discuss We Must and Can Fix This

[Bob Hawkes]

I hope that this can be a thread around the issue of professional behaviour on NamePros, including but not limited to, bullying. I would ask that this is a thread about principles and ideas and suggestions related to the issue, and is not the place to rehash what anyone did or did not do.

So, I would like to start off with these points that I hope we can discuss:

1. I think unintentionally most of us are bullying sometimes on NPs.
2. I think our community would be better and stronger if we could eliminate bullying.
3. I think we can eliminate it.
4. Eliminating it is not as hard as we might think.
5. Rather than hamper meaningful discussion, removing bullying will make the discussion more valuable.

I know some will immediately disagree with calling it bullying, but please read my next post with an open mind. Others will say, yes there is some bullying but only by a tiny minority. It is not something I am part of the problem in. I am not so sure. Note that I said unintentionally.

The really exciting part is I am totally convinced we can do this! I was not even sure 24 hrs ago. I had a sleepless night and day to think more and interacted with various people. But we can together do this!

Some may be saying, but will this help me sell domain names? Surprisingly, at least long term, I think the answer is yes!

I welcome all NPs members, yes all one million of you, to work with us in doing this. It will be faster, easier and more positive than you probably think. This is not an us and them situation. I absolutely hope everyone will get on board.

Bob

 

[mr-x]

Changing the like / dislike to agree / disagree is a good idea. Sounds nicer. I think the mods do a pretty good job. Mute or reporting should be enough.

So some of those who have responded that everything is fine and as it should be and no change is in order, to help me understand your thinking, could you please, if you have the time, help me see how some of the possible changes, mentioned here or elsewhere recently, would interfere with your ability to clearly offer wisdom based on your expertise in the business.

1. Change like/dislike to agree/disagree to make it easier to express that you do not agree
2. Factually untrue statements should not be posted or reposted (and corrected if later found to be untrue)
3. Comments should deal with the ideas being discussed and not personalities expressing views
4. When you are giving your opinion, as opposed to stating a clearly proven fact, start with "In my opinion...." This doesn't change at all what you say, other than that it is your opinion. Of course ideally you would strengthen that opinion by also saying what it is based on (e.g. 'I sold 25 brandable last year, and based on what sold I would say blah blah...")
5. We should not ascribe motives to others, since we cannot read minds.
6. While we can vociferously argue an idea, conclusion, suggestion etc., that should not stray into commenting on characteristics of the person presenting the idea other than relevant, factual points (e.g. he has only been in NPs for 3 days is a factual and possibly relevant point!).
7. Those who are in no way involved in discussing a point should not be introduced into it ('this is a crazy idea like those promoted all the time by...")
8. We should not call people demeaning names (other than their name or username, if they selected a demeaning one what can we do? ).
9. We should not misrepresent what someone else has said. Best is to use the quote feature so the reader can see what was said and context. We should not selectively quote with intention to deliberately change meaning.

I am really trying to understand how these, for example, limit your ability to helpfully contribute to the domain learning of all. I am not posting this to be argumentative, and really honestly would appreciate guidance to help me understand the other view.


I don't disagree with this that you said @Joe Nichols and nothing I am hoping our community might change infringes on that, in my opinion, other than responsibility for basic professionalism and truthfulness.

Anyway, thanks in advance, even if you have time to just comment on 1 or 2, to explain how that limits the wisdom of social hierarchy being effectively disseminated.

Have a good night everyone.

Bob

 

[Bob Hawkes]

Mute or reporting should be enough.

I like agree/disagree a lot too.
I know that many agree with you and I do see the logic of ignore (is mute something different?) and reporting. Maybe it is just me, but I really hate when untrue things about anything or anyone are not challenged. The down side of ignore is that many in the community just see the incorrect thing. Reporting is an option, and one that should probably be used more often. For example throughout the escalation of personalization, and since, I have not reported a single post. That is my bad I guess. The mods quickly stepped in and deleted on their own (or maybe someone else reported) the posts with the most personalized, demeaning, rude and slanted comments since they clearly broke existing NPs rules. I would prefer a system where there was enough guidance that things just worked right most of the time so not many reports are needed. NPs do not per se have a rule about untrue content other than people are responsible for what they post.
Thanks for replying.
Bob

 

[mr-x]

I like agree/disagree a lot too.
I know that many agree with you and I do see the logic of ignore (is mute something different?) and reporting. Maybe it is just me, but I really hate when untrue things about anything or anyone are not challenged. The down side of ignore is that many in the community just see the incorrect thing. Reporting is an option, and one that should probably be used more often. I would prefer a system where there was enough guidance that things just worked right most of the time so not many reports are needed. NPs do not per se have a rule about untrue content other than people are responsible for what they post.
Thanks for replying.
Bob

Posting corrections without quoting the original error / lie is a good tactic if the thread isn't to busy. It's hard not replying to someone who is incorrect or lying.

