status-resolved starting auction bid with word "Start"

[alcy]

recently noticed a trend from moderators to void all auctions which begin with word "START" as first bid.. instead of numeric value. while I understand this is not as per rules.. it seems incorrect to void a whole auction, often many days after it started, and which has since gone way beyond the start bid.. just because the initial bidder said START.

not to mention that probably a good 50% of all past and present auctions, with only few of them voided, have began with START as first bid. so it all ended just fine as we all saw.

I hope there can be some consideration given to allowing the START bid. not because it is ideal, but because most people here do not seem to be aware of the rule, and having every auction voided because of this, is a highly counterproductive exercise.

thanks for considering!

 

[Axc]

didnt realise posting start could void the bid
thanks for bringing it to attention @alcy

 

[-EM-]

It does not make any sense to cancel the auction once there is at last one bidder after the first bid as start. Based on the example, if the starting bid is $50 and is posted as start and the other comes with $60 doesn't mean it is against the rules (the second bidder). I can bid directly $60 and overpass the starting bid from the beginning. Also what it is even worse done is cancelling an auction with many bids, even if the starting bid is null.
I do agree with the rule if there is only one bid as "start", but I think you are overreacting here

 

[Eric Lyon]

It's a temporary issue until everyone learns that "START" is not allowed. There is currently a big red notice that appears on all auctions stating it is not allowed. The problem shouldn't exist much longer, either way.

In a week or two, if anyone continues to use "START" as a bid, it will be a blatant rule violation that we will take action against. Hopefully it won't come to that.

 

[Apprich]

To prevent confusion and avoid issues, we do not allow bidders to use the word "Start" in an auction.

Example
Auction starts at: $50
Auction bid increments: $10

Maybe word "Start" confuse people. Could we use some other words as a seller?

Auction begins at: $50
Initial Bid:$50
First Bid:$50

 

[UXela]

Aside from that, I'd suggest that if 2+ bids have occurred after "start", the bidders have accepted the pricing and it's OK to let the auction play out.

For example, an auction that's been reported with just
Bidder1 bids "START"
Bidder2 bids $60
... could be cancelled.

While an auction with
Bidder1 bids "START"
Bidder2 bids $60
Bidder3 bids $70
... should be allowed to continue as the 3rd bidder has made the informed decision to bid more than $60, regardless essentially of the first bid.

I second that.
Having auctions cancelled when reaching $100 starting from $1 with multiple bids is a waste of everybody's time.
In my opinion this canceling should stop when there is a third bid. After that it is crystal clear for the bidder and if they're bidding they're making a very informed decision.

And about notifying bidders that their "start" bid is not valid:
We're not on this forum 24/7 ... some of us do have a life (or like to think so at least).
Last night I had like 4 bids in under 1h. If the first one just bid "start" and I was doing ... other activities ... what was I supposed to do?
"Hold on babe, put your panties back on, I have a bidder who doesn't read all 1000 rules and I need to notify him about rule 999".

 

[james haw]

Us users can help out when we see a "Start" bid, if we all make the effort to:

• Not bid - so easier/quicker for mods to sort the issue as only one post to edit/remove
  
• Report the "Start" bid every time you see one - this will get more threads resolved, and let more users know it's not official and so eventually get it stopped/reduce occurance

Auctioneers should be on the ball here and report quickly as they get a notification.


Reporting it is ideal to get the thread cleaned and be notified when you can continue, because you get an alert (essentially) telling you the thread has been cleaned and is now ready to place legitimate bids. Alternatively just manually watch the thread.

 

[johnn]

Why it's difficult to follow the rules and who would have the time to monitor every auction to see if there is bid after the "START"

It's a simple solution:
Sellers suppose to monitor their own auctions and notify the bidder if they don't follow the rules because "START" means Nothing.

There is no auction outlets (Ebay, Sedo, Afternic.....) would allow "START" so why should we?

It take THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME to post a valid Bid vs START

Let rest the case because START would cause so much problems for both Sellers and Buyers.

 

[james haw]

We're open to suggestions on how to handle them in a way that is fair to sellers and bidders.

A function which stops it is not practical (the problem will eventually go away and catering for false positives is an endless task).

A simple JS popup message invoked on post might work: "Start is not a valid bid, please enter the bid amount". When:

1. Post is first in an auction thread by non opening poster
2. AND The word "start" is present in the thread

It won't catch all potentials, like "I start this auction at $50", but it's only a popup message that can be clicked to go away and the post still posted. And the false positives will likely be minimal anyway.

Once people have stopped using "Start" as much, you can remove the function to save resources (etc).

 

[21x20]

There is no auction outlets (Ebay, Sedo, Afternic.....) would allow "START" so why should we?

You can't compare an actual auction system to a forum auction system. They wouldn't allow "start" because they are built just for auctions and you have to enter just a number and then confirm your bid.

 

[james haw]

You can't compare an actual auction system to a forum auction system. They wouldn't allow "start" because they are built just for auctions and you have to enter just a number and then confirm your bid.

You are correct - however so is Johnn.

They do not allow "start" because their system requires a numerical input, but it's designed that way intentionally to not allow "start" (or anything else other than a numerical bid). Therefore - they do not allow start

 

[21x20]

You are correct - however so is Johnn.

