Teach a man to fish - Co-creating Abundance

[Rob Monster]

You all know the famous proverb from Lao Tzu:

I think it also applies to domaining.

I believe in teaching people to become sovereign, so they can provide for themselves, provide for their families, provide for their communities and also have time to contemplate the meaning of life.

So with this in mind, I have sponsored a number of initiatives, which I will not name here because that would be promotional and the mods don't like that.

However, I do want to share something and invite input to it. About 6 weeks ago, Epik acquired 2 brands that had training products associated with them: DomainFlippa and Domain Graduate.

The Founder of Domain Graduate, Sean Stafford, and I have a shared passion for teaching people how to become successful domainers. This project fits my personal interest and calling: (digital) empowerment.

In the past, Domain Graduate and Domain Flippa were both paid courses. The existence of a fee implicitly meant that most people would never participate since there was a large toll at the entrance.

When Epik acquired these brands, it was with the specific goal of making the pie bigger. We want to help teach a lot more people to be good at domaining by tapping the wisdom of those who mastered it.

With this mind, I am sharing a living draft, of what is to become Domain Graduate 2.0. It is the collective wisdom of some professional domainers. You can download a copy here:

https://my.armored.net/index.php/s/dG7MkwJAp9H3L43

This document will continue to be iterated, so if you see issues or opportunities to improve, we'll use this thread to invite discussion about how to empower more people to become effective domainers.

As for the draft document, here is my ask:

- If you have time, review it and send any editorial feedback to @DomainGraduate.

- Comment publicly if you like to discuss or share some technique that you think belongs in the course.

- Feel free to invite non-NP members to visit this page to retrieve the draft course.

We will add an acknowledgement section collating the input and refrencing the attributed contributions. That section might get large, and that is fine!

In about one week, we'll have a final version and we'll publish it with a beautiful cover, and put it online at a new and improved DomainGraduate.com so anyone can download it.

After that, we plan to recruit translators to localize the document and where appropriate add local resource tips. Different countries will have different versions to reflect language, ccTLD, local laws and local customs.

Finally, for anyone who wants to contribute to the cause, domain name donations are welcome to the eRise Foundation, for which a latest update is described here.

So, that's it. Tell us what you think.

On behalf of the Domain Graduate Team:

Rob Monster, @Abdullah Abdullah, and Sean Stafford

 

[Brands.International]

You all know the famous proverb from Lao Tzu:

Show attachment 134962

I think it also applies to domaining.

I believe in teaching people to become sovereign, so they can provide for themselves, provide for their families, provide for their communities and also have time to contemplate the meaning of life.

So with this in mind, I have sponsored a number of initiatives, which I will not name here because that would be promotional and the mods don't like that.

However, I do want to share something and invite input to it. About 6 weeks ago, Epik acquired 2 brands that had training products associated with them: DomainFlippa and Domain Graduate.

The Founder of Domain Graduate, Sean Stafford, and I have a shared passion for teaching people how to become successful domainers. This project fits my personal interest and calling: (digital) empowerment.

In the past, Domain Graduate and Domain Flippa were both paid courses. The existence of a fee implicitly meant that most people would never participate since there was a large toll at the entrance.

When Epik acquired these brands, it was with the specific goal of making the pie bigger. We want to help teach a lot more people to be good at domaining by tapping the wisdom of those who mastered it.

With this mind, I am sharing a living draft, of what is to become Domain Graduate 2.0. It is the collective wisdom of some professional domainers. You can download a copy here:

https://my.armored.net/index.php/s/dG7MkwJAp9H3L43

This document will continue to be iterated, so if you see issues or opportunities to improve, we'll use this thread to invite discussion about how to empower more people to become effective domainers.

As for the draft document, here is my ask:

- If you have time, review it and send any editorial feedback to @DomainGraduate.

- Comment publicly if you like to discuss or share some technique that you think belongs in the course.

- Feel free to invite non-NP members to visit this page to retrieve the draft course.

We will add an acknowledgement section collating the input and refrencing the attributed contributions. That section might get large, and that is fine!

In about one week, we'll have a final version and we'll publish it with a beautiful cover, and put it online at a new and improved DomainGraduate.com so anyone can download it.

After that, we plan to recruit translators to localize the document and where appropriate add local resource tips. Different countries will have different versions to reflect language, ccTLD, local laws and local customs.

Finally, for anyone who wants to contribute to the cause, domain name donations are welcome to the eRise Foundation, for which a latest update is described here.

So, that's it. Tell us what you think.

On behalf of the Domain Graduate Team:

Rob Monster, @Abdullah Abdullah, and Sean Stafford

Thanks for your invitation to tell you what I think. Well, I do not know if I read that 100% correctly, but it seems to me that:

1. You invited Namepros users to work for free (spending their time and intelect) on your own Domain Graduate 2.0 project - which will be for free as you informed (but if you maybe decide later to ask for small fee, certainly it will be great as well). So basically we should be working on your class/book for free, giving our knowledge/time/energy/focus/attention to build an asset, which belongs exclusively to you. Why so?

2. You have provided links to 2 of you projects, DomainFlippa and Domain Graduate, which is clearly promotional - why you have not started that in Promotional section, where it does belong?

3. "When .... acquired these brands, it was with the specific goal of making the pie bigger."