We've seen people with good reputations pump tld's like .mobi, companies bragging about paying six figures for a three word domain, promoting market places without disclosing compensation, etc. People are rightfully suspicious about vague claims.

It's easy for egos to take over a thread claiming some success and pretty soon even people pointing out the obvious case for renewing to avoid reg-fee increases are getting attacked.

I think a better method would to require people to be honest and transparent. If you sold a domain but can't speak b/c of a NDA, then don't talk about it. If you sold a domain and made enough to cover your cost for a year, tell us the domain.

Transparency would solve more than more rules imo.

 

[Bob Hawkes]

I think a better method would to require people to be honest and transparent. If you sold a domain but can't speak b/c of a NDA, then don't talk about it. If you sold a domain and made enough to cover your cost for a year, tell us the domain.

I think if universally applied this has a lot of merit actually.

promoting market places without disclosing compensation, etc.

I totally agree there should be some disclosure standards. I could not agree more. I think it is always better to err on side of too much disclosure, so even if you are appraising a domain but have a potentially competitor you should at least generally mention that. But particularly if compensated re a service.
Bob

 

[Bob Hawkes]

As a kid I grew up and dealt with bullying, as I got older and bigger I looked out for kids who got bullied, some of them kids with Down Syndrome. What's going on here on the whole is not bullying, it's an insult to real victims of bullying (some who have taken their lives).

I agree (well mainly). I think what happens here is bullying by all the definitions that I searched, but I agree that it is not in the class of what many young people deal with. I too was bullied as a youth but not at level of the tragic cases that we hear about. While I see the argument to not call it bullying, because it is so different, I also see the importance of reducing it to the degree we can, because bullying anywhere sort of gives it more license other places. I think we should not minimize potential impacts even here though. I'm not talking me. I'm a strong person at a happy place in my life that can take the abuse from a few here if I decide to, or walk away and be totally happy doing other things with my time if I choose not to.

Thank you for all your post. I mainly just wanted to thank you for an obviously heartfelt opinion. I always learn from what you write.

Bob

 

[Bob Hawkes]

Why am I so optimistic we could make the discussions more professional and more relevant, without losing anything that is genuine and important? Why do I think that we could do it relatively easily and quickly? I guess the children made me believe it. I know I write too much, but this will be the last for tonight.

Let me relate the pink shirt story which all started in the Annapolis Valley of NS in Canada in 2007 one high school in a small town. One day a grade 9 student at that school was being teased and bullied because he had on a pink shirt. Two grade 12 students, David Shepherd and Travis Price, stepped in and stopped the bullies. But they did something else. They met that night and said we want to do something to change the culture that says it is alright to bully, demean and make fun of others. If we all wear pink they can't bully us all. The next day they came to school in pink shirts, and then went out and bought 50 pink shirts for their friends. Within a week every single student at the school wore a pink shirt. By the next week every school in the whole province were wearing pink speaking up for acceptance of differences and against bullying. Soon it was everywhere in Canada. I live more than 6000 km from that school in Nova Scotia, but my grandchildren and every single staff member and student at the school wore pink on a day last month. Now around the world anti-bullying of all types is represented by Pink Shirt Day. Two students at a little school in a town no one heard of played a major role in changing the culture across Canada and to some degree around the world.

Now we don't have a problem at all comparable to that. I understand why some say don't even call it bullying. But we have the huge advantage that it is so easy to change. Some say we are used to how we say things, it would be hard to change. If David and Travis could change the culture in a whole country, surely we can do better being professional, and yes kind, in how we treat others at NPs.

I am so lucky to live very close to our grandchildren and we look after them one or two afternoons after school. We all live in a relatively high density area, mainly apartments, no backyards, so after school the children play in a playground attached to the school before we go home. Many many children. We have probably spend a few hundred hours in total in that playground. I just realized something this week. Do you know how many cases of bullying I witnessed in those several hundred hours? 0. I exaggerate not. Zero. Children are different ages, it is very ethnically mixed with many recent immigrant families, many different languages, many religious backgrounds, very different socioeconomic backgrounds, different ages, abilities and special needs. But those kids, whose brains are more self-centred than they will be when fully developed, despite that, all play in one very full space, without bullying. It is amazing.

How is it that we can't match what those kids achieved?

You might say what does this have to do with domaining? We can do better. And when we do, this community, as amazing as it has been for the better part of two decades, will be even more amazing.

This isn't about me being a victim. I've said it before and I say it again, I am no victim. Don't worry about me I am just fine, thank you. But if we can't be as good as those kids at being polite, fair and kind to each other, well that really disappoints me. And it should you too.

Bob

 

[bmugford]

Bullying is a very subjective term.

This thread is a bit hyperbole in my view. I don't see too many cases of actual bullying on NamePros. The people who get shit are the ones normally dealing the shit honestly.

