Polls

[Rob Monster]

Just wanted to support you in this post @Ategy.com. I voted a number if days ago in the poll, but to me it seemed immediately obvious that the voting was rigged for VettedName. It had 30% of the votes but no mentions (at the time) in the thread as to why anyone was picking it. I also saw it as a relatively poor name and for the vote to be at such an overwhelming majority was highly irregular. I was going to mention at the time that someone should check how many new NP accounts were voting for it, but thought better of it and deleted the comments before I posted them. So I just stopped watching the thread and decided to ignore it since I was pretty sure others would figure it out too. So I've read nothing between page 2 and page 9. I just decided to jump in again as the thread was in the 'popular this week' box. I read this last page and from your post I can pretty well guess what the pages of posts have been about so I'm quite happy I've been ignoring the thread till now. Anyway, your post seems very diplomatic and well thought out so just wanted to say so. I shall now go and hide back under my rock...

I do think @Paul Buonopane will want to look at the problem of "Ballot stuffing" and "Brigading". The technique that I think is interesting is to use a service like Maxmind that measures the integrity of a user. In the case of Maxmind score, the risk goes from 0 to 100, where 0 is riskless and 100 is almost certainly a fraud. We are using this for TrustRatings as a way to adjust ballot-stuffing using bots or proxies. I won't comment on any particular group because last time I did, the moderators considered it off-topic and removed my post. My goodness.

 

[Ategy]

@Rob Monster .. As much as that would be great .. I think what you're asking for is somewhat beyond the scope of what NamePros could and probably should do. Particularly since your "naming contests" are pretty unique. Also, a big part of the problem is that to date, you've always gone with the domain with the most votes .. hence incentivizing people (who have never seen you skip over a top vote-getter) to get as many votes as possible.


I did look a bit at the Nigerian forum in question, and a couple of people there brought up a very valid point. Namely that it's not indicated anywhere that submitters aren't allowed to ask their friends, family, colleagues to vote for them. Yes, you'd think in a contest where people are supposed to vote for the best name, people would vote for the best name, but people in all kinds of online "best picture" or "best video" contests are always encouraged to invite their friends and family to vote (usually because the website in question wants more registrations, so it's good for their growth even if it's not good for the contest). To be clear though .. that is NOT the situation here.

So in the end, while the submitter should have known better himself, we can't really be too angry with him. More importantly, we really can't blame anyone else who joined and voted for their friend .. there's no indication anywhere that it's not allowed or even that it's not wanted/encouraged (again, most websites usually want more registrations). I never really thought of that .. plus looking at that forum it seems the suggester of VettedName did reach out to you to ask if it was ok to ask his "fellow countrymen to vote for him" .. so in the end while I think think what he did was wrong, we really can't blame him.

I didn't even know who it was until I just checked that forum now and crosslinked his avatar, but I'm sorry @Etinosa for being so harsh on you .. looking at everything as a whole, I see you were just being overly ambitious, and you obviously tried to maximise your chances and you did try to find out if what you did was ok.

That being said .. unfortunately the name really is not a good one for the reasons I mentioned here, so while I personally feel really bad for you because of the obvious emotional roller-coaster this ordeal has put you through, I hope that @Rob Monster will reach out to you to explain that the domain would never have made the final cut (unless Rob indeed loves it .. in which case .. congratulations).

For the other Nigerians who did vote for VettedName .. since the rules weren't clear, I can't really blame you either. If anything, it shows you care for your friend. That being said .. many of us here take our domains and domaining seriously, so I kindly ask that the next time there is a vote for best domain, that you actually vote for what you feel is truly the best domain.

I also want to reach out to some of the Nigerians on the Nairaland forum and let them know that I read some of their posts, and some of them made some excellent points .. and some showed a lot of honour in saying what some others of them were doing by blindly voting for VettedName was wrong. It takes a lot of guts and integrity to stand up to others within your own community like that when you feel they are doing something wrong!