I have already heard about that infamous PIE at least 100x here - If I might ask, whose PIE is this? Your PIE will be surely bigger (you are an CEO of registrar), but PIE for the rest of us (domain investors) will be definitely smaller. There is a specific number of end users at any certain time, and when you increase the number of domain investors, the PIE will not get bigger, it will get smaller for all of us here (domain investors), except you (the registrar). THE SMALLER PIE. So let's call it exactly as it is. Once again : smaller, not bigger. Or bigger for you, but smaller for us. So why we should help you increase numbers of our competitors (in addition to build your company asset for free)?

4. I personally think every domain investor should really mind his own domain portfolio.
99% of the guys here are loosing money, and they do not have money. I think it is mainly because they do not take care about their own business, but largely discussing "personalities" of domain industry. This is one of many recent threads, where it seems that we should be helping to build your company (and we should do it for free, because it is for greater good).

For those who think I am bit harsh here, you need to understand: next time when you will have to pay your medical bill or your rental, it will be YOU who will need to pay that bill. It wil not be ..., and it will not be "domain industry". It will be YOU . So YOU need to get money for your time/energy/focus/attention/contribution - not some promises of better future for everyone, but actual money, so you can provide for yourself and your families.

And if actual money are not there, you need to re-focus your attention back to what matters, which is your business (or you will stay poor, or bootstrapping, forever). This is particularly valid for those who are younger, inexperienced, and from emerging countries - focus your attention where it is really needed - to your own portfolio, and to your own sales. And then, AFTER you have enought money and you are already bored and do not know what to do with your free time, you can then help for free to build/improve a wealthy private western company (or "domain community", or whatever will be trending at that time).

But for now, please focus your attention to your own matters.

Thank you for understanding

 

[Ategy]

Updated proverb:
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day ...
Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime ...
.. until too many men learn to fish and all the fish are gone!

Anyhow .. environmental depression aside .. the fate for the oceans isn't necessarily the same for domains .. more domainers does mean more competition and higher acquisition prices .. but it also means more liquidity.

I quickly skimmed through the book .. and there's a lot of good stuff in there .. and a lot of outdated/filler info. Not sure if people need to know about parking in 2019 .. or at least not so much.

Will go through it a bit more in the days ahead. Definitely take your time on this ... usually 1 week to @Rob Monster = about 17 hours .. lol .. this definitely needs a significant amount of work and updating. I would avoid putting a time limit on it and instead give it enough time to get it right!

Only other credible one i kno, cost hundreds ($499 lifetime)
Great, updated, but yu cant go wrong with free
Give credit, where credit’s due.!! Cant wait try!!
Samer

@Michael Cyger's DNAcademy is a great course, yes it isn't cheap .. but it's worth the value for those with long term goals of being a domainer and are willing to work. He is an amazing teacher!

That being said .. when it comes to domains .. yes .. 100% you CAN go wrong with free. It all depends on the content. There are so many nuances to domaining .. and if someone only gets some of it but not enough of it, then it can be devastating! Look all the majority of horrible domains we see all over NamePros .. NamePros itself is the largest repository of domainer information in the world .. all free .. yet look at the results. The problem with teaching people about domaining .. is that it's fairly complex ... but in order to be a good domainer you also need outstanding language and marketing skills .. which obviously can't be taught as part of a quick domainer course (paid or free).

 

[Rob Monster]

So you're a business and it's not about money?

Epik being mentioned 32 times, is not meant to drive traffic to Epik, resulting in sales (money)?

You starting threads on .org and dash .com, mentioning big sales, was not meant to drive regs?

You posting a spreadsheet with 4 letter .orgs was not meant for people to start regging?

The stuff with all these other countries is because you want to tap those markets to make............money.

etc.

@Ategy.com don't overthink it. The goal of a registrar is to make money. GoDaddy wasn't passing out $1 coupons for new regs and transfers to save the world, it was to get people into the GoDaddy ecosystem, hoping they'll stay and continue to spend money.

It's business, business is about making money. Don't try to make it bigger than it is.

Rob, why not simply make your own ebook, called it Monster's Guide To Domaining. If you feel you have knowledge to share, get it organized, knock an ebook out.

-------------
Didn't see this thread in my New Posts. Thanks mods for moving it to the right forum/Promotional.

I am not an editor of the book. I am sponsoring the production because I thought there was a need following the discussion that happened here:

https://www.namepros.com/threads/poll-for-the-goodwill-of-domains-digital-empowerment-brand.1157478

People said that giving away empowerment grants without a training program was a train wreck waiting to happen. So I listened to that advice.

We acquired Domain Graduate because Mike Cyger would not take my call. This product is of course not as good, but it is perhaps the 80 for the 0. We did the same with escrow -- made it free.

As for the business model, of course we have to make a margin. However, I can charge a 9% commission while helping someone sell a domain for 5X for their reserve price. That is co-creating abundance.

I completely accept that these capabilities may not appeal to some domain industry old-timers. On the other hand, some long-time domainers may have the capacity to suspend disbelief.

I realize there is this chronic need to drawl parallels with various carpetbaggers that passed through. I don't think that is fair, and I think the deliverables in the last 12 months show there is substance here.

As I said before, I don't really care who makes money, nor who takes credit. You can compare Epik to Godaddy if you like, but our mindsets are quite different and they would probably acknowledge that.

Finally, I am not here to make enemies. To the contrary, I am here to listen to smart people and to empower people who can think beyond themselves. If that's you, then you are my friend.

 

[Rob Monster]

Small Christmas gift from @Ala Dadan -- the @DomainGraduate eBook is now online:

https://domaingraduate.com/book/

No login required. No payment. No download required.