Most of the push back I have seems comes from - hype threads (either a service or the person),
people making wild unsubstantiated claims, people with attitude problems, etc.

This is a discussion forum. People have different opinions.

If there is real bullying call it out, but there is a big difference between actual bullying and pushing back on bullshit.

Brad

 

[Internet.Domains]

I will stay away from the definition of bullying as that was accurately described at the beginning of this thread. So I will focus on the opposite, treating people with respect and kindness.

If you are unsure if you are possibly bullying, ask yourself, "Am I being respectful and/or exhibiting kindness?"

If your debating, especially when passionate, and you are not being respectful or kind, there is a chance it could be considered bullying, by definition.

So if you want to debate, which Namepros is known for, it's very important to remain respectful and kind while defending your position.

One thing that is definately not bullying is being respectful and kind. If you show respect and kindness, you can be assured it's not bullying.

 

[Bob Hawkes]

I don't see too many cases of actual bullying on NamePros.

While I agree with that statement, Brad, I don't agree that just because it is only a few that it does not matter.

It is partly that I honestly don't see why doing some things such as linked here would not only eliminate most of the cases that do happen, and at the same time improve the quality of discussion and the learning. Yes those with long term have important truth to share, but how does asking them to be honest and respectful make it harder to share effectively?

Bob

 

[bmugford]

While I agree with that statement, Brad, I don't agree that just because it is only a few that it does not matter.

It is partly that I honestly don't see why doing some things such as linked here would not only eliminate most of the cases that do happen, and at the same time improve the quality of discussion and the learning. Yes those with long term have important truth to share, but how does asking them to be honest and respectful make it harder to share effectively?

Bob

Hey Bob,

I never said it does not matter.

How about some actual examples of what you consider bullying? I think the problem is just overstated.

The vast majority of cases I have seen would fall under "people dealing shit are getting it back" case.

Brad

 

[bmugford]

I will stay away from the definition of bullying as that was accurately described at the beginning of this thread. So I will focus on the opposite, treating people with respect and kindness.

If you are unsure if you are possibly bullying, ask yourself, "Am I being respectful and/or exhibiting kindness?"

If your debating, especially when passionate, and you are not being respectful or kind, there is a chance it could be considered bullying, by definition.

So if you want to debate, which Namepros is known for, it's very important to remain respectful and kind while defending your position.

One thing that is definately not bullying is being respectful and kind. If you show respect and kindness, you can be assured it's not bullying.

I disagree. If you are making an argument there is absolutely no requirement to be kind.
You can present an opinion or argument that stands on its own merit without any emotion involved.

I will generally be respectful unless there is a reason not to be.

Some forum utopia is not realistic. Small improvements might be possible, but people have different goals, backgrounds, opinions, etc. Any forum with differing opinions will have heated discussions from time to time.

Brad

 

[Bob Hawkes]

How about some actual examples of what you consider bullying?

Calling what someone did is asinine, crazy, silly
Saying untruthful things about other people
Calling belittling names
Saying untruthfully, or implying, that people are just hyping in service of some one else
Deliberately misrepresenting things said
Saying that people are working together when they are not
Saying people are #### who need to be brought into line
Saying the person has no sense and just says nothing
Belittling accomplishments of others in a demeaning way
(these are paraphrased)

I know some of these bother some people more than others. To me, and I agree maybe this is not bullying exactly but it is certainly unprofessional, I find saying things that are untrue and misrepresenting what was said are the ones that bother me most. I worked 3.5 decades in an environment where being truthful was important. I think it should be here.

Anyway, I know the debate is not with you Brad. You have always gone out of your way to be professional. Blunt and direct at times but always accurate, truthful and respectful. I really appreciate that.

Bob

 

[bmugford]

Calling what someone did is asinine, crazy, silly
Saying untruthful things about other people
Calling belittling names
Saying untruthfully, or implying, that people are just hyping in service of some one else
Deliberately misrepresenting things said
Saying that people are working together when they are not
Saying people are #### who need to be brought into line
Saying the person has no sense and just says nothing
Belittling accomplishments of others in a demeaning way
(these are paraphrased)

Right, I get the general idea. I was more looking for actual examples on the forum.

Since is going to be a different bar for everyone, I was just looking for some actual examples as I rarely see what I would call "bullying".

So if someone makes ridiculous claims you are supposed to just be kind and say nothing?
If they are hyping some product in an obvious misleading or deceptive way you should just say nothing?
You should never question anyone's claims about their accomplishments, no matter how outlandish or unsubstantiated?

I just don't agree with those general statements in every situation.

Brad

 

[wwwweb]

I haven’t really noticed bullying on this forum, at times I do see people gang up on a seller if they are trying to defraud the forum with a name they don’t own, and for that they have it coming.