On that topic, I want you to know more than anything else, that I personally NEVER judge individuals based on anyone's actions but their own. For myself personally, never fear that I will judge you because you are from a certain place or are a certain race. I will only judge you based on your actions .. which is the way it should be for everyone. I invite all of you to come and participate at NamePros. While I most definitely do NOT consider myself an expert domainer yet, I have started to find some success .. so if any of you have any questions or want any pointers or advice, please do not hesitate to reach out to me!


The real story here is that if I and a few others hadn't spoken up, it seems this would have continued unchecked ... but ...

MUCH MORE IMPORTANTLY ... if the domain wasn't so obviously a bad choice, we might never had noticed "enhanced friend/associate voting" or brigading as I think you put it. For all we know there could be several others who did the same thing, but because their domains are a little bit stronger, we simply have no way of noticing or knowing. Most people in the domain community do have integrity, but just like any large group of people, there are some individuals who do not .. and there most certainly has been a history of mini-groups within the domain community who have cheated, lied, stolen and who WILL break the rules to act strictly in favour of their own self-interest rather than the interest of the industry ... THERE IS NO WAY 100% TO STOP THIS FROM HAPPENING IN FUTURE POLLS WITHOUT MAKING SOME SIGNIFICANT CHANGES!

 

[Ategy]

Also .. the other night I had a difference of opinion with @Recons.Com .. I was of the opinion that we should all be open and honest with each other and not really hold back on the pros AND cons of the various domains being submitted. He on the other hand felt like we shouldn't talk badly about other people's domains.

In the end I feel we really are operating at a handicap when only looking at the positive side of the domains, when often one negative could render what looks like a good domain into a totally useless one in certain contexts. I still feel strongly about that .. you really can't get a fair assessment without BOTH sides!

However .. where I was completely wrong .. is in forgetting that this poll was done in an open forum accessible to Search Spiders and potential end users .. and that by posting our negative opinions, we are essentially throwing each others' domains under the bus.

Even more concerning is that the domains in question could indeed be bad only for the specific situation being discussed (or completely dismissed/ignored for budgetary reasons), but at the same time be perfect for that particular end user who googled a name .. and then because they saw the negativity in the open discussion, they might take the criticism out of context .. and choose to no longer acquire the domain. Now that I remember the Google/Search factor, I feel bad for that and apologise to @Recons.Com and anyone else whose domains I might have said were not good for the circumstances of this specific project.

While people posting domains in the public areas of the forum usually is because they want constructive criticism both good and bad .. in the context of this type of contest, it's a little less obvious that the value of your domain could be hurt because of open spiderable discussions.


Going forward, unless someone is specifically asking for feedback or an appraisal, I'll try to limit my criticism to polls and discussions in the private/sheltered non-indexed areas of the forum. I highly suggest any future poll (of domains between multiple domainers) be made in the Insider's Lounge .. where there is that protection .. PLUS there's also the extra layer of protection in that you won't have people newly registering just to vote for their friends.

Finally .. an even better suggestion would be to scrap the poll all together .. because there is absolutely NO 100% WAY to stop friends from voting for their friends' domain (instead of the BEST domain)!

So in future I suggest posting a list of domains and make people POST which domain(s) they feel are the best at the top of their post .. and only count votes where below the domain(s) they support, they then also give good reasons as to why it is the best (or one of the best). If things are done as I suggested in a search-sheltered forum, then definitely invite people to comment on the cons of some of the domains as well (below the ones they support). Then when all is said and done .. make it clear the final vote count is meaningless (actually do that from the start .. lol), and that you will most value the opinions of those who made the most compelling arguments for/against, and possibly confide in a few people you trust to help you make a final decision.

I know it's super cool and extremely fun to have an open pool. As someone who actually won one of them I can say it was a great experience ... but I think going forward given the obvious potential for abuse, I really think you'll need to make a few changes/adjustments to make sure the selection process keeps as much integrity as possible.

In the end .. a big thanks on behalf of everyone at NamePros for giving us these opportunities .. given everything that happened in this pool I think it's pretty clear that it got a lot of people energised about domaining as a whole!


All that said .. if anyone wants my genuine feedback .. always feel free to reach out in private!