The PDF download is still there.

The translated versions of both will follow.

 

[bmugford]

Overall I would say there is some useful information, especially for a beginner.

It does need better formatting as the information kind of seems all over the place, not always in a logical order.

Still I don't think it would really help much with choosing specific domains, knowing what to pay, what to ask, how to negotiate, etc.

To me it would be like reading a basic book on stocks or options. It might help with a foundation, but when it came to actual investing there is still a lot to learn.

Brad

 

[Lox]

The next step is to create a #1 101 book ....the end-user edu book:

Title: The Value of Domain Name
Subtitle: Expand and protect your cyberspace.
The message: You need more than 1 domain name / extension! Find out why!

Where the word domainsquatter or cybersquatter is explained (without defense) , where domain investor (holder) is on spotlight ....

If well written/ compiled, it can be dispatched across the registrars space.

 

[Rob Monster]

More record-breaking domain sales.

More auction events like NamesCon where big sales are made.

More domain brokers/domain sellers who are paid after a sale is made.

BPOs/call centers with domain sellers/domain brokers who will scout for end-users and who will educate them on the benefits of protecting their brand with a domain name.

It helps if the domain- sellers can recommend/sell turn-key solutions or packaged solutions(web dev, hosting, SEO, PPC, etc.) since most decision-makers end-users, domain-buyers who need convincing to buy domains do not have a ready team of web developers yet.

End goal is to have domains that are developed so end-users will get their money's worth and will be encouraged to buy more domains at premium prices.

Who will domain investors sell to if we don't have end-users to benefit from the domains we sell?

Indeed, enlarging the end-users pie is the key.

Thanks Anne.

Where I see emerging market leaders doing great is in a few areas:

1. Outbound domain selling: Let's face it. Most US domainers are not going to be promoting their expiry streams for which they did not get inbound inquiries. And yet, right now, today, I see hundreds of domains expiring on Epik and elsewhere that a bit of outbound research would surely yield significant sales. Guys like @rohitgoyal have perfected that method and have now started to teach others.

2. Brokerage, Leases and Arbitrage: Related to the above, I have seen countless examples of transactions being done simply because an intrepid entrepreneurs is willing to take the risk by securing the opportunity to market a domain that is perhaps premium but for which the current domain owner is not willing or able to do the spadework.

3. Development: This is where I think the explosion will happen. The tools for developing have become amazing. It is now possible to take a decent domain and bundle it with a move-in ready software solution and sell off a developed site. Epik aims to participate here to a meaningful degree with a range of tools and adapted marketplaces to help folks buy and sell entire digital businesses.

All of this makes the pie bigger.

And when people have windfalls, many of them give back through teaching and philanthropy.

Regards,
Rob

 

[Rob Monster]

Sales isn't my forte so seeing prime movers address the need is good news for me.

Here is an example of what I am talking about.

I am looking at a client who is in the process of dropping 100+ 5 letter domains ending in co.com.

Example: imkco.com

He did not get inquiries so he will drop them.

However, outbound has never been tried. Emerging market people are well-equipped to do this work.

 

[JB Lions]

So with this in mind, I have sponsored a number of initiatives, which I will not name here because that would be promotional and the mods don't like that.

First, seems like some blatant disrespect to Namepros and their staff. Said you will not name your other initiatives, then proceed to do exactly that linking to:

DomainFlippa
Domain Graduate
Personal Calling thread
Armored.net
erise.org
Philanthropy thread

----------------
As far as this project. Probably didn't sell in the past because there are better ones out there and free. Ones from Estibot, Escrow, one by Andrew Alleman - How To To Sell On Domain Marketplace, much better than this one. I have all those in a folder and more. Free.

I went over this one and it was expected. Lots of affiliates do this, I have newsletters for my sites, Adam Dicker did this, where it's "free" but with affiliate links or promotion. So you want people to spend their time tidying this up to help promote Epik? They're the first registrar mentioned, first parking company mentioned etc.

Then we have threads with domainers complaining about stuff like bots and GD auctions, and auctions getting bid up. So let's train some more competition?

 

[Ategy]

I actually don't really have a problem with Epik being used as an example when talking about registrars. It's a good registrar .. good prices .. low commissions .. on a value/technical level, I don't have issues recommending Epik. (As long as it's accurate and ethical and not what @bmugford pointed out above .. although in fairness it is a very rough draft .. and honestly .. that shady style of writing isn't much of a surprise when looking at the book as a whole .. partially why I said I think a fresh start would be better to clear out all that questionable stuff)

That being said .. beyond Epik, there needs to be an obvious focus on GoDaddy's aftermarket simply because literally half of all expired domains in the world pass through their aftermarket. Sedo and even BrandBucket etc should be covered as well. I actually like Epik's wholesale aftermarket .. but unfortunately the expiration stream still needs to grow to get more .. with this year's growth, hopefully we'll see more growth there sooner than later.


But all that part of the discussion is missing the point here ...
I think what some are having a hard time understanding is how getting more domainers in the industry helps grow the pie? If you have a pie with 6 people .. nummm nummm nummm .. if you have a pie with 60 people it's indeed nothing but crumbs.

Maybe if we had a better auction marketplace (see that email you missed monday/tuesday .. lol), then more new domainers would at least give us more liquidity.

