NamesCon2020

Transfer complaint form

Located in Legal Discussion started by Bert23, Mar 28, 2017.

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  1. Bert23

    Bert23 Established Member

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    Anyone have experience of this on on the icann website?

    Trying to recover some domains stolen a few years back.

    Thanks bert.
     
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  2. alcy

    alcy Top Member VIP

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    what names?
     
  3. Steven McEvoy

    Steven McEvoy Underbyte.co Free Hosting with domain purchase VIP

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    a few years back? I think you might of miss the window there.
     
  4. Bert23

    Bert23 Established Member

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    Can't go into specifics on an open forum, but domains were regd over 20 years ago, after transfer out they weren't being used because the new "registrants" (Chinese I guess given the pattern of registry hopping) would have known they were hot property. I didn't have the thousands of dollars needed for an attorney at the time of theft. I decided to wait until they were put to use, which is now.
     
  5. alcy

    alcy Top Member VIP

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    trust me, everyone who talks about stolen domains on np, goes into specifics. its the first thing to do.. and the only thing to do.. if you want people not to buy them or report anything they may know aout them to you...

    not to mention there are pros on here who do investigating work on this .. and done it for years.. for many stolen domains... with great success... they can't help you if you give no name.

    gl
     
  6. Bert23

    Bert23 Established Member

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    Thanks for the advice, but I was really just wondering if anyone has direct experience of the complaint form.

    Every lawyer I spoke to wants a large bite of cash upfront. I don't have it, hence the need for info here.

    Also I must disagree with your point about sharing specifics, especially if the criminals in question are reading this forum. Why give them the heads up??
     
  7. alcy

    alcy Top Member VIP

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    well.. you said years ago... so I think they had already a decent headstart or headsup on you.
    plus you can also think of this as giving others headsup abotu who the criminals are.

    I'm just saying some nice folk on here can help you for free .. they did it before. it could be especially interesting for you, given you mentioned lawyer fees on several occasions.

    I just know they won't help you and cannot help you if they don't give names.

    but I wish you luck!
    cheers
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2017
  8. Kate

    Kate Domainosaurus Rex VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    I think you should post the names here, to make sure nobody buys them.
    Icann will not help. They don't address this kind of issues.

    UDRP has been sometimes used to recover stolen domains, but it didn't always work. It costs money too. So you might as well file a lawsuit, the question is in which jurisdiction.

    It's much too late I'm afraid, because domain thieves usually don't keep domains for long. Their aim is to resell them quite fast, and also blur the chain of ownership.
    The current owners might have bought the domains in good faith. Which doesn't mean they shouldn't have done more due diligence. That's why stolen domains should be advertised.
     
  9. Steven McEvoy

    Steven McEvoy Underbyte.co Free Hosting with domain purchase VIP

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    Agreed post them. @Bert23
     
  10. johnn

    johnn Top Member VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    The names may change hand 10 or more times in a couple of years.
    Post the names here so we will stay away from buying them.
     
  11. CollinsKele

    CollinsKele Established Member

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    im new . and this is the first tym im seeing this.. domain theft? wow

    for the domains iv sold i mk sure the buyer was one of the end users i contacted before i can transfer a domain first before they pay, but in d case of inbound(none yet) i think escrow will be the way forward..
     
  12. Bert23

    Bert23 Established Member

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    I'd like nothing more to go full disclosure but it would involve my folks home address as that was used before I could get a postbox re: Whois info.

    The domains are of course high profile given the date, Rick Schwartz league...

    There is a complaint form re unauthorised transfers on the icann website. Has anyone used it yes/no?

    Thank you.
     
  13. Kate

    Kate Domainosaurus Rex VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    This form ? https://forms.icann.org/en/resources/compliance/complaints/transfer/form

    Yes, I have. Maybe two few years ago, against register.com who arbitrarily denies transfers out and makes BS excuses. What Icann does is send the complaint to the registrar, and depending on their answer from registrar they close the case more or less immediately. Do not expect a lot from them. My case was very simple, involving a non-cooperative registrar refusing to deliver EPP codes.

    Why don't you try and you tell us ?

    The first step imo would be to turn to the original registrar but I suppose they are unwilling to help and that's why you are looking at the next step. Time is your enemy, digital records are not kept forever.