.. and that's all I have to say about that ... until next time .. lol

 

[TCK]

I think we are taking polls too seriously here.

If you believe that vettedname.com is a bad choice, don’t blame the domain owner, blame whoever selected it for the poll as, apparently, it is one of the finalists.

And if the expectation is that the domain with the most votes, wins, then asking friends and family to vote for it is not surprising. No reason to get upset.

IMO, this is not how to choose a domain for a project. You can invite people to submit domains but you should have the experience (between you and the team) to know which name is the best fit. Asking the public will always have slanted and subjective leaning and be limited by individual expertise.

 

[NicTraders]

I do think @Paul Buonopane will want to look at the problem of "Ballot stuffing" and "Brigading". The technique that I think is interesting is to use a service like Maxmind that measures the integrity of a user. In the case of Maxmind score, the risk goes from 0 to 100, where 0 is riskless and 100 is almost certainly a fraud. We are using this for TrustRatings as a way to adjust ballot-stuffing using bots or proxies. I won't comment on any particular group because last time I did, the moderators considered it off-topic and removed my post. My goodness.

Good luck to anyone who starts such a service. It's hard to get it right I think. Though no doubt such a service would be better than nothing.

 

[Paul]

I do think @Paul Buonopane will want to look at the problem of "Ballot stuffing" and "Brigading". The technique that I think is interesting is to use a service like Maxmind that measures the integrity of a user. In the case of Maxmind score, the risk goes from 0 to 100, where 0 is riskless and 100 is almost certainly a fraud. We are using this for TrustRatings as a way to adjust ballot-stuffing using bots or proxies. I won't comment on any particular group because last time I did, the moderators considered it off-topic and removed my post. My goodness.

We have a very strong risk assessment system, and it takes data from Maxmind into account. However, we've found Maxmind's data alone to be inadequate.

As part of this system, we are fairly good at detecting duplicate accounts. There is little chance that any significant ballot stuffing is taking place, at least in the sense of multiple votes from the same person. There could be multiple people voting from the same company, however. It's also possible for someone to have multiple accounts (and cast multiple votes) if they have a gold account.

 

[oldtimer]

There is little chance that any significant ballot stuffing is taking place, at least in the sense of multiple votes from the same person. There could be multiple people voting from the same company, however. It's also possible for someone to have multiple accounts (and cast multiple votes) if they have a gold account.

Whenever conducting a poll, it’s very important that nothing is allowed to affect the integrity of that poll. If people lose trust in the results that are indicated by the poll then it becomes pretty much useless. There is a Universal expectation of any kind of polling to be as accurate as possible which goes beyond what is being discussed in this thread. Although polls by nature can never be 100% accurate and the results should not be taken as fact, but with a small percentage that is allowed for error (usually around 1 to 5 percent) they can still give us a good idea as to what we can expect. We also need to keep in mind that people in different parts of the World give different preferences as to a domain being plural or singular and also as to the order of the keywords. So something that might make perfect sense to a group of people in one part of the World might look out of place to people in another part and so we need to view things from a broader perspective as there might be a perfect explanation for something that on the surface looks odd such as a misunderstanding or lack of proper guidelines for casting the votes. On the other hand intentional manipulation of the poll is absolutely wrong and cannot and should not be accepted or be justified in any way or form and we all should take the necessary steps to prevent it from happening as much as possible.

 

[Paul]

On the other hand intentional manipulation of the poll is absolutely wrong and cannot and should not be accepted or be justified in any way or form and we all should take the necessary steps to prevent it from happening as much as possible.

We do our best to prevent manipulation in the form of multiple votes from the same person, with the exception of gold accounts. (In practice, we don't normally see permitted duplicate accounts affecting the outcome of polls in any significant way.)

I'm not sure what additional steps you're expecting us to take. If you point to a specific poll that you believe was manipulated, I can manually verify that it wasn't.

 

[oldtimer]

I'm not sure what additional steps you're expecting us to take. If you point to a specific poll that you believe was manipulated, I can manually verify that it wasn't.