What's needed is ironically exactly what YOU keep telling us !!! .. Which is indeed to grow the pie ... but the pie isn't domainers .. it's end-user capital ... so we either need more end users .. or we need to better educate and inform end users on how the value of a good $3,000 is actually more profitable to them than if they acquired a $10 handreg. Or how a $50k domain is better for them long term than a $3k domain.


All that said .. sometimes you have an unmentioned detail that really clarifies everything .. lol .. kinda waiting for that ah-ha moment where you clarify what we still don't quite understand where you're going and how this indeed grows the pie ...

 

[Rob Monster]

Thanks to @Mod Team Bravo and other Mods for moving this thread out of the status of "Promotional" and to the more reasonable and benign category of "Free Stuff". We'll take it.

Quick update on DomainGraduate.com:

https://domaingraduate.com/

A big new section has been added for OUTBOUND. Thanks to @rohitgoyal for his input along with great input from @DomainGraduate founder Sean Stafford and @Riacontents. It might be one of the most helpful sections in the whole course. And it is all free!

Continued suggestions are welcome. Thanks to the co-creators!

 

[bmugford]

I skimmed over the information. It is not until page 40 of 74 that it starts to touch on aftermarket sales.
I think a lot of this information is certainly outdated and could be streamlined, removed, or moved to a different course.

The buying & selling part could be its own guide, and then domain monetization could be another.

Some of the information in there go against comments you have made, like shooting for the moon on pricing.
There is talk of buying a domain for $10 and selling it for $300 for instance and investors being too greedy with their pricing.

I will say it does touch on unsold domains being a liability, which is good.
Many courses gloss over that and just count the wins, not the losses.

Brad

 

[JB Lions]

I don't want to "keep people ignorant" so:

The one I mentioned, not sure if it's still available but - https://domainnamewire.com/2014/05/21/how-to-sell-domain-names-on-marketplaces/

Free tutorial videos:
https://www.estibot.com/guide

Appraisal Guide
Lead Guide
Whois Guide
Expiring Domains Guide
Lead Score Tool Guide
Brandable Domain Generator Guide
Domain Name Parser Guide
Domain Name Keyword Extractor Guide
Domain Trademark Checker Guide
Domain Availability Checker Guide
Bulk DNS Checker Guide
Domain Categorization Guide
Domain Web Crawler Guide
Business Locator Guide
Domain Generator Guide
Typo Generator Guide
Organic Traffic Checker Guide
Domain List Filter Guide
Understanding the Scan Queue

Just checked, videos are working.

There is this domain forum, full of free info - https://www.namepros.com

Maybe a caring person can make a thread and put all this type of stuff in 1 post. To help the world out, co-create abundance, insert some other marketing phrases here

 

[Ategy]

Who is your "target audience" for the book?

Would a course have helped you at the beginning versus blowing your nest-egg on stuff that nobody wants?

I'm not sure I would have found such a book to be honest (although I'm sure there are some who would). I bought my first domain 20 years ago to start what would be a huge DJ online community .. then over the years I grabbed a few more domains here and there. Even after FB effectively killed most online communities, I still kept the domains and grabbed some here and there for "future development". So I actually had a lot of domains before I started "domaining". I think that's the story of a lot of domainers. Probably the more successful ones as well, as they could understand the perspective of the end user.

Some of that material is dated, and Sean knows it. I think we'll have to redact that. We need more editors, which is why I decided it was a good idea to crowdsource the content before the translators get busy.

That's why I was saying I think a week is rather (/extremely) optimistic.

I think a ground up would probably be the better choice .. but as a few of us have pointed out .. our fear is that even if it's significantly better, someone is going to finish reading the book and think they're be able to be successful domainers. But domaining is so much more than the technical aspects. There's phonetics, language, wordplay, business niche knowledge, cultural references, and several other elements .. combined with needing a good base in marketing and an excellent command of English. Obviously those sort of things could be part of a course .. but again .. we're talking a completely different book.

I'm certainly not saying it's not possible for someone to come in and succeed .. and a book most certainly could help .. but domaining just isn't for everyone.

How many people who started 6 to 18 months ago actually made a profit .. or are even still here? Of those how many even have a domain that will ever sell?

Now honestly ask if that book would have changed the results in any significant way? Help a few definitely, yes .. help some lose less (but still lose), yes .. but you're still looking at a very low success rate, particular with the current content.

All that said .. if someone is going to start domaining anyways, then extra information certainly can only help. The real question is .. will they find it? And will it be enough? Or will they think it's enough and actually overspend thinking that they know enough just because they "finished the book"?

More importantly, the final question is .. are you ok with there being a book that while helping people, still will have a significant failure rate?

There is no wrong answer there .. even DNAcademy likely has a far from 100% success rate. It is far and away the best course .. but the rest are really really low, so the bar is very low. The bonus there is that @Michael Cyger and now his assistant (Aline) are also there for follow up and to help answer critical questions in crucial first few months people start up after the course. So it's far more than a static book ... it's a course with some great coaching.


I think one reason some of us are having difficulties with this, is understanding your global vision for it? Is it a static book people read and that's it? Is it a course with a teacher(s) to really enhance what's in the pages? Who are you targeting as readers/students? And why?

I think for a lot of domainers, the ultimate goal is not more domainers to share the current pie .. but in finding and educating end users to grow the pie. Offer branding basics to business owners and start-up entrepreneurs .. help them understand how spending $3000 on a great domain is actually a better investment than a $10 handreg. If we figure out how to get that message out there in force, then that's how we all make real money (check your email btw .. lol)!