This forum is pretty respectful from others I have seen online. To bully is more so to pick on someone for no reason at all. In discussions things can get heated, we are talking about monetary instruments here, but I think all fair points can be made. Sometimes people call others out, and ask them to back up statements, as they are protecting another side of the forum, especially where newbies can read, and lose money based on incorrect facts.

If this is between xy and his words on that undocumented gtld page, I have seen a lot of xy interactions on the forums, I think he is a detail oriented, hard facts kind of guy, but always polite, but on point.

Gtlds tend to get blood boiling at times, as many have seen a lot of people lose money, and you really need advanced knowledge to invest in them, based on so many variables so people tend to speak up, and warn others about this.

I think the move namepros did to make sure facts are stated was the right one, hopefully everyone can move forward, and not take it so personally, as I don’t think it was meant to belittle, but more so force the facts.

 

[Internet.Domains]

I disagree. If you are making an argument there is absolutely no requirement to be kind.

Your right it is not a requirement and that is partly why society is dealing with the issue, especially amongst children. I am also not saying it should be a requirement.

For the sake of Namepros, if your going to be professional, hold a special badge, or you hold a high position of power or knowledge, it is most important to treat people with respect and kindness. Otherwise a toxic culture develops.

With more power comes more responsibility.

 

[Bob Hawkes]

So if someone makes ridiculous claims you are supposed to just be kind and say nothing.
If they are hyping some product in an obvious misleading or deceptive way you should just say nothing?
You should never question anyone's claims about their accomplishments, no matter how outlandish or unsubstantiated?

NO definitely you need to speak up in those situations!
The problem is people assume some cases are those when they are not.
If you think they are hyping a project (i.e. secret compensation) you should directly ask if they have any association with the product being promoted. I personally feel we should require that disclosure.
By the way re kindness, I agree it is too high a standard, but always good to see. As long as there is truth and respect I am totally alright. I think any fair minded person would find that I was not given truth nor respect in some, a very few, of the content now gone. It was a discussion about renewal rates, so it is not a matter I was trying to hype this or any other extension. But anyway, the thread is over sanitized now and I don't want this about me, but really I still ask, is telling the truth, being respectful and not misrepresenting things really too much to ask? You meet that standard always, Brad. Why not agree others should meet those standards?
Bob

 

[bmugford]

Your right it is not a requirement and that is partly why society is dealing with the issue, especially amongst children. I am also not saying it should be a requirement.

For the sake of Namepros, if your going to be professional, hold a special badge, or you hold a high position of power or knowledge, it is most important to treat people with respect and kindness. Otherwise a toxic culture develops.

With more power comes more responsibility.

Yeah, well another issue with society today is every kid gets trophies and awards for doing absolutely nothing outstanding. Maybe it breeds a thin skin and sense of entitlement.

There is a big difference between actual, objective bullying and just feeling bullied in an unreasonable manner.

I try to act in a respectful manner, unless there are extenuating circumstances (AKA if you are dealing shit expect to get it back).

Brad

 

[Internet.Domains]

Yeah, well another issue with society today is every kid gets trophies and awards for doing absolutely nothing outstanding. Maybe it breeds a thin skin and sense of entitlement.

There is a big difference between actual, objective bullying and just feeling bullied in an unreasonable manner.

I try to act in a respectful manner, unless there are extenuating circumstances (AKA if you are dealing sh*t expect to get it back).

Brad

I agree. I am not a fan of the "participation" trophy/awards philosophy either. We see a lot of that recently.

However, my disagreement about the participation philosophy does not give me an excuse to be disrespectful or unkind and it definately does not change the definition of bullying.

 

[bmugford]

I think any fair minded person would find that I was not given truth nor respect in some, a very few, of the content now gone. It was a discussion about renewal rates, so it is not a matter I was trying to hype this or any other extension. But anyway, the thread is over sanitized now and I don't want this about me, but really I still ask, is telling the truth, being respectful and not misrepresenting things really too much to ask? You meet that standard always, Brad. Why not agree others should meet those standards?
Bob

I did not really read through the thread.
My only involvement was posting in regards to renewing domains ahead of time in general.

I do agree others should generally not be a dick. At the same time who decides what is acceptable as it is so subjective?

If someone is making some wild claim, and I call it out in a skeptical way, am I now bullying?
Someone might consider that as bullying.

Brad

 

[bmugford]

I will also say, I do see why lolwarrior got some push back and negative comments to that thread.
In my view it seems more like a humble brag post than a post involving any real discussion.

https://www.namepros.com/threads/af...d-my-whole-live-portfolio-until-2025.1136623/

You are claiming a big sale without any other info, then make a comment like this -

"....and I am not bragging about it Still lot of CASH left as profit. Kudos to new gTLDs, love them!!!"

That just does not seem like a thread created for actual discussion IMO.

With that said, I still made comments on the subject.

Brad