I was talking in general in terms of policy, but perhaps there should be some guidelines indicated with each poll so that people know what is or is not acceptable when it comes to the gray areas.

 

[Paul]

Regarding this poll:

• Judging by voter timezone, favorites appear to be somewhat regional.
• [This metric was requested by @JB Lions.] Among voters who registered at least 365 days ago and who have at least 300 posts, the top five results are:
  1. 38 - NameSeal
  2. 25 - DNprotect
  3. 20 - NameProtector
  4. 17 - Assurer
  5. 8 - NameAssured
• [This metric was requested by @oldtimer.] Among voters who registered at least 90 days ago and who have at least 25 posts, the top five results are:
  1. 49 - NameSeal
  2. 33 - DNprotect
  3. 32 - NameProtector
  4. 21 - Assurer
  5. 11 - NameAssured
• Four votes came from people who registered after this thread was created.
• The accounts that voted clearly represent distinct people, and they're mostly established members. I do not see any evidence of "ballot stuffing".
• The following URLs frequently appear in the Referer header for requests to this thread:
  • https://www.nairaland.com/3430037/what-make-money-online/786
  • https://www.nairaland.com/3430037/what-make-money-online/780
  • https://www.nairaland.com/3430037/what-make-money-online/782
  • https://www.nairaland.com/3430037/what-make-money-online/784
  • https://www.nairaland.com/3430037/what-make-money-online/783

NamePros doesn't (and can't) prevent people from sharing their opinions and encouraging each other to vote. These are real people casting real votes; it's not like they registered here just to vote. There's simply overlap between NamePros and that community.

 

[Vimal Kumar]

Regarding this poll:

• Judging by voter timezone, favorites appear to be somewhat regional.
• [This metric was requested by @JB Lions.] Among voters who registered at least 365 days ago and who have at least 300 posts, the top five results are:
  1. 38 - NameSeal
  2. 25 - DNprotect
  3. 20 - NameProtector
  4. 17 - Assurer
  5. 8 - NameAssured
• [This metric was requested by @oldtimer.] Among voters who registered at least 90 days ago and who have at least 25 posts, the top five results are:
  1. 49 - NameSeal
  2. 33 - DNprotect
  3. 32 - NameProtector
  4. 21 - Assurer
  5. 11 - NameAssured
• Four votes came from people who registered after this thread was created.
• The accounts that voted clearly represent distinct people, and they're mostly established members. I do not see any evidence of "ballot stuffing".
• The following URLs frequently appear in the Referer header for requests to this thread:
  • https://www.nairaland.com/3430037/what-make-money-online/786
  • https://www.nairaland.com/3430037/what-make-money-online/780
  • https://www.nairaland.com/3430037/what-make-money-online/782
  • https://www.nairaland.com/3430037/what-make-money-online/784
  • https://www.nairaland.com/3430037/what-make-money-online/783

NamePros doesn't (and can't) prevent people from sharing their opinions and encouraging each other to vote. These are real people casting real votes; it's not like they registered here just to vote. There's simply overlap between NamePros and that community.

Clearly, It was unethical. I hope the folks from the distinct group realize it.
Talking about brotherhood, I hope the folks from the distinct group also realize that we are one global village and we all are brothers. Our relation should not differ due to man-made boundaries.

 

[TCK]

Clearly, It was unethical. I hope the folks from the distinct group realize it.
Talking about brotherhood, I hope the folks from the distinct group also realize that we are one global village and we all are brothers. Our relation should not differ due to man-made boundaries.

What is unethical about this poll? It seems to be confirmed that there is no multiple voting by the domain owner.