 

[bmugford]

Actually, not everyone is quite that cynical. It seems crazy in this day and age that capitalists are not just selfish pricks but indeed this happens. I call it enlightened capitalism. I am refining the model but it is actually possible to do well by doing good, and to do good while doing well by co-creating abundance. Feel free to not participate but if you like the idea of teaching people to fish, then fish. However, scarcity minded people will never point out their fishing holes because they think that the God of the universe who made the fish in the first place, can't show you a better fishing hole. I do understand the mindset. It must be suffocating.

It is just amazing how your altruism lines up so well with your own self interests.
What are the odds?

The Epik promotion in the manual is also at the detriment of the information.

For instance -

Here is a list of some of the most common places that to buy and sell. They are listed here in the order of the most time I spend using them

1.) Epik.com
2.) GoDaddy Auctions
3.) Sedo.com
4.) NamePros.com
5.) Snapnames.com

What nonsense. Who spends the most time on the Epik marketplace?
Take out the obvious self promotion and maybe people will take it more seriously.

Brad

 

[Ategy]

You know .. in all fairness .. a lot people did say that anybody coming on the empowerment program would need serious education. I just think that most of us thought it would be more of class type training in a (virtual) setting where people would better absorb the information than just a booklet. I personally thought what you bought was more in tune with DNA, with a teacher and help, tests, mentorship, chats, etc. So I really understand the confusion from both sides here.

And I'll also be fair in saying that a lot of what Rob does .. does indeed genuinely go beyond just the money. That's not to say he doesn't want Epik to make money and be profitable .. if not then all our domains there would ironically be in danger.

He's trying to do things that in his mind is good for the community (and yes .. Epik) .. whether each thing is or isn't is definitely a matter of each person's opinion. But yes, along with participating here and also creating as the CEO of Epik, he's going to refer to Epik and some of the projects he's along the way. He's got so much going on and honestly trying to get a lot of things in place for domainers (and yes .. Epik), that I think it's a bit much that people hold that against him when he talks about them. The whole point of NamePros is to discuss things in the industry .. I really he should be able to talk about these things and not feel guilty about refering to Epik if indeed it's something that relates to Epik.

I for one would much rather a registrar CEO participate in an open forum and disagree with me, but still interact .. than what every other CEO in the industry does .. which is not consult or interact with domainers as they stay behind closed doors. Like him or not .. disagree with him or not .. it's better for the domain community that he's here as a registrar CEO.

That being said .. most certainly people are allowed to have their opinions on each specific thing, and there's nothing wrong with disagreeing with something he's doing/planning, as is the case here. I've exchanged quite a bit with Rob over the last few months, and while I definitely do not always agree with him, if there's one thing I have to give him credit for, it's that if you have an idea that's better than his, and you can convince him of it .. then he'll pivot or change or tweak. He'll put up a fight if he thinks you're wrong .. but I respect someone who disagrees with me AS LONG AS they can justify their point of view (even if I think/know it's wrong) .. more importantly, I've personally found that indeed he does listen and give things a chance. (Although sometimes I feel he's got too much going on to truly focus on one thing at a time .. but .. he's developed a heck of a lot of tools and features for the industry over the last few months .. which is a result of that measure once, cut twice mentality and rushed approach)

I do think that he should be a bit more diplomatic at times, like the "Lame" comment I found to be out of place, but there are very few people around here who are constantly trolled as much as Rob, so by comparison I suppose "Lame" is pretty tame and not very offensive even if it wasn't productive. Doesn't excuse it in this case, but I've seen much worse directed at him, and he didn't care and more importantly, nobody came to his defence. (Just to be clear, trolling was NOT the case with @Brands.International, as I think his post made sense and was completely justified from his perspective, and I think he said what many were indeed thinking, including myself on many points)


That being said .. back to the book thing ... I think the people having problems with this, are also genuinely sceptical of the empowerment program working and that it could indeed build up too many false expectations in people who are already faced with more life challenges than most of us. Without naming names (NOT Rob), in other non-Rob threads, I often confront people who boast ideas that I think are dangerous for domainers (new or otherwise), and back to this specific case, I think what we had all originally envisioned was a full interactive course and complete training, as opposed to a very incomplete and outdated booklet. There's a reason why GoDaddy and Uniregistry send their staff to customised courses at @Michael Cyger's DNAcademy, and it's specifically because it's not a book/guide, but a training/course.

But to be clear .. my concerns here are most certainly not specific to this book nor specifically against Rob's initiative .. it's a broader concern that too often there's an image that domaining is easy or quick money .. but the reality is that it just isn't an industry that is made for most people. Yes you can teach some fundamentals .. but as I've said for long before this discussion ever started .. domaining is about so much more than just domains.

Yes it could be possible to help boost people up to having a better chance of succeeding with domains .. but it most certainly isn't going to be with this book ... UNLESS .. the person has very-VERY strong existing marketing and language skills .. if those were a very strict prerequisite, then the chances would be better (and even then the book needs to be re-written) .. but most people just don't have that experience or knowledge .. and while it most definitely is something that can be learned by some .. it's not going to be in a booklet like this which isn't even complete on even just the domain part.


As for China .. there will never be another China, simply because there is no other China. China has the fastest growing economy (by overall volume) in the world .. combined with the even stronger factor of their language, keyboard interactions and culture being very prone to the accumulation of relatively short liquid domains. Yes there is strong growth in India and other parts of the world, but the demand will not be for the same type of domains that intersect as profoundly as was the case with "CHIPs" and numerics, which are much more limited in supply than the alternatives most other nations would be prone to using.

