My experience with Undeveloped.com

[redmaverick]

I bought domain names in the past from top players like Afternic. The process was professional and smooth.

Typically I would make an offer by typing in $xxx and hit the submit button. The sales guy would reach out to me personally and there would be a back and forth and finally we settle down on a price.

Then I would stew on the final price for a while. Only then would I decide to purchase it or not. The whole process typically takes anywhere between a few weeks to months or even years.

Once they have the money in hand via escrow, they would then start the domain transfer process as well. Everything was smooth professional and fair.

I never heard of this company called undeveloped.com and was wondering if any of you heard about it.

I was interested in a certain dot com. I entered $xxx and hit submit to get in touch with their sales team.

The price I submitted was forwarded to the seller and it was accepted by the seller. I get a mail from undeveloped that this is legally binding and that I must pay in 7 days and that there is a VAT tax that was not included and it must be paid too. I thought the price quoted was the final amount. The VAT% was not disclosed upfront either.

I find the whole thing a bit off putting and coercive. I was wondering if this is a normal way of doing business?

This is what the clause says on their page.

6.1 Every bid the User places on a domain name which is placed on the Website is legally binding. A bid cannot be revoked. If this offer is accepted by the Provider, the User is obliged to cooperate in the transfer of the domain name. The provisions of Article 4.5 are explicitly applicable.

 

[creataweb]

Huge thread on here about Undeveloped ... have you seen it?

https://www.namepros.com/threads/undeveloped-com-experience.893201/

Tagging @Undeveloped

 

[Name Trader]

You should ask them why you have to pay the VAT? If the buyer and seller are not in the same VAT geographical district (same State or within European Community), I think is quite possible. But if not in the same VAT geographical district. Then it shouldn't be charged. IMHO.

 

[redmaverick]

Hi. Stub. Good point!

The buyer and seller are both in the US. This company is in Europe though.

@creataweb i haven't looked at that thread. Will take a look.

I just find the whole legally binding thing ridiculous when this is not an auction site. Secondly, it's a lazy way to push for sales.

You should send a personal email not an automated/canned one letting the buyer know that the initial offer stated was found acceptable and if the buyer would like to proceed. Only if the buyer consents and transfers the money should the deal be even considered as moving ahead to the next step.

Also the final amount including the VAT tax should be shown to the buyer before asking for the billing information.

Also, many buyers like me are repeat customers. If a personal relationship is formed they would be more inclined to come back for more later on. By giving an ultimatum of "you must buy in 7 days" you are being coercive. No other domain selling service does this IMHO.

 

[DAN.COM]

I bought domain names in the past from top players like Afternic. The process was professional and smooth.

Typically I would make an offer by typing in $xxx and hit the submit button. The sales guy would reach out to me personally and there would be a back and forth and finally we settle down on a price.

Then I would stew on the final price for a while. Only then would I decide to purchase it or not. The whole process typically takes anywhere between a few weeks to months or even years.

Once they have the money in hand via escrow, they would then start the domain transfer process as well. Everything was smooth professional and fair.

I never heard of this company called undeveloped.com and was wondering if any of you heard about it.

I was interested in a certain dot com. I entered $xxx and hit submit to get in touch with their sales team.

The price I submitted was forwarded to the seller and it was accepted by the seller. I get a mail from undeveloped that this is legally binding and that I must pay in 7 days and that there is a VAT tax that was not included and it must be paid too. I thought the price quoted was the final amount. The VAT% was not disclosed upfront either.

I find the whole thing a bit off putting and coercive. I was wondering if this is a normal way of doing business?

This is what the clause says on their page.

6.1 Every bid the User places on a domain name which is placed on the Website is legally binding. A bid cannot be revoked. If this offer is accepted by the Provider, the User is obliged to cooperate in the transfer of the domain name. The provisions of Article 4.5 are explicitly applicable.