 

[loredan]

Regarding this poll:

• Judging by voter timezone, favorites appear to be somewhat regional.
• [This metric was requested by @JB Lions.] Among voters who registered at least 365 days ago and who have at least 300 posts, the top five results are:
  1. 38 - NameSeal
  2. 25 - DNprotect
  3. 20 - NameProtector
  4. 17 - Assurer
  5. 8 - NameAssured
• [This metric was requested by @oldtimer.] Among voters who registered at least 90 days ago and who have at least 25 posts, the top five results are:
  1. 49 - NameSeal
  2. 33 - DNprotect
  3. 32 - NameProtector
  4. 21 - Assurer
  5. 11 - NameAssured
• Four votes came from people who registered after this thread was created.
• The accounts that voted clearly represent distinct people, and they're mostly established members. I do not see any evidence of "ballot stuffing".
• The following URLs frequently appear in the Referer header for requests to this thread:
  • https://www.nairaland.com/3430037/what-make-money-online/786
  • https://www.nairaland.com/3430037/what-make-money-online/780
  • https://www.nairaland.com/3430037/what-make-money-online/782
  • https://www.nairaland.com/3430037/what-make-money-online/784
  • https://www.nairaland.com/3430037/what-make-money-online/783

NamePros doesn't (and can't) prevent people from sharing their opinions and encouraging each other to vote. These are real people casting real votes; it's not like they registered here just to vote. There's simply overlap between NamePros and that community.

Ha ha, the guy just tried to pull a "Nigerian scam"

Went for NameSeal in poll, this name is light years ahead of the rest imo...

 

[domainer111]

Are you suggesting I rigged the poll for NameSeal.com? In fact, I don't think I even bothered to vote.

 

[Paul]

Are you suggesting I rigged the poll for NameSeal.com? In fact, I don't think I even bothered to vote.

I explicitly stated that, as far as I can tell, all of the votes are real. I did not say that the poll was manipulated.

I did say NameSeal was popular in Nigeria, which it was:

I also said someone was encouraging people to vote for a specific answer, and I provided links showing where that occurred. Those links appears in a large number of Referer headers for requests to this thread. I did not say anything specific to NameSeal in that context.

Personally, I do not consider anything I've observed to be manipulative.

 

[Internet.Domains]

For the most part it seems there was some campaigning going on. It is no different than what is found in any electoral democracy.

In all fairness, I see more nefarious actions done by Californian politicians.

 

[JB Lions]

These are real people casting real votes; it's not like they registered here just to vote. There's simply overlap between NamePros and that community.

It's pretty clear people registered exactly for that, just to vote. And the solutions that would help were posted about earlier, not sure if it was in one of the many posts that were deleted. Join date plus post count. Other forums do this with polls, I have done this with polls to knock out most of that kind of thing. You can only vote if you joined the forum 1 month, 2 months, whatever. ago. Minimum post count of 100, 500, 1000, whatever.

Just saw the graphic you posted, 50 votes out of 62 from Africa/Algiers. Pretty clear.

 

[Paul]

It's pretty clear people registered exactly for that, just to vote. And the solutions that would help were posted about earlier, not sure if it was in one of the many posts that were deleted. Join date plus post count. Other forums do this with polls, I have done this with polls to knock out most of that kind of thing. You can only vote if you joined the forum 1 month, 2 months, whatever. ago. Minimum post count of 100, 500, 1000, whatever.

I can very clearly see that the overwhelming majority of people did not register just to vote. They are established members.

 

[Internet.Domains]

It's pretty clear people registered exactly for that, just to vote. And the solutions that would help were posted about earlier, not sure if it was in one of the many posts that were deleted. Join date plus post count. Other forums do this with polls, I have done this with polls to knock out most of that kind of thing. You can only vote if you joined the forum 1 month, 2 months, whatever. ago. Minimum post count of 100, 500, 1000, whatever.

I agree they should not be registering just to vote. You may have missed this:

They're real people casting real votes; it's not like they registered here just to vote.

 

[JB Lions]

I can very clearly see that the overwhelming majority of people did not register just to vote. They are established members.

We can simply click on some the names and look at post count. I didn't say the "overwhelming majority" I stated a fact, that some joined just to vote. That's the truth. There are a lot of 0 and 1 post voters from Africa/Algiers. I just picked a random 5, the last 5, 3 of them are 0 posts.