Again though .. in Rob's defence .. it's not the first time he's talked about his thinking of development the domain market in areas of the world where the domain per capita ratio is low. It's a fair point, that whether you agree with him or not, is not just something he's making up out of thin air here just for the sake of defending his point.

That being said .. I think the counter point is also very justified in their thinking that more domainers is not really a solution, and that the likelihood is that new domainers will ultimately focus on existing markets than wasting time in the difficult process of developing new ones.

Again though .. global and general population (end user) domain education is a good thing *IF* it can be done .. and while I don't always see it .. I respect that Rob is one of the few people in the industry who is actually trying to do something that he things could spark growth in new regions and in turn get businesses in those regions to get online and get a good domain. Some might see it as a lot of effort for adding a few drops in the ocean, and you might think it's the wrong approach, but it's not disingenuous, and while I have a hard time sometimes seeing his grand vision, I can say that Rob is not starting these threads simply for the sake of promoting Epik.


That being said .. I am still concerned about the expectation that a quick edit of a frightfully insufficient, outdated and incomplete booklet, is going help newcomers succeed where they didn't in the past. As I said .. even DNA can't do magic and is not nearly a 100% guarantee of success, and it's vastly more interactive and complex and developed than this is .. so what are the chances here? Rob .. you've truly done some great things for domainers .. quickly added lots of great features to Epik .. have surpassed everyone's timeline expectations on multitude of great side-projects .. but getting people to become viable and profitable domainers, while at first glance might seem easy .. truly is not .. and it can indeed be dangerous if it's not done right.

It's going to take real teachers and ongoing mentors and interactive course content .. and even then .. the failure rate will be high because domaining truly just isn't for everyone. But at least with that people will have a chance (otherwise I'm very worried and concerned for the financial well-being of someone who is given the expectation of succeeding at domaining after just reading a booklet). But it's not a week long thing .. you'll need teachers and mentors .. and to teach those teachers domaining, or teach domainers to teach ... all while understanding that most domainers do rightfully see this as simply helping new competition.


PS1 .. @Brands.International .. you are not lame!
PS2 .. @Rob Monster .. you are not a publicity seeker!

 

[Rob Monster]

You know .. in all fairness .. a lot people did say that anybody coming on the empowerment program would need serious education. I just think that most of us thought it would be more of class type training in a (virtual) setting where people would better absorb the information than just a booklet. I personally thought what you bought was more in tune with DNA, with a teacher and help, tests, mentorship, chats, etc. So I really understand the confusion from both sides here.

And I'll also be fair in saying that a lot of what Rob does .. does indeed genuinely go beyond just the money. That's not to say he doesn't want Epik to make money and be profitable .. if not then all our domains there would ironically be in danger.

He's trying to do things that in his mind is good for the community (and yes .. Epik) .. whether each thing is or isn't is definitely a matter of each person's opinion. But yes, along with participating here and also creating as the CEO of Epik, he's going to refer to Epik and some of the projects he's along the way. He's got so much going on and honestly trying to get a lot of things in place for domainers (and yes .. Epik), that I think it's a bit much that people hold that against him when he talks about them. The whole point of NamePros is to discuss things in the industry .. I really he should be able to talk about these things and not feel guilty about refering to Epik if indeed it's something that relates to Epik.

I for one would much rather a registrar CEO participate in an open forum and disagree with me, but still interact .. than what every other CEO in the industry does .. which is not consult or interact with domainers as they stay behind closed doors. Like him or not .. disagree with him or not .. it's better for the domain community that he's here as a registrar CEO.

That being said .. most certainly people are allowed to have their opinions on each specific thing, and there's nothing wrong with disagreeing with something he's doing/planning, as is the case here. I've exchanged quite a bit with Rob over the last few months, and while I definitely do not always agree with him, if there's one thing I have to give him credit for, it's that if you have an idea that's better than his, and you can convince him of it .. then he'll pivot or change or tweak. He'll put up a fight if he thinks you're wrong .. but I respect someone who disagrees with me AS LONG AS they can justify their point of view (even if I think/know it's wrong) .. more importantly, I've personally found that indeed he does listen and give things a chance. (Although sometimes I feel he's got too much going on to truly focus on one thing at a time .. but .. he's developed a heck of a lot of tools and features for the industry over the last few months .. which is a result of that measure once, cut twice mentality and rushed approach)

I do think that he should be a bit more diplomatic at times, like the "Lame" comment I found to be out of place, but there are very few people around here who are constantly trolled as much as Rob, so by comparison I suppose "Lame" is pretty tame and not very offensive even if it wasn't productive. Doesn't excuse it in this case, but I've seen much worse directed at him, and he didn't care and more importantly, nobody came to his defence. (Just to be clear, trolling was NOT the case with @Brands.International, as I think his post made sense and was completely justified from his perspective, and I think he said what many were indeed thinking, including myself on many points)


That being said .. back to the book thing ... I think the people having problems with this, are also genuinely sceptical of the empowerment program working and that it could indeed build up too many false expectations in people who are already faced with more life challenges than most of us. Without naming names (NOT Rob), in other non-Rob threads, I often confront people who boast ideas that I think are dangerous for domainers (new or otherwise), and back to this specific case, I think what we had all originally envisioned was a full interactive course and complete training, as opposed to a very incomplete and outdated booklet. There's a reason why GoDaddy and Uniregistry send their staff to customised courses at @Michael Cyger's DNAcademy, and it's specifically because it's not a book/guide, but a training/course.