You're the first buyer I'm coming across that prefers Afternic over Undeveloped. The main issue most sellers complain about is buyers that don't pay. If we make all bids non-legally binding, our sellers will see way less buyers complete checkout and an influx of fake leads.

Also based from what you write I can observe you haven't tried to checkout since the transaction was initiated since you received a second payment reminder.

If you had proceeded to checkout and completed the first step, you'd see there won't be any VAT added.

So I'm sorry to hear that you thought bidding is non-legally binding but even on all for sale pages, before you submit an offer you have to accept to our TOS first and accept that all bids are legally binding.

If you send me a message with more details, I'll contact the seller to see if he accepts to cancel this transaction. That I can definitely do for you.

Thanks,
Reza

 

[DAN.COM]

Hi. Stub. Good point!

The buyer and seller are both in the US. This company is in Europe though.

@creataweb i haven't looked at that thread. Will take a look.

I just find the whole legally binding thing ridiculous when this is not an auction site. Secondly, it's a lazy way to push for sales.

You should send a personal email not an automated/canned one letting the buyer know that the initial offer stated was found acceptable and if the buyer would like to proceed. Only if the buyer consents and transfers the money should the deal be even considered as moving ahead to the next step.

Also the final amount including the VAT tax should be shown to the buyer before asking for the billing information.

Also, many buyers like me are repeat customers. If a personal relationship is formed they would be more inclined to come back for more later on. By giving an ultimatum of "you must buy in 7 days" you are being coercive. No other domain selling service does this IMHO.

I don't agree. As mentioned above, not having legally binding offers only complicates transactions. We'd then have a lot more buyers not completing a transaction if we'd change our current model. Also note what the original poster said: "The whole process typically takes anywhere between a few weeks to months or even years." in the Afternic model. That's something we and our sellers are really not interested in, to allow transactions take months or years to complete.

This is also not correct: "Also the final amount including the VAT tax should be shown to the buyer before asking for the billing information. "

Based on the details of the seller & buyer we show an estimated total price on the for sale page. There's quite some intelligent logic in place. So when the seller, for example, is based in the US, no buyers will see any VAT calculations upfront since there won't be any VAT. The final calculation will be done after the buyer has completed the first step because we have the buyers invoice details at that step.

Next month, sellers will be able to change the logic and show the final price on their for sale pages, the VAT (if applicable by law) will then be reversed calculated at the invoice level (which we create on behalf of our sellers).

Sorry to sound a bit direct, I just want to make sure we don't spread information that's not accurate in this thread.

 

[DNWon]

Typically I would make an offer by typing in $xxx and hit the submit button. The sales guy would reach out to me personally and there would be a back and forth and finally we settle down on a price.

Then I would stew on the final price for a while. Only then would I decide to purchase it or not. The whole process typically takes anywhere between a few weeks to months or even years.

This basically says it all! This and your avatar! Why make any offer if you aren't looking to close a deal? By making an offer, "stewing on it, for up to year" you are doing a disservice to the seller by potentially pulling his name off the market, while you think it over for a year? Don't make an offer unless you want the domain name, and are ready, willing and able to close the deal. Otherwise you are just wasting everyone's time and bandwidth! You've got to be kidding me with this thread, right?

 

[DAN.COM]

You should ask them why you have to pay the VAT? If the buyer and seller are not in the same VAT geographical district (same State or within European Community), I think is quite possible. But if not in the same VAT geographical district. Then it shouldn't be charged. IMHO.

It's impossible that he has to pay VAT if it's not applicable by law. I suspect that the buyer hasn't even clicked on the checkout link.

 

[Name Trader]

It's impossible that he has to pay VAT if it's not applicable by law. I suspect that the buyer hasn't even clicked on the checkout link.

If the buyer and seller are both from the same US State, wouldn't Sales Tax (VAT) be applicable in that case?

