[Internet.Domains]

I do agree others should generally not be a dick. At the same time who decides what is acceptable as it is so subjective?

The most common type of bullying I have witnessed is members with more experience, knowledge, sales history, etc. belittle or "put down" someone with less experience, knowledge, sales history, etc.

Bullying can be subjective pending the circumstances, but if those in the higher position try to use respect and kindness they can be assured it is not bullying.

Being skeptical and seeking further clarification is not bullying. Although seeking clarification while "putting down" would be a classic sign of bullying.

For those with more status (experience, knowledge, sales history etc.) there is greater responsibility to use respect and kindness, otherwise they may not be the "professional" they think they are.

 

[equity78]

Can we flip the script? There is stuff that comes from the other side too,

Making a statement about success, personal or that of an obscure extension, where there is not much Market Research Evidence. And no proof provided by the initial poster.

People caught in outright lies, there was at least one super duper thread where someone had basically said they had made other sales of equal value to their well documented big sale. Later on they basically outed themselves and someone pointed out, you said you had other sales of that price, they replied nope just that one. Then someone showed them where they wrote it and their reply was something along the lines of ehh not dealing with the negativity or the trolls. No one trolled the member forgot their own lies. Do I want them lynched for that? Absolutely not, but don't make it like people who quoted you and you voided your own quote are haters or trolls.

There are some people who have been outed that trust me the thread started slow, if no one could mention anything that at the current time was unfounded, that member would have gotten away with it.

Every stolen name that has been tried to be auctioned or sold here, started out with an accusation without concrete proof.

Members who ask for an appraisal and then get cocky when they don't like the comments of reg fee or $20, are they bullying the people who took the time to reply? I would say not bullying but certainly unprofessional like @Internet.Domains mentioned.

I agree with you 100% people should not belittle any sale, a small amount to you might be a great week for another person in a different part of the world.

If you notice where most nasty threads come from, that are not blatant scam artists or spammers, they come in new gtld threads. If you take inventory of the contentious back and forth I am willing to bet that's where more things get nasty than anywhere else.

Extensions do that, I wrote many years ago about having people come to me in .tv where one time, a member (no longer here) told me he was going to get on a plane, fly across the country and punch another member in the face. I asked why? He said my .tv names were crap. I replied well I wish you didn't tell me if you go through with this because now I am involved with knowledge of a premeditated assault, so don't even think about doing that, That member's opinion means nothing in your life, they are nobody and just so long as you like your names that's all that matters.

Too many people are getting caught up in other people's lives. It's not from care it's to push their superiority complex.

I write about a lot of topics and met a lot of people and helped a lot of people, the thing I learned is find your niche, and while you might not want to invest in an extension, after you provide a fact based hypothesis of why that extension might not be a good investment, the conversation ends. People have made money in so many niches and no one really knows all the strengths of the username they are talking to, someone might be a master marketer, they might be quite happy with $500 sales, feeling they can get more of those in volume than holding out. There is no universal right way. There is the personal right way for each person. There is knowledge to be gained but ultimately it's on each person to follow their own path and then the two entities that matter, the only two, your email account where your offers come in and your bank account. They will tell you if you are doing things right or not, no blogger, forum member or legend can match any of that.

 

[bmugford]

The most common type of bullying I have witnessed is members with more experience, knowledge, sales history, etc. belittle or "put down" someone with less experience, knowledge, sales history, etc.

Right, but that is often after the less experienced person has an attitude problem or completely dismisses the experience, knowledge, and sales history of someone more experienced. I am not going to name names, but I see this a lot.

I rarely see an experienced domainer just proactively being a dick for no reason.

Brad

 

[arjun29]

There is no such bullying here in namepros (except few now and then events). I strongly disagree with this post. Unwanted drama I see. Again, I am not bullying. Just pouring my heart out. Cheers!

 

[Internet.Domains]

Right, but that is often after the less experienced person has an attitude problem or completely dismisses the experience, knowledge, and sales history of someone more experienced. I am not going to name names, but I see this a lot.

I rarely see an experienced domainer just proactively being a dick for no reason.

Brad

Yes, I get your point. The definition of bullying is defined, but mostly on Namepros it will be subjective and for that reason everyone will see it differently.