But to be clear .. my concerns here are most certainly not specific to this book nor specifically against Rob's initiative .. it's a broader concern that too often there's an image that domaining is easy or quick money .. but the reality is that it just isn't an industry that is made for most people. Yes you can teach some fundamentals .. but as I've said for long before this discussion ever started .. domaining is about so much more than just domains.

Yes it could be possible to help boost people up to having a better chance of succeeding with domains .. but it most certainly isn't going to be with this book ... UNLESS .. the person has very-VERY strong existing marketing and language skills .. if those were a very strict prerequisite, then the chances would be better (and even then the book needs to be re-written) .. but most people just don't have that experience or knowledge .. and while it most definitely is something that can be learned by some .. it's not going to be in a booklet like this which isn't even complete on even just the domain part.


As for China .. there will never be another China, simply because there is no other China. China has the fastest growing economy (by overall volume) in the world .. combined with the even stronger factor of their language, keyboard interactions and culture being very prone to the accumulation of relatively short liquid domains. Yes there is strong growth in India and other parts of the world, but the demand will not be for the same type of domains that intersect as profoundly as was the case with "CHIPs" and numerics, which are much more limited in supply than the alternatives most other nations would be prone to using.

Again though .. in Rob's defence .. it's not the first time he's talked about his thinking of development the domain market in areas of the world where the domain per capita ratio is low. It's a fair point, that whether you agree with him or not, is not just something he's making up out of thin air here just for the sake of defending his point.

That being said .. I think the counter point is also very justified in their thinking that more domainers is not really a solution, and that the likelihood is that new domainers will ultimately focus on existing markets than wasting time in the difficult process of developing new ones.

Again though .. global and general population (end user) domain education is a good thing *IF* it can be done .. and while I don't always see it .. I respect that Rob is one of the few people in the industry who is actually trying to do something that he things could spark growth in new regions and in turn get businesses in those regions to get online and get a good domain. Some might see it as a lot of effort for adding a few drops in the ocean, and you might think it's the wrong approach, but it's not disingenuous, and while I have a hard time sometimes seeing his grand vision, I can say that Rob is not starting these threads simply for the sake of promoting Epik.


That being said .. I am still concerned about the expectation that a quick edit of a frightfully insufficient, outdated and incomplete booklet, is going help newcomers succeed where they didn't in the past. As I said .. even DNA can't do magic and is not nearly a 100% guarantee of success, and it's vastly more interactive and complex and developed than this is .. so what are the chances here? Rob .. you've truly done some great things for domainers .. quickly added lots of great features to Epik .. have surpassed everyone's timeline expectations on multitude of great side-projects .. but getting people to become viable and profitable domainers, while at first glance might seem easy .. truly is not .. and it can indeed be dangerous if it's not done right.

It's going to take real teachers and ongoing mentors and interactive course content .. and even then .. the failure rate will be high because domaining truly just isn't for everyone. But at least with that people will have a chance (otherwise I'm very worried and concerned for the financial well-being of someone who is given the expectation of succeeding at domaining after just reading a booklet). But it's not a week long thing .. you'll need teachers and mentors .. and to teach those teachers domaining, or teach domainers to teach ... all while understanding that most domainers do rightfully see this as simply helping new competition.


PS1 .. @Brands.International .. you are not lame!
PS2 .. @Rob Monster .. you are not a publicity seeker!

Thanks @Ategy.com for a thoughtful (late night) commentary. I will address a few points:

- I am a big fan of emerging markets. During 2019 Epik attracted a lot of domain portfolios from people in emerging markets. On average, the domain registration quality is better than what we see from developed markets in terms of near-term selling potential. Yes, there are exceptions but what I see in places like Nigeria, Indonesia and Vietnam, and I sure elsewhere, is a spirit of camraderie where folks are teaching each other what works.

- We are expanding the editorial team. We added @Sarah Frank whose one-time calling was to be a teacher and does a lot of our new hire training. She will be working with Sean Stafford, founder of @DomainGraduate to collate the editorial input and progress this first version of the course. She will also be able to coordinate with the translators so we don't have too much chaos as the course evolves. If folks have input, there are now 2 contacts for direct dialog about edits.

- As for Mike Cyger, obviously I respect the guy's work. I also respect his Sherpa legacy which started out as very benevolent, but has since become a bit more weaponized with self-serving agenda, including softball questions to sponsors, etc. It is what it is and I am glad the legacy content is still online since the teaching value of the legacy content is relatively high.

- As for @Brands.International, I am a big fan of listening to my critics. However, if someone presents me a directive or a command, rather than a suggestion or critique, they have made a tactical error assuming their objective is to persuade me of some change of course. Better to use data or logic, but bring me a directive, and I will likely ignore you. If someone persists with a directive rather than inviting discussion, then they are likely a thug engaging in nonsense, and that will be called out.

At the end of the day, I do appreciate the vast intellect that exists here in this community, and look forward to using what spare resource we can bring to the table to help a few more folks become sovereign. I won't be surprised if this work lifts up 10,000 people who in turn lift up folks in their communities. I see the evidence of it all the time, including moments ago where a guy who bought a domain last week on layaway, just flipped it for $500. It is a small win, but they do stack up!