 

[Paul]

We can simply click on some the names and look at post count. I didn't say the "overwhelming majority" I stated a fact, that some joined just to vote. That's the truth. There are a lot of 0 and 1 post voters from Africa/Algiers. I just picked a random 5, the last 5, 3 of them are 0 posts.

select count(*) from xf_poll_vote v inner join xf_user u using (user_id) where v.poll_id = 4157 and u.register_date >= (select post_date from xf_thread where thread_id = 1155658);
+----------+
| count(*) |
+----------+
|        4 |
+----------+
1 row in set (0.01 sec)

A total of 4 voters registered after this thread was created.

select count(*) from xf_poll_vote v inner join xf_user u using (user_id) where v.poll_id = 4157 and u.message_count = 0;
+----------+
| count(*) |
+----------+
|        9 |
+----------+
1 row in set (0.00 sec)

A total of 9 voters have no posts to their name.

 

[JB Lions]

select count(*) from xf_poll_vote v inner join xf_user u using (user_id) where v.poll_id = 4157 and u.register_date >= (select post_date from xf_thread where thread_id = 1155658);
+----------+
| count(*) |
+----------+
|        4 |
+----------+
1 row in set (0.01 sec)

A total of 4 voters registered after this thread was created.

select count(*) from xf_poll_vote v inner join xf_user u using (user_id) where v.poll_id = 4157 and u.message_count = 0;
+----------+
| count(*) |
+----------+
|        9 |
+----------+
1 row in set (0.00 sec)

A total of 9 voters have no posts to their name.

You just posted 0 posts, I said 1 posts also. Many have low post counts. And what you posted 50/62 from Africa. The poll was gamed, obviously. They're literally talking about it on their message board. You can put checks in there to help cut that down, I didn't say eliminate but it would cut down on this type of stuff. Again, other forums do this. This isn't life and death stuff, I get that, just a poll on the internet.

 

[Paul]

You just posted 0 posts, I said 1 posts also. Many have low post counts. And what you posted 50/62 from Africa. The poll was gamed, obviously.

select count(*) from xf_poll_vote v inner join xf_user u using (user_id) where v.poll_id = 4157 and u.message_count = 1;
+----------+
| count(*) |
+----------+
|       13 |
+----------+
1 row in set (0.00 sec)

Edit: To clarify, this is the number of voters with exactly one post. The number of voters with <= 1 post is 9 + 13 = 22.

 

[Paul]

We can simply click on some the names and look at post count. I didn't say the "overwhelming majority" I stated a fact, that some joined just to vote. That's the truth. There are a lot of 0 and 1 post voters from Africa/Algiers. I just picked a random 5, the last 5, 3 of them are 0 posts.

Again, only 4 voters registered after the poll started, so we can safely put an upper limit of 4 on the number of people who registered exclusively to vote. That's a very small number.

Please stop speculating about the integrity of this poll. There is simply no evidence at this time that the poll was manipulated. There's nothing wrong with people encouraging each other to vote, which is all I see happening here.

 

[JB Lions]

Again, only 4 voters registered after the poll started, so we can safely put an upper limit of 4 on the number of people who registered exclusively to vote. That's a very small number.

Please stop speculating about the integrity of this poll. There is simply no evidence at this time that the poll was manipulated. There's nothing wrong with people encouraging each other to vote, which is all I see happening here.

Just a forum thread with the person submitting the name encouraging everybody to go vote for the name, 50/62 voting for that name from Africa. Tell me what other name has that percentage? And again, I didn't say all, but yes, some. Some could have registered before and just had accounts here and just supporting somebody from the same country.

Contrast that with the current front-runner: VettedName.com, which was a late entrant. That was a name I bought after the poll started because a Nigerian domainer suggested it. I think he told his friends to vote for it, so the poll might have a little bias on that one. The competition is still wide open.

As for VettedName.com -- I am pretty sure that this is the flag name of Team Nigeria. They are on NamePros in force, and I am thankful for them. There is so much domaining talent in Nigeria that I think it is going to surprise a lot of people when suddenly they are losing to Nigerians in auctions because they have figured out how to not only buy good domains, but also sell them for compelling returns.

More here:

https://www.nairaland.com/3430037/what-make-money-online/788