If you can indicate the amount of Sales Tax with the Checkout Link, you could indicate the Sales Tax before they click on the Checkout Link. I think it is unreasonable to expect a buyer to have to click the Checkout Link to find out whether Sales Tax is payable or not. They should know upfront how much it is going to cost. IMHO.

 

[Ricardo M]

You should ask them why you have to pay the VAT? If the buyer and seller are not in the same VAT geographical district (same State or within European Community), I think is quite possible. But if not in the same VAT geographical district. Then it shouldn't be charged. IMHO.

They are a Dutch company. Here you pay 21% VAT over products and services. You pay them an given percentage commission which is for their service. That's where the VAT comes from

 

[Name Trader]

They are a Dutch company. Here you pay 21% VAT over products and services. You pay them an given percentage commission which is for their service. That's where the VAT comes from

But isn't the Sales Commission paid by the Seller. NOT the Buyer? Is't that also only for sales within European Union?

 

[Ricardo M]

But isn't the Sales Commission paid by the Seller. NOT the Buyer?

I reckon the buyer. Not sure tho

 

[Name Trader]

I reckon the buyer. Not sure tho

VAT is a Sales Tax not a Buy Tax. If this is being applied to their 15% commission. It should be paid by the Seller.

 

[Name Trader]

This seems to be a very muddy situation @Undeveloped. There could be VAT on the Total Sales Price or VAT on only your commissions. The VAT on your commissions would be dependent on where the seller is located (in European Union), whereas the VAT on the sale would be dependent upon both the selling and buying parties being in the same VAT location (ie same State or both in European Union). In my understanding, at least. This seems like a minefield.IMHO.

 

[Ricardo M]

This seems to be a very muddy situation @Undeveloped. There could be VAT on the Total Sales Price or VAT on only your commissions. The VAT on your commissions would be dependent on where the seller is located (in European Union), whereas the VAT on the sale would be dependent upon both the selling and buying parties being in the same VAT location (ie same State or both in European Union). In my understanding, at least. This seems like a minefield.IMHO.

Should be on the commission only. As the total product price doesn't belong to them. Only the service/brokerage fee applies

 

[Name Trader]

Should be on the commission only. As the total product price doesn't belong to them. Only the service/brokerage fee applies

Which is why I linked to @Undeveloped for clarification. But if that is the case, then why are they charging the buyer?

 

[keltron72]

This seems to be a very muddy situation @Undeveloped. There could be VAT on the Total Sales Price or VAT on only your commissions. The VAT on your commissions would be dependent on where the seller is located (in European Union), whereas the VAT on the sale would be dependent upon both the selling and buying parties being in the same VAT location (ie same State or both in European Union). In my understanding, at least. This seems like a minefield.IMHO.

For the majority stub is correct. If both parties are non EU entities and both are arranging a purchase of a non EU product (meaning not subject to VAT in itself) and from non EU countries- only bought through an EU based 'broker'. Then it would 100% be the responsibility of the EU based 'Broker' to pay any Value added Tax. It is not like a state or sales tax or anything similar to the US, its wholly the responsibility of the company/ business registered in the EU to calculate it, incorporate it and pay it - which is why for example, the price printed on any item for sale, is the final price of that item! No further 'tax' is added. VAT is already calculated into this, even in the situation above- or should've been. That's what's confusing?

However this does all depend on the TOS signed by the seller. It could be that he overlooked an agreement to pay the VAT of any sale he made through their EU based platform?

But for the buyer to see any kind of VAT billing- especially after an agreed purchase price, is baffling?
I'd be very interested to see what price would've appeared upon final checkout.

 

[Name Trader]

But for the buyer to see any kind of VAT billing- especially after an agreed purchase price, is baffling? I'd be very interested to see what price would've appeared upon final checkout.

@Undeveloped said in this case, there would have been no tax if the buyer had gone to checkout. But I don't think a buyer should have to go to checkout to know the final price he has to pay. And I agree the buyer is entitled to assume that there is no tax to be added based on any agreed price. It should have been built in, already.