 

[Ategy]

As I said .. I understand your perspective and point of view on trying to grow the industry. I have no doubt you'll most definitely help empower people .. again .. my concern is more for those who don't make it and who do lose money. If one person makes $500 and two people lose $10 .. then I'm ok with that ... but looking at the industry average for newcomers and the quality of the book, I'm pretty sure the end result will not be such illustrious math. But again .. you didn't say everything .. having a "teacher" can certainly shift numbers depending on the teacher.

You can't really blame people for having issues with your vision when you only paint half the picture and present it like it's complete!


On that note .. in all fairness to @Brands.International .. I think you might have misread or misinterpreted his post (you need to slow down a bit Rob .. lol). In his post not only did he not make any demands of you, he actually asked question trying to inquire (which you ignored and called him lame). The only directives he gave were suggestions to "you" in general, not you personally .. he used the term to mean his suggestion to the rest of "you" people. I didn't see him tell you that you must do anything.

Sure his words were to the point .. but in all fairness .. you often do the same .. as is the case here! He brought up some valid arguments and asked some on point questions that actually opened the door to helping you clarify things to him. Maybe there's stuff from another discussion I'm missing, but I don't see it here.


As for Domain Sherpa .. that's not Cyger .. that's owned by Media Options now (2 yrs) .. they keep it afloat for the same reason you want to start this book . .to help build education. They do huge numbers with domain sales and brokering .. any sponsorship money really isn't going to be significant to them in any way. They're mentioning their own things within episodes is pretty much exactly like you mentioning Epik here .. I personally don't have a problem with either you or them for that as long as the content/discussion has primary focus!

 

[Rob Monster]

Quick update here:

- @James Rayers contributed a very nice section about buying and selling Brandable Domains. This has been incorporated into a new section of the book.

- I wrote sections on (1) Shooting the Moon, and (2) Domain Leasing and Financing -- two of our most preferred techniques at Epik.

- I added a new Foreword and a "Final Thoughts" section.

The book remains a work in progress but I am hopeful that with additional editorial review from @Abdullah Abdullah and then a design refresh from @Ala Dadan we'll have a V2 out to you all early this week.

We'll then give the book the rest of the week to invite critique and new submissions and then call it the official release and allow the translators to do their thing.

In case anyone still wants to contribute a section, just PM with the details of what you want to cover and we'll see if that fits anywhere.

Thanks for co-creating!

 

[Rob Monster]

Thank you for this @Rob Monster , really insightful

Thanks -- the latest one is fully laid out and live for download here:

https://domaingraduate.com/

Enjoy! I think it will help a lot of people.

 

[Rob Monster]

Good to see the folks in Nigeria starting to do some youth outreach in Nigeria. I have no idea what will come of it all but they are making some things happen there. Good to see!

 

[Rob Monster]

Only other one cost hundreds $$ (499 lifetime)

Great constant update, however, but u cant go wrong with free

Give credit, where credit is due.

Cant wait to try,

Samer

ICYMI, the draft course is live already:

https://my.armored.net/index.php/s/dG7MkwJAp9H3L43

So, have at it. Some early reviewers found it very helpful so I think it will help some folks. I am sure it will be improve a lot in the coming days.

We have confirmed translators already for:

- Arabic
- Bahasa
- French
- Vietnamese

I am sure much more on the way. I have asked them to hold off on translating for a week so we can round up some collective input.

 

[Rob Monster]

Updated proverb:
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day ...
Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime ...
.. until too many men learn to fish and all the fish are gone!

Anyhow .. environmental depression aside .. the fate for the oceans isn't necessarily the same for domains .. more domainers does mean more competition and higher acquisition prices .. but it also means more liquidity.

I quickly skimmed through the book .. and there's a lot of good stuff in there .. and a lot of outdated/filler info. Not sure if people need to know about parking in 2019 .. or at least not so much.

Will go through it a bit more in the days ahead. Definitely take your time on this ... usually 1 week to @Rob Monster = about 17 hours .. lol .. this definitely needs a significant amount of work and updating. I would avoid putting a time limit on it and instead give it enough time to get it right!




@Michael Cyger's DNAcademy is a great course, yes it isn't cheap .. but it's worth the value for those with long term goals of being a domainer and are willing to work. He is an amazing teacher!

That being said .. when it comes to domains .. yes .. 100% you CAN go wrong with free. It all depends on the content. There are so many nuances to domaining .. and if someone only gets some of it but not enough of it, then it can be devastating! Look all the majority of horrible domains we see all over NamePros .. NamePros itself is the largest repository of domainer information in the world .. all free .. yet look at the results. The problem with teaching people about domaining .. is that it's fairly complex ... but in order to be a good domainer you also need outstanding language and marketing skills .. which obviously can't be taught as part of a quick domainer course (paid or free).

Thanks @Ategy.com.

I am delighted that you are getting your paper-shredder ready because I think it needs to go through some brutal editorial review. I was hoping you would engage. I will return the favor.

As for Mike Cyger, you know I reached out to him twice. He blew me off both times. I think we should have acquired DN Academy so he could go jogging the world. Unfortunately that did not happen.

So, thanks for helping with the free course. Let's make it so it doesn't suck.

 

[Reddstagg]

Rob,

Sorry, but I only got to the second line of text. I will read the full draft in time and let you know what I think.

"Tapping the Online Mines" - I feel that this might be a little insensitive in countries that have had or continue to have problems with land mines.

Kind regards,

Neil