    Some lawyers specialize in domain names issues like UDRP but also theft. Maybe you should request just one consultation to determine what can be done. Don't hire an ordinary lawyer, but someone who is familiar with this stuff. An ordinary lawyer is going to be overwhelmed by the complexity and will charge you just to learn about that domain stuff.
     
  14. Abdullah Abdullah

    Abdullah Abdullah Top Member Epik.com Staff VIP

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    You might reach out to the excellent @TheLegendaryJP who might be able to help you out if you dont want to post the names here .

    Disclaimer : I never worked with JP so this isnt an endorsement nor NamePros 'endorsement of him but rather what I personally read here in the forums.
     
  15. jberryhill

    jberryhill Top Member John Berryhill, Ph.d., Esq. VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    Whatever might be the consequences of that form, it is not going to get your domains back.

    The only thing that will be checked is whether the transfer was compliant - i.e. did the registrar get an FOA (form of authorization) issued via the email address of the admin contact at the time of the transfer.

    You say "a few years ago", so there is some question as to whether or not you are within the time frame that registrars are supposed to keep the relevant data.

    But, even if the transfer was non-compliant, basically the registrar will get a wrist-slap from the compliance department. ICANN itself does not decide who is the "proper owner" of a domain name.
     
  16. Bert23

    Bert23 Established Member

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    Ah well gotta see the funny side, I had to notarise and FedEx a form just to update a company name in 2003 for the domains, and by 2010 they're whisked away via a hack, and a disposable email.

    That's progress.
    Thanks anyway.
     
  17. alcy

    alcy Top Member VIP

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    so to the best of your knowledge these have never sold or resold since stolen.. and appear to be in hands of original thiefs? since they are premium domains it could be possible to track their selling activity or activities through the years.

    well do keep posted on progress. hope you get your stuff back.
     
  18. Bert23

    Bert23 Established Member

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    No, each one has between 3-5 reg transfers since myself - probably between associates in china.

    I've been watching them all the while, sometimes they popped up on chip sale sites - I emailed the contacts but got no reply at the time - other than getting my mailboxes deactivated through repeated password guess attacks.

    I got fed up of this pattern and retreated.

    Strategy was to wait until they were used commercially and then hit back with a bit more force. One is not used, the other has recently been redirected to another fairly high profile Chinese android site from the looks of it.
     
  19. jberryhill

    jberryhill Top Member John Berryhill, Ph.d., Esq. VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    Then, in addition to the passage of time, the ICANN transfer form is a waste of time which will go nowhere. ICANN doesn't have a way to unwind this.
     
  20. consumers

    consumers Established Member ★★★★★★★★★★

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    The Transfer Dispute Resolution Policy (TDRP) is on the ICANN site (I can't post links)

    However, the registrar has to initiate the complaint so they probably won't do that unless you pay the legal fees and even then I am not sure they have to cooperate. it also says it has a "statute of limitations" of 6 months. I don't have any knowledge of how these disputes have gone in the past.
     
  21. urlurl

    urlurl Top Member VIP

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    ...if the names are being commercially used now, the current owner might have bought the name(s) from a legit seller and that seller may have bought from another legit seller... until you get back to the original thief. So all those people leading up to the current owner may not have been aware the name was stolen. that's a lot of time and transfers since the first alleged crime. its an uphill battle at best
     
  22. Bert23

    Bert23 Established Member

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    So legally that proves domains are not property.

    Like if a Picasso was stolen from a gallery and the legit owner tried to get it back some years later. (?)
     
  23. jberryhill

    jberryhill Top Member John Berryhill, Ph.d., Esq. VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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    Correct. Additionally, it is set up to look at a single transfer and whether that transfer was compliant. First off, if the admin email was hacked, then the transfer was probably "compliant" in the sense that the registrars received the correct communications during the transfer. Secondly, if the name has transferred twice, then the second transfer was definitely compliant.

    TDRP's virtually never happen. Since the policy was put in place years ago, I've only seen one, and I have consulted with a lot of registrars.
     
  24. Kate

    Kate Domainosaurus Rex VIP ★★★★★★★★★★

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  25. Bert23

    Bert23 Established Member

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    Many thanks for that info. 5 lawyers gave feedback on my case, udrp not the way to go, but instead forcing the owners (current I guess) to turn up in a Virginia courtroom.

    As I understand it Verisign can technically restore a domain from a Chinese registry if ordered to by a court.

    They will most certainly have representation in court and claim good faith. It seems unlikely that such expensive assets can transfer without a chain of receipts and a paper trail.
     

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