I don't also understand how this can be a binding agreement without knowing the final price. It just seems weird to me.

 

[anantj]

I bought domain names in the past from top players like Afternic. The process was professional and smooth.

Typically I would make an offer by typing in $xxx and hit the submit button. The sales guy would reach out to me personally and there would be a back and forth and finally we settle down on a price.

Then I would stew on the final price for a while. Only then would I decide to purchase it or not. The whole process typically takes anywhere between a few weeks to months or even years.

Once they have the money in hand via escrow, they would then start the domain transfer process as well. Everything was smooth professional and fair.

I never heard of this company called undeveloped.com and was wondering if any of you heard about it.

I was interested in a certain dot com. I entered $xxx and hit submit to get in touch with their sales team.

The price I submitted was forwarded to the seller and it was accepted by the seller. I get a mail from undeveloped that this is legally binding and that I must pay in 7 days and that there is a VAT tax that was not included and it must be paid too. I thought the price quoted was the final amount. The VAT% was not disclosed upfront either.

I find the whole thing a bit off putting and coercive. I was wondering if this is a normal way of doing business?

This is what the clause says on their page.

6.1 Every bid the User places on a domain name which is placed on the Website is legally binding. A bid cannot be revoked. If this offer is accepted by the Provider, the User is obliged to cooperate in the transfer of the domain name. The provisions of Article 4.5 are explicitly applicable.

So essentially you're a tire kicker. You make an offer with not a real intention of buying the domain? Try this on GoDaddy or Sedo. Make an offer that gets accepted (no broker involved) without a counter and see what they say when you don't wanna pay. Yes, this is a normal way of doing business and as a seller I'm glad. I don't want my names stuck in limbo for someone who might or might not buy a domain. If you're a serious buyer, then buy the domain. Don't make an offer that you do not wish to honor. That's simply unethical.

 

[wwwweb]

So essentially you're a tire kicker. You make an offer with not a real intention of buying the domain? Try this on GoDaddy or Sedo. Make an offer that gets accepted (no broker involved) without a counter and see what they say when you don't wanna pay. Yes, this is a normal way of doing business and as a seller I'm glad. I don't want my names stuck in limbo for someone who might or might not buy a domain. If you're a serious buyer, then buy the domain. Don't make an offer that you do not wish to honor. That's simply unethical.

You got that right, I cringed when I read his buying tactics, worst kind of buyer. Not sure what he is complaining about, good that undeveloped puts it's customers first, and doesn't let buyers play games, essentially the OP is just used to playing games to lower his bid price, sorry to say nobody has time for those kind of games. Bids should be binding, to shows your seriousness to transact, if you want a price quote, you better be ready to act on it, not meditate on it for a years on end.

 

[DAN.COM]

Should be on the commission only. As the total product price doesn't belong to them. Only the service/brokerage fee applies

I keep reading more assumptions in this thread that aren't true. Where did you guys see or read that undeveloped charges VAT on the total sale price and keeps it? If the seller has to collect VAT by law, we collect the VAT on behalf of the seller and pay it out to the seller.

@stub what you're saying is also incorrect. We don't do that.

I can guarantee anyone in doubt that our accountants know exactly what they're doing and that we're doing it the right way.

The OP posted this thread because he wants to get out of the deal. So far I haven't heard from him since I proposed to contact the seller on his behalf to see if we can fix the situation (undoing the deal) for him.

 

[Name Trader]

I keep reading more assumptions in this thread that aren't true. Where did you guys see or read that undeveloped charges VAT on the total sale price and keeps it? If the seller has to collect VAT by law, we collect the VAT on behalf of the seller and pay it out to the seller.

@stub what you're saying is also incorrect. We don't do that.

I can guarantee anyone in doubt that our accountants know exactly what they're doing and that we're doing it the right way.