I know, for me personally, I am going to try to be more respectful and kind. I hope others will as well. If they don't, I respect their decision.

 

[Bravo Mod Team]

There is something about dislike that gets some peoples ire up.

Changed. How's that?

(There is a bug when you first Downvote or Un-Downvote where it shows the old text, but that will be fixed soon.)

 

[arjun29]

un-downvote / downvote sounds so weird. If possible plz think about something more pleasing.

 

[Bravo Mod Team]

There was a TV show or movie about something like that, where a group came in and cleaned things up after an unsavoury event.

Men in Black.

un-downvote / downvote sounds so weird. If possible plz think about something more pleasing.

Many websites use icons for this purpose, but that would take much longer to do since the website is built to use text in those places. However, those icons mean "Upvote" and "Downvote" (or "Vote Up" and "Vote Down" if you prefer), but we have both a "Like" and "Thank" option that represent "Upvote" so keeping those unchanged seems clearest.

We would have to create new options (and counts) for "Agree" and "Disagree" because those do not accurately represent all existing Likes and Dislikes, so that would require a lot more work and likely not happen soon.

We're open to suggestions for different names for these options.

 

[carob]

We're open to suggestions for different names for these options.

Just remove the Dislike button entirely. Originally it wasn't there anyway. If someone disagrees, they can do so in private, or create a post saying why they disagree.

A lot of what this thread is about is already covered by NP rules. I have reported a few posts for name-calling when it seemed to be just abusive and baseless, and in most cases mods took action. Overall I think the moderation on NP is very good.

The word bullying gets used more and more these days. If that means bullying is really taking place and gets reduced, good. If that means that normal discussion and disagreement is discouraged because it might upset someone, bad.

 

[Bravo Mod Team]

This is the most relevant page that we have relating to this topic:

• Expectations for respect and constructiveness

To emphasize, the best way to handle situations that are in contrast with those expectations (e.g., bullying) is to report it and not reply to it.

At a minimum, please report it first, and if we reject the report, then consider replying to it. If you reply to it before we review the report, then your reply may be the difference that causes the report to be rejected, which is likely not what you want if you're reporting it. Worse, your reply could result in you being reported if cooler heads do not prevail.

We're listening and appreciate everyone's input on this topic.

 

[MapleDots]

We would have to create new options (and counts) for "Agree" and "Disagree" because those do not accurately represent all existing Likes and Dislikes, so that would require a lot more work and likely not happen soon.

Actually I think Dislike and Disagree would not be confusing.

All existing topics where I disliked a post I personally meant I disagree with the poster. My interpretation was never that I dislike the poster.

I think changing it to disagree does not skew the meaning in previous posts. In fact I think agree and disagree make it look mature and more like a journalism site.

So I disagree with the above post.

Wow that sound so mature and really not at all confrontational.

It would bring the forum more in line with an opinion as opposed to a judgement.
Downvote could still be misinterpreted as in... "What you're downvoting me?"

My response would now have to be.... No my friend I am only disagreeing with you.

Still need to explain to a new member what that means.

You can always leave one link at like because thank and like are similar, as long as you have an agree and disagree.

 

[karmaco]

I disagree with any further censorship on this forum. I believe the report button and the mods do a fantastic job of removing any offensive posts and handling infrequent fights that occur.

I come here to learn and read what others have to say so that I can improve my domaining skills. If we are not here to learn how to sell more domains and make more money—why are we here?

I did not come here to be schooled on ethics or have other people’s ethics imposed on me or walk on verbal eggshells. Nobody should be afraid to post what they really think as long as they post it as politely as they know how.

I personally love the forum the way it is with all the different personalities and styles of communicating. When something offends you don’t cry to Bob (sounds like people run to Bob when they feel bullied) put your big boy pants on and stand up for yourself or use the report button.

This is not Kumbaya this is a crash course in a business that we decided to undertake. I agree with whoever said some people with such delicate sensibilities probably aren’t cut out for domaining. You ask a question expect a real answer not a sugar coated answer. I respect the blunt answers.

If people don’t like the style of posters use the ignore feature. I feel this bullying idea on NP is extremely exaggerated and I have been here about as long as Bob.