They do not allow "start" because their system requires a numerical input, but it's designed that way intentionally to not allow "start" (or anything else other than a numerical bid). Therefore - they do not allow start

Yes, but if we want a numerical only system, then one should be designed to be numerical only... The "reply form" could be modified to be a small blank that requires only a number. No sigs, etc.

Meanwhile, the form oriented system does allow for words, banter, sigs, bumps etc. etc.

You cannot compare a forum like NamePros to an auction site like eBay. They are simply different things. So to say ebay doesn't allow something so what should NP -- well that's not a valid "definitive" to me.

All the same, I think negating the time of both sellers and bidders because one person makes a mistake at the very beginning is just a bad idea. If it's that important, let's get a system designed the prevents the human error, like EBay.

 

[sin]

I had started an auction with the start being $1 for a "liquid" dn... It had multiple bidders in the $60 range. I don't know why the auction would be reset because someone wrote start in place of 1, everyone knows it's not going to sell for 1 dollar. There were so many bids after the original one dollar start, why would it be fair to reset them? The first few bids all for small amounts weren't effected by this $1 start. And now people who were following the auction for the first three days it ran, think the bid is higher than it currently would be (with the reset). Maybe a few of them will not check back at the thread because they already looked at it. Let's say 5 people willing to pay $50 saw the auction is past their limit, so they stopped checking on that auction. Then it gets reset and these people will probably not look at the auction anymore because they think they're out...

 

[Eric Lyon]

then one should be designed to be numerical only

We are working on a solution to automatically prevent bidders from writing "start" as their bid.

In the meantime, a bid that says only "Start" is not permitted.

because one person makes a mistake at the very beginning.

It's not one person:

• The auctioneer (seller) needs to monitor and guide their auction when an invalid bid is placed; they need to immediately tell everyone in the auction to ignore that bid. If the next bidder ignores the "start" bid, then the auction would never need to be reset.
• All bidders need to ignore bids that show only "Start" as well, because when they take it into consideration, they're playing a part in invalidating the entire auction.

Everyone has a part to play and we all have to work together to prevent the issue.

 

[sin]

What if the first few bidders (under Reg fee) know they can't really win a liquid domain. Clearly a 5 dollar bid on a LLL.com is the exact same as a $1 bid or even an invalid "start" (at $1) bid prior to the 5.

namepros would reset all bids, days into progress after everyone checked it out.

 

[Eric Lyon]

What if the first few bidders (under Reg fee) know they can't really win a liquid domain. Clearly a 5 dollar bid on a LLL.com is the exact same as a $1 bid or even an invalid "start" (at $1) bid prior to the 5.

Until our system can prevent it from happening automatically for you (soon), it is your responsibility as the seller to keep your auction on track and tell everyone to disregard the "Start" bid that was placed in your auction.

If you do so immediately, your auction will not need to be reset.

 

[21x20]

It's not one person:

• The auctioneer (seller) needs to monitor and guide their auction when an invalid bid is placed; they need to immediately tell everyone in the auction to ignore that bid. If the next bidder ignores the "start" bid, then the auction would never need to be reset.
• All bidders need to ignore bids that show only "Start" as well, because when they take it into consideration, they're playing a part in invalidating the entire auction.

Everyone has a part to play and we all have to work together to prevent the issue.

It is still just one person that makes the mistake. Everyone else who doesn't catch or acknowledge the one mistake pays for it with their time and the auctioneer pays bigger in lost bids and, like @sin says -- bidders don't come back all the time, I know in his example is not bother to rebid. Any way you cut it, invalidating an auction because one person actually made the mistake -- you're penalizing everyone involved.

A general policy that allows for the invalidating of entire auctions loses money for everyone running an auctions. People have for the most pet acknowledged in this thread that past a few bids, it should matter how it all started.

Time = money ... I think this issue of invalidating auctions for any reason is really just awful for the community. Anyone running an auction here is losing money from bidders sitting on the sidelines over administrative issues like this.

 

[21x20]

Until our system can prevent it from happening automatically for you (soon), it is your responsibility as the seller to keep your auction on track and tell everyone to disregard the "Start" bid that was placed in your auction.

If you do so immediately, your auction will never need to be reset.

Btw, it is awesome you guys are working on a better auction system in general. Certainly a step in the right direction and I applaud that effort.

 

[Eric Lyon]

We recommend that you monitor your auctions more closely to prevent it from happening.

If you want to take it one step further, you can mention in your first post that bidders may not use the word "start" as a bid.

At this point, everyone has been reasonably informed and the solution is very simple. When you notice the issue has occurred:

• Sellers need to post in the auction immediately to let everyone know to ignore all invalid bids and indicate the next valid bid amount.
• Bidders need to ignore invalid bids as if they were never posted.
• Bidders and sellers have the ability to get the auction back on track by bidding the correct amount that does not take into consideration any invalid bids.

Everyone has the ability handle this gracefully themselves, without ever needing intervention from moderators. If the auction isn't set back on track by the seller or other bidders, then please notify us, and we'll get the auction back on track by resetting it.

 

[Eric Lyon]

Was Your Auction Reset?

If your auction is reset, a NamePros moderator can provide you with a list of its bidders' usernames, upon request.

You may send each previous bidder a single private message to let them know the auction has been reset and link them to the new auction.

 

[webm]

The biggest problem with "Start" is that threads being editable, seller can easily manipulate saying that the start was with a different figure (when the start does not contain a fixed figure).

Hence, a good move by Eric!