The OP posted this thread because he wants to get out of the deal. So far I haven't heard from him since I proposed to contact the seller on his behalf to see if we can fix the situation (undoing the deal) for him.

Can you please get your accountants on here to explain what they are doing "the right way". Because it's sounds as confusing as hell to me.

So you are not charging VAT on your services to sellers (your 15%) who are within European Community? That seems weird to me unless your commission in not VATable? Or is it included within the 15%? And if it's included in the 15%, there should be a discount when the seller is outside the European Community.

Are you only charging European VAT on the sales price, to the buyer when the seller and buyer are in the European Community? What if the buyer and seller are in Australia (or somewhere else with VAT). What is charged in those cases. As has been said already. Prices quoted by sellers should include the respective VAT. IMHO. It's the sellers responsibility to account for the VAT on sales to the respective VAT authority.

 

[Ricardo M]

As a seller i always paid on multiple platforma

I keep reading more assumptions in this thread that aren't true. Where did you guys see or read that undeveloped charges VAT on the total sale price and keeps it? If the seller has to collect VAT by law, we collect the VAT on behalf of the seller and pay it out to the seller.

@stub what you're saying is also incorrect. We don't do that.

I can guarantee anyone in doubt that our accountants know exactly what they're doing and that we're doing it the right way.

The OP posted this thread because he wants to get out of the deal. So far I haven't heard from him since I proposed to contact the seller on his behalf to see if we can fix the situation (undoing the deal) for him.

I didn't assume it i just explained how dutch VAT works. I have also all my domains listed with Undeveloped and so far i don't have issues

 

[Name Trader]

As a seller i always paid on multiple platforma


I didn't assume it i just explained how dutch VAT works. I have also all my domains listed with Undeveloped and so far i don't have issues

OK. Can you please explain whether or not you are being charged VAT on Undeveloped commissions? And if not. Why not? And do Undeveloped add VAT to the sales price for all your EC sales only. And are you paying those VAT collected to the VAT authorities in Nederlands? Or pocketing it?

 

[DAN.COM]

OK. Can you please explain whether or not you are being charged VAT on Undeveloped commissions? And if not. Why not? And do Undeveloped add VAT to the sales price for all your EC sales only. And are you paying those VAT collected to the VAT authorities in Nederlands? Or pocketing it?

Hi Stub,

The VAT system we have to work with is complex, too complex if you ask me. So I understand the questions you guys have but try to not change the question topic after each answer.

I'll try to explain how it works but it's complex so bare with me:

A: Seller is based outside of EU and is a business seller = We never charge or show VAT on the purchase price

B: Seller is based outside of EU and is a non-business seller = We never charge or show VAT on the purchase price

C: Seller is based in EU and is a business seller = 1: if buyer is a business with a valid VAT number from EU there's no VAT added / 2: if buyer is from EU and a non-business buyer = we charge the VAT of the business seller and the seller gets the VAT / 3: if buyer is not from EU no VAT is charged on behalf of the seller / 4: if seller sells to a buyer from their own country the local VAT is charged on the purchase price

D: Seller is based in EU and is a non-business seller: We never charge or show VAT on the purchase price.

Now for Undeveloped's commission:

A: Undeveloped is an EU based business seller = 1: if seller is based in EU and a business seller no VAT is added to the commission / 2: if seller is based in EU and a non-business seller we charge the local VAT rate of the seller / 3: if the seller is based outside of EU no VAT is charged / 4: if the seller is based in the Netherlands there's always VAT added to the commission

To conclude, we only charge VAT where legally obliged by law. Since we do the invoicing for all our sellers (part of being a full-service marketplace that takes care of all hassle for you) we collect the VAT if applicable and forward it to the seller when we send a payout.

Again, everything we do is verified and validated by our accountant, we process hundreds of transactions a month without a single issue so be assured that we're doing it correctly.

Kind regards,

Reza