 

[Bravo Mod Team]

I think changing it to disagree does not skew the meaning in previous posts.

Not a disagreement, but with all due respect, you're in fact wrong.

There are many reasons why members have disliked posts and while "disagree" may be the most popular, it does not represent them all.

Read more about some of the other reasons for dislikes:

• Likes vs. Thank vs. Dislike

My interpretation was never that I dislike the poster.

That's not a use case we're concerned about, but since you thought of it, there are probably incidents of it happening. We do not condone disliking a post for that reason.

It would bring the forum more in line with an opinion as opposed to a judgement.

Agreed.

Still need to explain to a new member what that means.

For those who feel there shouldn't be an option to dislike, disagree, or downvote, then your point is a positive one since the option will be used less.

"What you're downvoting me?"

This is likely the heart of the issue: it might make more sense to hide who is downvoting and only show a total score instead like you see on other sites (notice how some have negative scores).

Is knowing who disagreed or downvoted a post actually important as long as the effect/knowledge of it exists?

It's something to think about.

 

[carob]

This is likely the heart of the issue: it might make more sense to hide who is downvoting and only show a total score instead like you see on other sites (notice how some have negative scores).

The dislike button is bad. I don't use it. Making it anonymous makes it worse.

Simple question: Why was the Dislike button introduced?

 

[MapleDots]

Is knowing who disagreed or downvoted a post actually important as long as the effect/knowledge of it exists?

It's something to think about.

Yes actually for me it would be beneficial

Example.....

I think domain.com is worth 10k

New Member = disagree
Means nothing to me

Pro Member or Mike Mann - disagree
Hmm without saying a word they have my attention and it definitely is not negative attention.

Total of 2 disagreements does not tell me that a pro member or Mike Mann disagreed with me.

It's called namepros and the point is to learn from the pros.

Just the other side of the coin.

PS. Imagine how much easier appraisals would be...

Is my domain worth renewing?
Is my domain worth 1K?

Dislike = what a dickhead you are for asking

Downvote = you don't know what you're doing

Disagree = No (straight and simple)

 

[karmaco]

Yes actually for me it would be beneficial

Example.....

I think domain.com is worth 10k

New Member = disagree
Means nothing to me

Pro Member or Mike Mann - disagree
Hmm without saying a word they have my attention and it definitely is not negative attention.

Total of 2 disagreements does not tell me that a pro member or Mike Mann disagreed with me.

It's called namepros and the point is to learn from the pros.

Just the other side of the coin.

PS. Imagine how much easier appraisals would be...

Is my domain worth renewing?
Is my domain worth 1K?

Dislike = what a dickhead you are for asking

Downvote = you don't know what you're doing

Disagree = No (straight and simple)

The downvote has already been put in place.

 

[Bravo Mod Team]

Simple question: Why was the Dislike button introduced?

Simple answer:

The Post Quality System (Likes, Dislikes, and Thanks) is designed to provide subtle feedback to members on the content they're producing, and then they can decide to post more content like that or change their posting habits accordingly.

 

[MapleDots]

The downvote has already been put in place.

I disagree with that decision.

Now should I downvote you or should I disagree with you?

 

[Bravo Mod Team]

Is my domain worth renewing?
Is my domain worth 1K?

Dislike = what a dickhead you are for asking

Downvote = you don't know what you're doing

Disagree = No (straight and simple)

All of these are open to interpretation.

In your example, another equally-valid interpretation of "Disagree" is "I disagree with you asking this question" and there could be good reasons associated with that interpretation. For example, "I disagree with you asking this question because I know your domain is at auction and you're just trying to promote it indirectly." It may not be a straightforward "no" to everyone using it and could be interpreted quite differently by different people.

"Downvote" seems to be the most generic.

 

[Bob Hawkes]

This is the most relevant page that we have relating to this topic:

• Expectations for respect and constructiveness

To emphasize, the best way to handle situations that are in contrast with those expectations (e.g., bullying) is to report it and not reply to it.

If we could have agreement and compliance with these existing guidelines essentially all problems would be solved and we would, in my opinion, have a far better community.

I continue to not understand how following them interferes with any experienced members ability to effectively give direct advice. Can someone explain it to me?

Bob